Why's IAF unhappy about Tejas' Thrust to Weight while ok with Mirage-2000s?

[Contrarian]

Agree with what Joe said. Twas a cycle of incompetence/lack of any kind of experience of DRDO mixed with IAF's changing QSR's.

That said, Sancho is right. CAS is not the primary role of IAF. And CAS is useless unless there is air superiority. Air superiority while not an issue against Pakistan and like what Joe said, it means a better ability to help IA against PA but it means something totally different against China.

Not because the PLAAF fields very capable fighters, but because it has huge numbers. The airbases lined against China are limited, likely to be severely curtailed by a mass of BM/CM's early on. In this likely scenario, you need an aircraft that has least logistical footprint - that means high endurance and very capable so as to accomplish maximum in one sortie. It needs to be better than what the opponent fields. Because you cannot afford to have a 1:1 ratio in a situation as that keeps the bases occupied fully by constantly fielding new planes brought from elsewhere.

Ironically like the IAF and PAF scenario of yesteryears.

If the IAF fields something like Tejas in mass numbers, the budget for high end fighters goes down. And that severely curtails IAF's ability to keep PLAAF off IA let alone hitting at Chinese infrastructure.

OTOH, buying more of very capable fighters as multirole, automatically means that IAF can support IA against PA multiple times better than before.

 

[sancho]

So dude what are you essentially saying ? That it was started as more of a stepping stone for the military aviation industry

I guess you are refering to the N-LCA here, then the answer is yes. The idea was to help and improve the industry in first place and yes, a tech demonstrator programm would be way better, if not national and personal pride would have played a big role in the development of the LCA in general as well. That's where the project went wrong!

P.S If the Tejas is inducted...what role does it play ?

Just as you said, in the same roles as JF17 and with the same goal of beeing independent from foreign suppliers, as well as to improve the indigenous industry like JF17.
But PAFs hi level, is IAFs mid level, with F16s for the short term and J10 or even J31 in the mid to long term on the one side, while Mirage 2000, Mig 29, Rafale and possibly AMCA on the other side.

In operational terms that means, that PAF has to use the light class JF 17 in deep strikes with cruise missiles for example, not because it is the best fighter for this role, but because the F16s can't do it.
LCA might be able to do it as well, but IAF won't use it, because we will Rafale and MKI as well, which will be more effective.

All in all you have to keep in mind, that M-MRCA was just caused by the development problems of LCA and not because IAF wanted a more capable or a twin engine fighter. They prefered additional Mirage 2000s, which would be capable enough, but also easy to induct and more cost-effective. But again, the main reason was to get more improvement for our industry out of the deal and get a hand on 4.5gen techs.

If LCA would have been inducted as planned, it would be used in more roles, than it might get now, but everything took too long, that's why the demands of IAF and IN get higher as well, that's why MoD wanted more advantages from foreign countries and that's why the potential of the LCA is getting smaller and smaller.
We have not inducted the 4th gen MK1, but are developing and 4.5gen MK2, but because that will be available only at the end of the decade, IAF has to adjust the requirements to the requirements then again, which results in the silly speculations about a stealth MK3, with single display cockpit and so on.

 

[sancho]

But its small size makes it fairly good for low key power projections.

Wrt RCS yes, but we have to keep in mind that it have to take off via sky-jump, which limits the payload and fuel by far. For a carrier fighter long range and endurance are most important, that's why IN insisted on increased internal fuel tanks in the MK2 version, but the lack of enough hardpoints will hardly give it self defence capabilities while carrying a useful weapon and fuel load. Also the performance of a light class fighter with higher loads will be less, compared to Mig 29Ks performance with the same.

Its a case of what Sancho said.. in an effort to boost indigenous usage..the IN will settle for something that offers lesser range.. but gives the ability to keep in numbers.

