Why the TTP is undefeatable

[Sayfullah]

Theory of evolution gives you no more purpose than the Theory of gravity. They merely explain the nature that we see around us.
Religion has two purposes in life 1. is explaining the nature. Who makes the rain? God. Who makes Earthquakes? God. You get the idea. Science challanges this part of the religion. Doesn't try to give you a purpose in life. That's up to you.

Turkey's secularism has been eroded by the AKP administration, sure. But it's the AKP coming to an end, not secularism. Only a few months left.

For 20 years Erdo ruled Turkey and for 20 years he never dared to openly challenge secularism and push for sharia.

Religion gives a purpose in life.

Islam gives us a purpose in life.

Ad for Turkey, I don’t care about their internal situation. All I’m saying is I’ve seen many many Turks nowadays that are against Ataturk and openly want Turkey to be Islamic. So from my experience I’ve seen many Turks becoming against secularism nowadays and AKP has a big part to play in that. This could be a very small minority but I’m just saying from my experience.

 

[LegionnairE]

Religion gives a purpose in life.

Islam gives us a purpose in life.

Ad for Turkey, I don’t care about their internal situation. All I’m saying is I’ve seen many many Turks nowadays that are against Ataturk and openly want Turkey to be Islamic. So from my experience I’ve seen many Turks becoming against secularism nowadays and AKP has a big part to play in that. This could be a very small minority but I’m just saying from my experience.

There have always been such people, they just became louder. And there will be many more Erdoğans but Turkey will always remain secular regardless.

 

[epebble]

There have always been such people, they just became louder. And there will be many more Erdoğans but Turkey will always remain secular regardless.

The Turks I knew in California were more like Mehmet Oz than Islamic. Is there a continuum like that or is it a sharp divide (between seculars and Islamists)?

 

[TheSolution]

Why?

Because:

@ 14:28 & @ 15:15

That's what happens when you have incompetent boomers running your institutions.

An intelligence agency can't even collect on-ground intelligence and is caught by surprise about things even locals knew about

Do we laugh about this or cry?

 

[TheSolution]

What both of them are implying is that high ranking officer of ISI knew, but feigned ignorance, because they wanted to keep militants for their own use e.g. in Kashmir

What year is this? Because Kashmir recently has been dead in terms of insurgency.

Plus that's a horrible strategy because as we see the militancy severely impacted us the most, even till this day

 

[TheSolution]

Imtiaz said "in those days" so they were talking of 90s or 80s probably
But what they are pointing out is the mind set of agency

Well right now militancy affects us the most in the form of TTP, etc.

 

[Super Falcon]

Pak should now make clear cut policy no negotiation or cease fire go all out against them best way of Defence is offence make them hide before they can attack us

 

[LegionnairE]

The Turks I knew in California were more like Mehmet Oz than Islamic. Is there a continuum like that or is it a sharp divide (between seculars and Islamists)?

It's like Autism, it's a spectrum.

The most dangerous ones are cultists. They have little regard for the country or it's institutions and constantly compete for power. All government institutions are infiltrated to some level by them. They consider anybody who isn't a member of their specific cult as astray or straight up infidels. It used to be that governement would fight these infiltration efforts but during the Erdoğan era they were allowed to waltz right in.

There are also religious people who aren't members of these cults, They probably vote for AKP or MHP.

There are lots of normal apolitical people that believe islam but too busy trying to survive and raise their family.

Then you get various levels of secularists, some would fight and die to preserve the founding principles of the republic. Some just enjoy the freedoms of the republic but are too lazy to protect it. etc. etc.

An intelligence agency can't even collect on-ground intelligence and is caught by surprise about things even locals knew about

Do we laugh about this or cry?

Wow that's embarrassing

 

[Menace2Society]

Religion gives a purpose in life.

Islam gives us a purpose in life.

Faith is a component of a balanced and healthy life. It is not THE purpose.

Family, work and experiences are also equally as important.

You can tell which countries are succeeding in providing a safe and prosperous environment by how their people organise their lives. Usually the fringe elements are zealots, alt right, extreme left but the majority maintain a balanced life unlike in 3rd world countries where the majority are obsessive, unhinged, conspiracy theorists, anarchists, doomsday merchants, unstable, violent and their surroundings reflect this chaos.

Ironic how you live in Canada where you are enjoying the fruits of a balanced society.

