Will Paf go for KC-135 or A310 MRTT?

[Super Falcon]

i think pakistan also need to have 5 to 7 of these becoz we have to use them to refuel our naval jets too in karachi these looks awsome man americans are retiring them and they recently given trainning to our personnalsounds like paf and usa have some thing going

 

[Mani2020]

sir our F 16 dont have big tanks in it this photo is of blk 60 we are gtiing blk 52 and we are going for KC 135

Sir block 52+ also have CFT's and of same size but the problem with CFT's is their negative impact on the maneuverability of the aircraft ,So that will be used only in extreme case

 

[Mani2020]

I say KC-135s. We operate 7 for our fleet and they have been awesome.

Jigs no doubt that they look awesome but they have a big draw back, and that draw back is their maintenance cost as they are quite old one's

Between 1993 and 2003, the amount of KC-135 depot maintenance work doubled, and the overhaul cost per aircraft tripled . In 1996 it cost $8,400 per flight hour for the KC-135, and in 2002 this had grown to $11,000
The Air Force’s 15-year cost estimates project further significant growth through fiscal year 2017.For example, operations and support costs for the KC-135 fleet are estimated to grow from about $2.2 billion in fiscal year 2003 to $5.1 billion (2003 dollars) in fiscal year 2017, an increase of $2.9 billion, or over 130 percent, which represents an annual growth rate of about 6.2 percent

Thus The USAF has decided to replace the KC-135 fleet. However, since there are over 500 KC-135s, these aircraft will be replaced gradually, with the first batch of about 100 aircraft to be replaced in the current buy. The effort to replace the KC-135 has been marked by intense controversy.

 

[Super Falcon]

the group of these awsome birds together looook cooool and threatning to enemy

 

[TOPGUN]

There is no need for more then two tankers for the vipers..

 

[Jigs]

Jigs no doubt that they look awesome but they have a big draw back, and that draw back is their maintenance cost as they are quite old one's

Between 1993 and 2003, the amount of KC-135 depot maintenance work doubled, and the overhaul cost per aircraft tripled . In 1996 it cost $8,400 per flight hour for the KC-135, and in 2002 this had grown to $11,000
The Air Force’s 15-year cost estimates project further significant growth through fiscal year 2017.For example, operations and support costs for the KC-135 fleet are estimated to grow from about $2.2 billion in fiscal year 2003 to $5.1 billion (2003 dollars) in fiscal year 2017, an increase of $2.9 billion, or over 130 percent, which represents an annual growth rate of about 6.2 percent

Thus The USAF has decided to replace the KC-135 fleet. However, since there are over 500 KC-135s, these aircraft will be replaced gradually, with the first batch of about 100 aircraft to be replaced in the current buy. The effort to replace the KC-135 has been marked by intense controversy.

Yes but if Pakistan receives 2 or 3 of these the maintenance costs shouldn't be much of a problem. We have been operating ours since the mid 90s. BTW is the KC-10 an Option ?

 

[ANG]

Hi, Pakistan should go for the A310 MRTT. They have experience operating that plane via PIA. Also EADS offers it with boom on the tail, and two hose and drogue pods on the wings. As such, it can refuel both F-16s, Mirages, and JF-17s. Thanks!

A310 MRTT Multi-Role Tanker Transport - Air Force Technology

 

[Mani2020]

Hi, Pakistan should go for the A310 MRTT. They have experience operating that plane via PIA. Also EADS offers it with boom on the tail, and two hose and drogue pods on the wings. As such, it can refuel both F-16s, Mirages, and JF-17s. Thanks!

A310 MRTT Multi-Role Tanker Transport - Air Force Technology

Paf is insisting EADS for A-310 MRTT but they are insisting Paf to go for A-330 MRTT as A-310 is out of production

 

[Mani2020]

Yes but if Pakistan receives 2 or 3 of these the maintenance costs shouldn't be much of a problem. We have been operating ours since the mid 90s. BTW is the KC-10 an Option ?

Jigs,the problem is that Paf cant afford Kc-10 as a new one cost more than 88 million dollars and USAF is not going to retire them any time soon as they have only 59 of them operational till to date also they are currently thinking of replacing there large fleet of Kc-135 which consists of ~500 refueler aircrafts

 

[Quwa]

Decided to revive this thread, get some diversity in our discussions.

As daring as it sounds, I think PAF might end up getting 2~4 A-330 MRTT instead of KC-135 and A-310 MRTT. I don't think EADS is keen on offering the A-310 MRTT program anymore, and as per article posted by Mani2020, has offered A330 MRTT to PAF. Now while A330 is more expensive than the KC-135, we need to keep a few things in mind.

Firstly, the KC-135 airframes have aged quite a bit, and we may not have access to many fly-worthy (10+ years worth of flight time) airframes. The USAF might choose to stretch them out as much as possible until replaced.

Secondly, a boom-only type for only a portion of the fleet might not be an economically feasible decision. There's no guarantee that PAF will fly a seizable number of F-16s until it actually has such a fleet in its hands. In addition, the vast majority of the fleet - i.e. hundreds of JF-17, FC-20 & Mirage ROSE-I - will refuel using hose & drogue. In fact, if Pakistan managed to get heavy-lift helicopters and make those IFR-capable, they too would use hose & drogue.

