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Why's IAF unhappy about Tejas' Thrust to Weight while ok with Mirage-2000s?

^^Dont they accept good quality products from DRDO?
They have no problem accepting DRDO's balanced beam AESA for the AEW&C while rejecting SAAB Ericsson's similar product..
If they say something is inferior quality,it must be.

The thing is that IAF & IA doesn't trust DRDO for weapons which will be ordered in huge nos. i.e. for projects that involve lot of money, of course they will go for weapon systems that they have to buy in limited nos. or of limited use, but all important weaponry like the tanks, ac, howitzers, etc. are the one that are only better if they are of foreign origin (this is what they think). For eg. the IAF still trust 3rd gen mig-21s more even when they can get 4th gen tejas :hitwall:
 
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The best model for that is within our country itself - The IN, i simply can't stop praising the way IN has nearly completely switched from a foreign navy to indigenous one. Now of some 50 ships under construction, 45 of them are in Indian shipyards & the only thing that is forcing the IN to go for foreign ships is either the inability of Indian shipyards to take more orders or buying ships & subs like Akula or AC which are not possible to be made in Indian shipyards b'coz of the high tech. involved. Not just that the ships of IN are getting more indigenous but of capability either on par or maybe in some cases even better than the western tech., like for eg. the shivalik class frigates are the heaviest stealth frigates in the world. This is because of IN's initiative of trusting Indian shipyards for big ships & making there objective - to make Indian & buy Indian for nearly 3 decades now, so much the Indian shipyards have evolved that we are making our own AC (though with some delays ofcourse). It's important that IA & IAF should make this a benchmark for there own evolution into completely indigenous force, yes it will take time but than we will not be at the mercy of a foreign nation in any emergency situation.

Building a ship's hull is another thing and its a different thing to make all the machinery needed in the engine room,including main propulsion.
The ships can be called indigenous if propulsion systems too are made in india?
Normally its Sulzer,wartsilla oil burning engines,or siemens gas or steam turbines...
What propulsion IN uses? Any idea?
 
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^^ Logic does not make sense.

IAF could order around a squadron at first, test them and then order many more.
 
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When we brought the M2ks,it was our first multi role platform.
Mig 29s were pure air to air fighters and didn't cater air to ground requirements.
Mig 21s,hmm,we paid a heavy price of several crashes for widely using an excellent supersonic interceptor aircraft for a2g ops,like many other airforces.
Other ground attack a/cs weren't good A2A performers.


So when IAF got its hands on a multirole,fly by wire platform,may be they just made it easy.



As in case of tejas,we aren't in a desperate situation like pakistan for some aircrafts. Therefore,IAF wants the best out of Tejas and is tough on it.
 
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When we brought the M2ks,it was our first multi role platform.
Mig 29s were pure air to air fighters and didn't cater air to ground requirements.
Mig 21s,hmm,we paid a heavy price of several crashes for widely using an excellent supersonic interceptor aircraft for a2g ops,like many other airforces.
Other ground attack a/cs weren't good A2A performers.


So when IAF got its hands on a multirole,fly by wire platform,may be they just made it easy.



As in case of tejas,we aren't in a desperate situation like pakistan for some aircrafts. Therefore,IAF wants the best out of Tejas and is tough on it.

Not exactly sure what are you alluding to..

But in its quest to get the best out of Tejas.. the IAF is making the Tejas less and less relevant.
 
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^^ Logic does not make sense.

IAF could order around a squadron at first, test them and then order many more.

How can they order it if it isn't yet ready ? Tejas can only be ready for induction in/after 2015 in case of no further delays ...

Why it isn't ready is of course another question which I believe is due to the IAF constantly bumping up the requirements ...
 
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Not exactly sure what are you alluding to..

But in its quest to get the best out of Tejas.. the IAF is making the Tejas less and less relevant.

No,tejas isn't being irrelevant. No matter how late,Tejas has a confirmed position in IAFs inventory until today's 4th generation is replaced by the 5th gen i.e,the time when Pak-fa and f 22 raptor becomes equivalent in importance to today's Mig 21 and f 16.


IAF is miles away from attaing the required healthy no of squadrons and just like Dhruv,Lca will fill the voids and become another success story.
 