I don't think the numbers would play a role, because the Migs can fold their wings, to a similar size as the N-LCA with fixed wings. It's mainly the point to have an indigenous carrier fighter and to get some know how and experience for future developments in the same field.

it should be a good combination. Like chess, more pawns wont help you to win the game. You need other bigger players indeed.

Which can be done in IAF, with a higher number of LCAs coupled with some Rafales or MKIs, but with the limitations of a carrier, which reduces the numbers anyway, capability is more important. We can have 20 x N-LCAs, instead of 15 x Mig 29Ks, but the Migs would still offer better strike capability.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Mirages were procured more than 20 years ago. And in that time the M2k has proven itself to the IAF. Not to mention the M2k was and remains today one of he most able fighter jets on earth. However in 2012 with the best fighters in the world on offer to the IAF the IAF demands not just adequate performance but superior performance. The IAF is in a position they can procure any of the very latest fighters they wish and they have been spoilt by getting their hands on the best of the best and they don't want a weak link in the fleet. As such they have set high standards for the LCA. Also I'm sure the IAF want to really push the Indian defence industry to produce a world class fighter. This is not a primary goal for he IAF as they are just customers by it must play some part in their reasoning.

 

[帅的一匹]

LCA won't be successful as a navy jet,cause it's a single engine jet.

 

[帅的一匹]

The Mirages were procured more than 20 years ago. And in that time the M2k has proven itself to the IAF. Not to mention the M2k was and remains today one of he most able fighter jets on earth. However in 2012 with the best fighters in the world on offer to the IAF the IAF demands not just adequate performance but superior performance. The IAF is in a position they can procure any of the very latest fighters they wish and they have been spoilt by getting their hands on the best of the best and they don't want a weak link in the fleet. As such they have set high standards for the LCA. Also I'm sure the IAF want to really push the Indian defence industry to produce a world class fighter. This is not a primary goal for he IAF as they are just customers by it must play some part in their reasoning.

The aerodynamic design of Tejas fuselage is sverely dilapidated. With the same TWR as Mirage, it leads to a slower max speed and fly with drag, Indian has long way To go in the aviation industry. But still a nice try in the making.

 

[MilSpec]

Mistakes with LCA Project:

1> ADA/NAL as primary developer for LCA
Although today ADA has developed as a good aviation research lab, it would have been far better of the entire project was given to HAL. since last 5 years one of the big hurdle was to get the transition from prototype to production version. If the project was a HAL one, from the onset the prototype would have been much closer to the production model.

2> Lack of clear coordination between ADA and IAF, this has never been a problem between HAL and IAF.

3> Delay by DRDO for kaveri-snecma project outline. It almost seems sometimes that some people wanted to ensure LCA did not make it on time to ensure nothing affected the numbers of mother of all deal MMRCA's.

 

[faithfulguy]

Good Question but you see there are lots of other factor which make M2k a darling of IAF.
1> Many of tejas system and sub system like Radar capability,spin stall test ,EW test still not done.
2> Tejas is a short leg aircraft while M2k is not.
3>Weapon capability like BVR,GPS glided bomb,canon firing ,rocket firing etc etc none of them not yet done .
So how could any airforce going to be happy even after 20years of development it's still in LSP status.



Good Question but you see there are lots of other factor which make M2k a darling of IAF.
1> Many of tejas system and sub system like Radar capability,spin stall test ,EW test still not done.
2> Tejas is a short leg aircraft while M2k is not.
3>Weapon capability like BVR,GPS glided bomb,canon firing ,rocket firing etc etc none of them not yet done .
So how could any airforce going to be happy even after 20years of development it's still in LSP status.

How long would it Take to test those systems.