The A-330 MRTT can refuel both boom-type and hose & drogue aircraft, and since it is an MRTT (i.e. Multi-Role Tanker Transport) it also has a solid emergency-relief dimension. The MRTT can be transformed into an air hospital that can house dozens of individuals requiring urgent care...we can both transport patient from one end of the country to the other AND maintain strong medical support for them.

The cost of the A330 MRTT is indeed very high, there is no doubt about that. On the other hand, there are a lot of major air forces who are acquiring this system, including Saudi Arabia, UAE and its in the running for U.S's KC-X. So we should expect a reasonable number of international operators. Plus EADS might have learned from the loss of India (whose govt cancelled thinking A330 MRTT was overpriced), so they might be willing to relent on the cost or even offer Pakistan some offsets...this in turn might attract India back to the aircraft as well. And if U.S chooses EADS for the KC-X program, then reducing the cost of the A330 MRTT might be a more than reasonable proposition to net even more potential customers.

The other possibility might be KC-767s IF cheaper than A330 MRTT.

 

[fatman17]

Decided to revive this thread, get some diversity in our discussions.

As daring as it sounds, I think PAF might end up getting 2~4 A-330 MRTT instead of KC-135 and A-310 MRTT. I don't think EADS is keen on offering the A-310 MRTT program anymore, and as per article posted by Mani2020, has offered A330 MRTT to PAF. Now while A330 is more expensive than the KC-135, we need to keep a few things in mind.

Firstly, the KC-135 airframes have aged quite a bit, and we may not have access to many fly-worthy (10+ years worth of flight time) airframes. The USAF might choose to stretch them out as much as possible until replaced.

Secondly, a boom-only type for only a portion of the fleet might not be an economically feasible decision. There's no guarantee that PAF will fly a seizable number of F-16s until it actually has such a fleet in its hands. In addition, the vast majority of the fleet - i.e. hundreds of JF-17, FC-20 & Mirage ROSE-I - will refuel using hose & drogue. In fact, if Pakistan managed to get heavy-lift helicopters and make those IFR-capable, they too would use hose & drogue.

The A-330 MRTT can refuel both boom-type and hose & drogue aircraft, and since it is an MRTT (i.e. Multi-Role Tanker Transport) it also has a solid emergency-relief dimension. The MRTT can be transformed into an air hospital that can house dozens of individuals requiring urgent care...we can both transport patient from one end of the country to the other AND maintain strong medical support for them.

The cost of the A330 MRTT is indeed very high, there is no doubt about that. On the other hand, there are a lot of major air forces who are acquiring this system, including Saudi Arabia, UAE and its in the running for U.S's KC-X. So we should expect a reasonable number of international operators. Plus EADS might have learned from the loss of India (whose govt cancelled thinking A330 MRTT was overpriced), so they might be willing to relent on the cost or even offer Pakistan some offsets...this in turn might attract India back to the aircraft as well. And if U.S chooses EADS for the KC-X program, then reducing the cost of the A330 MRTT might be a more than reasonable proposition to net even more potential customers.

The other possibility might be KC-767s IF cheaper than A330 MRTT.

dont diagree but the issue at the end of the day will be 'availability of funds' and with our country being in the current dispensation, its unlikely that such funds wld be available soon. there is now talk of 'diverting' defence funds towards the re-hab of the flood effected areas.

if the PAF indeed wants IFR for its F-16 fleet (large or small), the best short-term option lies in USAF EDA stocks of the KC-135. not the best option, but the best low-cost option in the interim. a upgraded KC-135 could be had for 30-40m USD.

 

[Donatello]

dont diagree but the issue at the end of the day will be 'availability of funds' and with our country being in the current dispensation, its unlikely that such funds wld be available soon. there is now talk of 'diverting' defence funds towards the re-hab of the flood effected areas.

if the PAF indeed wants IFR for its F-16 fleet (large or small), the best short-term option lies in USAF EDA stocks of the KC-135. not the best option, but the best low-cost option in the interim. a upgraded KC-135 could be had for 30-40m USD.

A lot of used US military hardware will be up for sale. Some from the regions like Iraq where they were deployed and are no longer needed.

Pakistan should ask USA to pay for it.......for obviously what we have given them.

US military is facing a 10% budget cut, so soon enough they would be reducing fleet anywhere from tankers to ships.

We better grasp on this occasion.

 

[TOPGUN]

Sooner or later PAF will need a refueler for its f-16's lets see what comes out of it.. i as well agree with fatman as per low coast option for the kc-135's

 

[JK!]

Why not "relieve" PIA of the A310s they have and get these aircraft converted instead?

Acquiring replacement aircraft for a civilian airline may be cheaper than buying an entirely new military system.

 

[Luftwaffe]

And after acquiring KC-135 with-in 10-12 years those KC-135s would be much older enough to be replaced with cost going much more higher, don't just look at the purchase price tag.

It is a one time investment KC-767/A330MRTT is a viable choice in long run.