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That may translate to a 1000 combat aircraft IAF, but that does not seem to be in the minds of Planners.
Be it disdain for indigenous products or general lack of product performance the Tejas seems to be slated for no more than a 150.
The Navy may be the one that actually adopts the Tejas as its own and the N-LCA has a much better potential than the AF version.
Basically, the IAF seems to have decided on a force comprising more of heavy hitters and do-it-all medium weights rather than a three tier force.
The attitude of the IAF vis-a'-vis the Tejas seems to be that of the step-child, grudgingly carrying it along rather than with full enthusiasm. Perhaps that is how the Staff requirement of the IAF see's it.
The IN on the other hand, may have a gem in the Tejas as it gets a reasonable strike asset which is small enough to be stored in enough numbers on its carriers.

On the topic:

The Mirage-2000 also carried a lot more than the Tejas does, so even with comparable T/W .. the Mirage-2000 is able to carry more to the target.
The Tejas's T/W may be preventing it from carrying the load that the IAF wants it to carry all the way to the target and still be able to defend itself.

The IAF has, in fact, decided on a policy that concentrates its strength on one or two aircraft, most of whom are intended to be multi-role in nature, and I can't help feeling that there is a deep-seated lack of confidence in the purchasing process at the bottom of all this. Time and again, the Air Force has seen its procurement plans being delayed enormously, either because the best source of equipment cut off supplies due to some stupid political decision (Vajpayee and the bomb for instance), or because some crook in the civil service or the government wasn't getting enough, so pulled the plug. So instead of multiple purchases of air superiority, interception, interdiction and ground attack, the Air Force tries to buy planes that will do a bit of everything. In addition because procurement takes so long aircraft types that should have been retired ages ago remain in inventory, creating a logistics and stores nightmare (at one time, there were 23 aircraft types in inventory, and when we were asked to standardise the maintenance documentation, we found that some aircraft had manuals missing, even with their erstwhile suppliers!!!). So here we are, the same planes are being asked to perform as strike aircraft and as air superiority fighters. And the Air Force are also reacting to the known incompetence of HAL by trying to reduce the numbers in service,so that the mess being made on maintenance is minimised.

The Tejas case was entirely different, and it was a harmony between DRDO's delays in implementing the Tejas design and prototyping, feeding on the IAF's consequent insistence on updating the QSR, which meant further re-design. What started off as a MiG 21 replacement is now being compared to the Mirage! That is insane.

The Navy, on the other hand, has a different set of problems. It got involved in ship design much earlier than the other two services made equivalent steps (they haven't, even today), and today, with its design collaborators, it doesn't depend on DRDO any more. Their problem is on throughput; the public sector shipyards, at their impossible rates of production and laughable productivity, are holding up the entire naval programme, and giving Pakistan and China unnecessary salients in inventory which will have implications if there is hostility in the next two or three years. So when they get a product like Tejas, they fall upon it in preference to any overseas equipment (the Navy was one of the worst sufferers when we were being quarantined) and try to make the most of it. I left it out of my earlier note so as to confuse one issue at a time.
 
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Building a ship's hull is another thing and its a different thing to make all the machinery needed in the engine room,including main propulsion.
The ships can be called indigenous if propulsion systems too are made in india?
Normally its Sulzer,wartsilla oil burning engines,or siemens gas or steam turbines...
What propulsion IN uses? Any idea?

i understand what u are implying but shipbuilding is not a thing which each & every nation can go for, yes IN is still buying weaponry & engines for it's frigates or any other ships from other countries but that does not take any thing away from the IN, slowly but steadily IN is going for indigenous weaponry like Brahmos & there will be a time when apart from engines everything will be completely indigenous. Anyways no nation nowadays built any weapon systems that can be called completely indigenous, not even US, maybe for cost cutting or maybe for timely induction whatever maybe the reason.
 
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On the topic:

The Mirage-2000 also carried a lot more than the Tejas does, so even with comparable T/W .. the Mirage-2000 is able to carry more to the target.
The Tejas's T/W may be preventing it from carrying the load that the IAF wants it to carry all the way to the target and still be able to defend itself.

For this, too, the Tejas was the right answer. It just means more sorties with less ordnance on each sortie, but the end result in terms of ordnance delivered will remain the same. I still feel we should have had more, smaller aircraft, like the Tejas, rather than forming an Air Force of a few, very capable, very expensive aircraft exclusively. The Tejas not only offers an available platform, its low cost and potential rapid production, but it also offers us an opportunity to push capability down three or four levels, and hugely increase the combat potential of our battalions and brigades.
 
