Will declare Jihad to save Pakistan: Imran Khan

[Leader]

Not unless the new system remains in power. It's in our national interests to help them stay in power, otherwise the scenario you mentioned can develop. However, seeing as Afghan Taliban mostly just stay on their side of the border and PA on theirs, a silent peace prevails between the two, this does not imply that they like each other. It's just that the fuel and spark aren't close enough to start a fire.

the new generation of fighters will be young enough very soon to fight their cause, cause that will be driven by hatred towards Pakistan for all the ills in Afghanistan... need to be realistically prepared for that...

A fact is usually accompanied by proof, that you have none of, as proven by time and endless debate.

there is more than 3 decades of history to it which stands as a proof !!

 

[Icarus]

Afghan Taliban don't stay on their side of the border. They always proclaim about Spring offensive each year when they return back from their sanctuary in Pakistan. I mean why else do you have a group called the Pakistani Taliban?

Here's where the misconception lies. The Pakistani Taliban are not the Taliban that operates in Afghanistan. They are a collection of local groups that operate as a franchise of the Afghan Taliban. They are allied with the Afghan Taliban in Kunnar and Nuristan provinces of Afghanistan but they don't usually get along with the Afghan Taliban of other areas because any cross over between them results in a turf war. In the end, it's just the name that's same, otherwise both groups are completely distinct and have different histories.

 

[Armstrong]

Well, let's rephrase it. Would ya say Pak Army doesn't mind Afghan Taliban in North Waziristan or other agencies?
From what I understand, once The U.S. leaves the region, Afghan Taliban would have a legitimate stake in Afghan government. And Pak army wants their stooges in Afghan Parliament.

My friend, you appear to have a very poor grasp of the Pashtun mentality ! Were the Afghan Taliban our stooges the last time out the Durrand Line issue would have been done & dusted.

Pakistan wants its interest to be protected viz a viz Afghanistan for whatever happens in that country inexorably effects us ! If their is a civil war there...we suffer as an equal party to the conflict even when we're not ! And it goes without saying that Afghanistan has been hostile to us from Day 1...we'd rather have our backs covered.

We didn't support the Taliban because we agreed with them ideologically but because out of expediency ! Here we found ourselves with a war ravaged Afghanistan where whole generations had known nothing but death & destruction; when the time came for the International Community to rehabilitate the country, to give them some semblance of a future...something that takes the Ak-47 out of the hands of a 13 year old & instead sends him to school...the turned backs on us ! We were left with a few million refugees flooding our cities, a war torn Afghanistan going through a period of civil war where all them former Mujahideen with their personal armies now becoming warlords of their own realms & fighting each other for more power, more influence in a country that was is chaos. Our actions were a reaction to that situation; Pakistan saw an opportunity in a group of people (the Taliban) who were not only amenable to Pakistan's interest & friendly to us but also, being mostly Afghan refugees, the ones who had suffered the most due to all that infighting. Yes their puritanical version of Islam was potentially problematic but at the very least their presence in Afghanistan insured that the infighting had stopped, that with proper aid to the Afghan Government the rehabilitation process could start. Unfortunately our attempt to make the best of a really foOked up situation didn't pan out the way we wanted it to with the introduction of the Al-Qaeeda in Afghanistan & what was once a localized puritan movement not only got extrapolated to the global stage but also got even more radicalized !

It didn't turn out the way it was hoped too but thats what happens in damage control...how the hell were we supposed to plan a contingency for the Taliban allowing people in who'd after a while take a foOking plane & ram it into the World Trade Centre ?

 

[Icarus]

the new generation of fighters will be young enough very soon to fight their cause, cause that will be driven by hatred towards Pakistan for all the ills in Afghanistan... need to be realistically prepared for that...

Inshallah, the worst is over. We lived through the age when we had to uproot an established and well-entrenched enemy. Now anything they can throw at us, will be momentary and a lot less effective.

there is more than 3 decades of history to it which stands as a proof !!

2000 years of history says that the Germanic Race and the Franks are bitter enemies thirsty for each other's blood, in the modern perspective, how relevant is that statement? Learn to live with the times, Zia was 3 decades ago.

 

[Oldman1]

Here's where the misconception lies. The Pakistani Taliban are not the Taliban that operates in Afghanistan. They are a collection of local groups that operate as a franchise of the Afghan Taliban. They are allied with the Afghan Taliban in Kunnar and Nuristan provinces of Afghanistan but they don't usually get along with the Afghan Taliban of other areas because any cross over between them results in a turf war. In the end, it's just the name that's same, otherwise both groups are completely distinct and have different histories.

You lost me there. You claim they are this and that and but and so on. In other words they are pretty much working together for their goals and overthrowing the Pakistani govt. would be a common goal for Afghan and Pakistani Taliban.

 

[vsdoc]

Armstrong where did the puritanical Islam element come from amongst the tribals?

For how long has it been there?

How did Sunni fundamentalism hop across the Shia Iranian hurdle?

You lost me there. You claim they are this and that and but and so on. In other words they are pretty much working together for their goals and overthrowing the Pakistani govt. would be a common goal for Afghan and Pakistani Taliban.

Next stop Kashmir.

Then the Uigurs.

 

[Icarus]

You lost me there. You claim they are this and that and but and so on. In other words they are pretty much working together for their goals and overthrowing the Pakistani govt. would be a common goal for Afghan and Pakistani Taliban.

It's an umbrella group consisting of many independent groups that are driven by a distinct agenda. That's what makes the Taliban so dangerous and unpredictable. There are some groups that are looking for ruling Pakistan, others want to spread their particular sect, some want control over a particular agency (administrative unit) and are fighting their own turf war. They have no unified agenda, they have no central policy. It's just a great big orgy of loot, plunder and blood.