 

[karan21]

Lol do most of the guys don't know here but Tejas right now hasn't even achieved "certification of airworthiness" by the certification authority of India. Funny right even though 2000 fight hours have been achieved without any crash. In order to achieve that certification it has to make a turn at it's certain Angle of attack and fire missile, which has not been done.

yaar accept it the Kai t-50 and Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 and tejas are exactly same size planes with 7 hard points and can carry same weight. What we have built in 30 yrs is an advanced trainer which still can't fire missiles. Suck it up guys. Although it has developed infra in India for further aviation industry, but its will at the end be a trainer in Iaf produced in 100 or so.

It will be Mk2 and amca which will be true Indian fighters deployed by India.

 

[帅的一匹]

Agian, why India can't complete Tejas project successfully?

 

[帅的一匹]

Lol do most of the guys don't know here but Tejas right now hasn't even achieved "certification of airworthiness" by the certification authority of India. Funny right even though 2000 fight hours have been achieved without any crash. In order to achieve that certification it has to make a turn at it's certain Angle of attack and fire missile, which has not been done.

yaar accept it the Kai t-50 and Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 and tejas are exactly same size planes with 7 hard points and can carry same weight. What we have built in 30 yrs is an advanced trainer which still can't fire missiles. Suck it up guys. Although it has developed infra in India for further aviation industry, but its will at the end be a trainer in Iaf produced in 100 or so.

It will be Mk2 and amca which will be true Indian fighters deployed by India.

That is the problem. You have to reach the very limit of every aspect of a fighter in the test, There is no hiding place on the water surface. Self-deception and afraid of faliure is the notable enemy of Tejas. I kinda konw the psychological of India bureaucrat, it is a devastating one.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

Lol do most of the guys don't know here but Tejas right now hasn't even achieved "certification of airworthiness" by the certification authority of India. Funny right even though 2000 fight hours have been achieved without any crash. In order to achieve that certification it has to make a turn at it's certain Angle of attack and fire missile, which has not been done.

yaar accept it the Kai t-50 and Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 and tejas are exactly same size planes with 7 hard points and can carry same weight. What we have built in 30 yrs is an advanced trainer which still can't fire missiles. Suck it up guys. Although it has developed infra in India for further aviation industry, but its will at the end be a trainer in Iaf produced in 100 or so.

It will be Mk2 and amca which will be true Indian fighters deployed by India.

What the are you talking about? Tejas has got IOC 1 and certificate of Release to service. How can a prototype fly without airworthiness certificate??

 

[MilSpec]

Lol do most of the guys don't know here but Tejas right now hasn't even achieved "certification of airworthiness" by the certification authority of India. Funny right even though 2000 fight hours have been achieved without any crash. In order to achieve that certification it has to make a turn at it's certain Angle of attack and fire missile, which has not been done.

yaar accept it the Kai t-50 and Russian Yakovlev Yak-130 and tejas are exactly same size planes with 7 hard points and can carry same weight. What we have built in 30 yrs is an advanced trainer which still can't fire missiles. Suck it up guys. Although it has developed infra in India for further aviation industry, but its will at the end be a trainer in Iaf produced in 100 or so.

It will be Mk2 and amca which will be true Indian fighters deployed by India.

30 years... sure.. with actual funding for the project beginning in 1991.
Btw gripen project started in 1982,
Project 33 - 1979,
Lavi in 1980 and J10/FC20 in 1988

That is the problem. You have to reach the very limit of every aspect of a fighter in the test, There is no hiding place on the water surface. Self-deception and afraid of faliure is the notable enemy of Tejas. I kinda konw the psychological of India bureaucrat, it is a devastating one.

say what??

 

[Obambam]

What the are you talking about? Tejas has got IOC 1 and certificate of Release to service. How can a prototype fly without airworthiness certificate??

He was being sarcastic.

Tejas is a great platform. Even your navy thinks so. Combat radius or what not matters little when it can be carried to destination by INS Gorshkov.

 

[BlueDot_in_Space]

He was being sarcastic.

Tejas is a great platform. Even your navy thinks so. Combat radius or what not matters little when it can be carried to destination by INS Gorshkov.

lol take it easy. BTW.....