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It is for precisely the reason that today's wars are short and high intensity that the IAF leadership should support the Tejas and induct it in very large numbers, 500 to 600 numbers at least. That will give the IAF an opportunity to build large numbers of ground support, interception, and air parity linked very closely to divisional operations. It should be able to react to the requirements of the Army at the battalion level, to begin with, and be able to coordinate perfectly with brigade level and division level operations, driven by the brigade and divisional plans and by fresh developments during operations. What we need is the ability to offer quick, directly accessible air support in fast moving armoured or mechanised infantry offensives, or spoiling attacks against enemy resources lining up against our existing lines of defence.

The Tejas should be seen as an opportunity for the IAF to get significantly closer to the Army than has been possible ever before, largely due to the lack of adequate numbers of aircraft. This is the chance to get there, therefore. But quite apart from its effectiveness against enemy concentrations on the western front and more on the Tibetan-Ladakh frontier, the Tejas gives the IAF an opportunity to support the Navy rather better than it has so far. But that is still far away. First things first.
Wait a sec!!! So you are saying IAF not supporting it with full heart ? Well You are wrong here. IAF is supporting it whatever way it can from last 5 years but but we have lazy bunch of babus at DRDO and HAL. Tejas not yet able fire canon due to structural issues ,BVR test still take 1 year or more now except firing unguided R73 and dropping few PGM and Dumb bomb, what Tejas got and Mig 27 can't. Truth is that they are taking lot of time to develop a fully-tested, weapons-ready fighter and that underlines is- With every passing month IAF now losing hope from LCA.
No sane AF going to Induct an aircraft which not even proved its worth in trail and while you are saying that send them directly for CAS duty. :disagree:
 
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i understand what u are implying but shipbuilding is not a thing which each & every nation can go for, yes IN is still buying weaponry & engines for it's frigates or any other ships from other countries but that does not take any thing away from the IN, slowly but steadily IN is going for indigenous weaponry like Brahmos & there will be a time when apart from engines everything will be completely indigenous. Anyways no nation nowadays built any weapon systems that can be called completely indigenous, not even US, maybe for cost cutting or maybe for timely induction whatever maybe the reason.

Marine propulsion are far easier to build than aircraft engines..
India spent time and money on kaveri,but i didnt come across an indian project trying to build an indian ship propulsion system..
Be it Diesel engine plant,or any other..
Tata can easily do it,as they have experience in building car engines..
Beleive it or not ship engine apart from being much larger,is easier to build than a car engine...
 
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Wait a sec!!! So you are saying IAF not supporting it with full heart ? Well You are wrong here. IAF is supporting it whatever way it can from last 5 years but but we have lazy bunch of babus at DRDO and HAL is not able fire canon except firing unguided R73 and dropping few PGM and Dumb bomb. Truth is that they are taking lot of time to develop a fully-tested, weapons-ready fighter and that underlines is- With every passing month IAF now losing hope from LCA.
No sane AF going to Induct an aircraft which not even proved its worth in trail and while you are saying that send them directly for CAS duty. :disagree:

It is a mutual problem. the DRDO makes a mess of meeting current QSRs. The IAF then revises the QSR. DRDO flounders and the cycle continues.
 
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Marine propulsion are far easier to build than aircraft engines..
India spent time and money on kaveri,but i didnt come across an indian project trying to build an indian ship propulsion system..
Be it Diesel engine plant,or any other..
Tata can easily do it,as they have experience in building car engines..
Beleive it or not ship engine apart from being much larger,is easier to build than a car engine...



GTRE has developed the marine Kaveri by modifying the aero engine with a shaft, through which power can be delivered to a propeller. The navy has extensively tested these engines at Visakhapatnam and found that the marine Kaveri can deliver 12 Megawatts (16,000 Horsepower) of propulsion power.

Built for air force, Kaveri engine chosen by navy


the above article iv posted seems outdated , i think this is the latest info on marine kaveri...

The Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine (KMGT) engine is being developed as a power plant for propelling an Indian Navy ship with the following leading parameters:

Output: 15 MW at ISA SLS
SFC: 0.3 kg/kW-hr
Power Turbine Speed: 5800 rp)m
T E T: 1560 K (Max
Fuel: Low Sulphur High Speed Diesel (LSHSD)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...4TKK_R&sig=AHIEtbT67904NtriU6dB1iSMuPMbdUFgzQ
 
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Thats good,and i knew that..
But no details on navy kaveri..
The engine will need modifications.
It was developed as turbo jet...but for propulsion it will need to be turbo shaft...
More stages will have to be added after the cumbustion chamber.
Then there has to be reduction gearing and other auxillary systems..
 
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