 

[Leader]

Inshallah, the worst is over. We lived through the age when we had to uproot an established and well-entrenched enemy. Now anything they can throw at us, will be momentary and a lot less effective.



2000 years of history says that the Germanic Race and the Franks are bitter enemies thirsty for each other's blood, in the modern perspective, how relevant is that statement? Learn to live with the times, Zia was 3 decades ago.

I think the worse is yet to come from the western border...

 

[Icarus]

I think the worse is yet to come from the western border...

You think wrong.............Maybe if 21st December is the end of the world, but on any regular day, nope.

 

[Armstrong]

Armstrong where did the puritanical Islam element come from amongst the tribals?

For how long has it been there?

How did Sunni fundamentalism hop across the Shia Iranian hurdle?

I've broadly heard 3 assertions in answer to that :

1) We - the belligerents in the Afghan Jihad (US, NATO, Pakistan, the Gulf States etc.) - introduced it there as a means of winning the war. The Soviet Union was demonized to the point of it being 'Lucifer Incarnate' & it was our religious obligation to fight them - it wasn't coined the Afghan 'Jihad' for nothing.

2) Both Saudi Arabia & Iran have been fighting their dirty ideological war within our borders since the start of the export of Iranian Revolution & the counter exportation by the Saudi Religious Regimes. That ideological war..pitting Sunnis against Shias was bound to radicalize the society ! The Pashtuns are a part of that society & are predominantly Sunnis. Perhaps this also continued on during the Taliban vs Northern Alliance thing where one of side injected religion into an already fiery mix !

3) Pakistan, as a general rule, has the tendency of wising up much after the situation. And so countless hundreds of religious seminaries were built in Pakistan who'd churn out bearded babooons by the dozen ! So when Pashtunwali with its honor & revenge code was met with what could be described as puritanical Islam at the very best or Islamo-Fascism at its very worst, you have a guy whose very culture revolves around 'the gun' & now you've managed to add 'religious sentimentality' to the mix. Naturally things were bound to get out of control.

I think it was probably a mixture of all of them that led to this !

 

[Husnainshah]

My friend, you appear to have a very poor grasp of the Pashtun mentality ! Were the Afghan Taliban our stooges the last time out the Durrand Line issue would have been done & dusted.

Pakistan wants its interest to be protected viz a viz Afghanistan for whatever happens in that country inexorably effects us ! If their is a civil war there...we suffer as an equal party to the conflict even when we're not ! And it goes without saying that Afghanistan has been hostile to us from Day 1...we'd rather have our backs covered.

We didn't support the Taliban because we agreed with them ideologically but because out of expediency ! Here we found ourselves with a war ravaged Afghanistan where whole generations had known nothing but death & destruction; when the time came for the International Community to rehabilitate the country, to give them some semblance of a future...something that takes the Ak-47 out of the hands of a 13 year old & instead sends him to school...the turned backs on us ! We were left with a few million refugees flooding our cities, a war torn Afghanistan going through a period of civil war where all them former Mujahideen with their personal armies now becoming warlords of their own realms & fighting each other for more power, more influence in a country that was is chaos. Our actions were a reaction to that situation; Pakistan saw an opportunity in a group of people (the Taliban) who were not only amenable to Pakistan's interest & friendly to us but also, being mostly Afghan refugees, the ones who had suffered the most due to all that infighting. Yes their puritanical version of Islam was potentially problematic but at the very least their presence in Afghanistan insured that the infighting had stopped, that with proper aid to the Afghan Government the rehabilitation process could start. Unfortunately our attempt to make the best of a really foOked up situation didn't pan out the way we wanted it to with the introduction of the Al-Qaeeda in Afghanistan & what was once a localized puritan movement not only got extrapolated to the global stage but also got even more radicalized !

It didn't turn out the way it was hoped too but thats what happens in damage control...how the hell were we supposed to plan a contingency for the Taliban allowing people in who'd after a while take a foOking plane & ram it into the World Trade Centre ?

That was a comprehensive post. However, it doesn't explain where do we stand as of now. Also what's the most realistic scenario post 2014?

 

[darkinsky]

Thats something you don't see everyday. Jihad on his own country. Lets see where this goes.

jihad comes in every form and shape.. indian muslims also believe in love jihad or romeo jihad

 

[rockstarIN]

It's an umbrella group consisting of many independent groups that are driven by a distinct agenda. That's what makes the Taliban so dangerous and unpredictable. There are some groups that are looking for ruling Pakistan, others want to spread their particular sect, some want control over a particular agency (administrative unit) and are fighting their own turf war. They have no unified agenda, they have no central policy. It's just a great big orgy of loot, plunder and blood.

A perfect enemy to take on what you said is correct. Just like Mumbai underworld in 80s or so. Infiltration in their ranks, the old technique, will be very apt for this. Easy to create a turf war among them.

But I think it is far more complicated..

 

[vsdoc]

Thanks Armstrong.

How can Iran have any influence in predominantly Sunni populaces of Afghanistan and Pakistan?

Are any of the Afghan areas Shia strongholds?

All Taliban (Pakistani or Afghan) are Sunni right?

I can understand Saudis being interested in keeping Iran hopping on its eastern border.

Are the Baloch (Pakistan) Sunni or Shia? Same on the Iran and Afghan sides?

 

[Armstrong]

That was a comprehensive post. However, it doesn't explain where do we stand as of now. Also what's the most realistic scenario post 2014?

Thank You !

Had I known 'the bold' part I'd be sitting where Kiyani is right now ! Mine are the musings of a man with no-name who speaks what may come across as utter BS for some of the more informed people out there.