Do you know why the west succeeds in providing the best quality of life for its people? Its because they have incorporated the Jesus principles in how they run their country and how people generally live their lives. Its subtle and underlying. Its not a in your face cringefest that Christian African countries and Muslim countries do. They just do effortlessly. A bit like the Taoism and flow. China and the far east have their own way of replicating this way life which is why they are getting rapid results.

Until the majority of Pakistani understand this the country as a whole will remain in the dark ages. I don't know how many generations it will take to realise this, I will patiently wait. Surely no more than 20 years.

 

[LegionnairE]

Faith is a component of a balanced and healthy life. It is not THE purpose.

Family, work and experiences are also equally as important.

You can tell which countries are succeeding in providing a safe and prosperous environment by how their people organise their lives. Usually the fringe elements are zealots, alt right, extreme left but the majority maintain a balanced life unlike in 3rd world countries where the majority are obsessive, unhinged, conspiracy theorists, anarchists, doomsday merchants, unstable, violent and their surroundings reflect this chaos.

Ironic how you live in Canada where you are enjoying the fruits of a balanced society.

Do you know why the west succeeds in providing the best quality of life for its people? Its because they have incorporated the Jesus principles in how they run their country and how people generally live their lives. Its subtle and underlying. Its not a in your face cringefest that Christian African countries and Muslim countries do. They just do effortlessly. A bit like the Taoism and flow. China and the far east have their own way of replicating this way life which is why they are getting rapid results.

Until the majority of Pakistani understand this the country as a whole will remain in the dark ages. I don't know how many generations it will take to realise this, I will patiently wait. Surely no more than 20 years.

Yeah well, Canada has their own problems, Earlier last year Justin Trudeau was freezing bank accounts of protesters.

I would say that Western Civilization peaked around 1910s right before the WWI. The world wars ruined everything. It was pretty good for countries like Pakistan that was finally able to break the shackles of colonialism but it was davastating for the west.

But yeah, if you want to be extreme about something, be extremely patriotic and nationalistic.

I don't know a single country that got saved by religious extremism.

 

[FuturePAF]

Impossible, you'll start a war you are set to lose because 98% of people would be against it.

In reality Pakistan only needs to do the bare minimum to have the narrative edge over religious extremist organisations.

Society is opening up but it's going to have the basic redlines of the average Muslim because it's still a Muslim state, and if you cross those then that's what TTP will take very good advantage of.

Literally just cancel LGBT endorsement by the state, cancel any propogation of modern feminism. And regulate religious preachers at the same time, then you'll be fine. Majority of the population will be fine with it.

What Specific LGBT/Feminist policies/laws do you see the state has enacted that give this impression? It’s a slippery slope to label things Pro-LGBT or Pro-Feminist when you expect people to also feel they are protect by the law and can go about working or going to school.

A lot of social ills can be dealt with enforcing laws/cultural mores across the board on all people, such as public displays of PDA and professional dress codes in work and education, as in East Asian countries.

We don’t need to be bogged down in the culture wars when we need to just reaffirm our basic cultural mores and move on to ending the decades of humiliation we have done to ourselves.

As for the cultural mores in Pashtun majority areas, they are what they are, but the state can’t be in the business of enforcing them or allowing others to enforce them, beyond requiring business and government offices to allow those that want to abide by them to have the accommodations to adhere to them, as was done in Saudi with the women’s facilities under the “Family Section” of most places.

 

[Signalian]

agency which keeps militant orgs alive

Not after 2002 leading to 2007 debacle and from then on till now. Basically not since past 20 years.

 

[FuturePAF]

Usually the fringe elements are zealots, alt right, extreme left but the majority maintain a balanced life unlike in 3rd world countries where the majority are obsessive, unhinged, conspiracy theorists, anarchists, doomsday merchants, unstable, violent and their surroundings reflect this chaos.

This is unfair to expect the common men and women to act a certain way when the culture is shaped from above. the onus shouldn’t fall on the majority of the public that is just trying to survive and make sense of the world through the lens they have been provided to judge the world.

Outside of the domain of culture, what is the state of our labor movement. What power do Labor unions have in Pakistan to demand better pay, working conditions, better management of the companies they work in, and ultimately good governance from the state so they aren’t laid off when, for example, the textile industry is hit by a loss of electricity or the current account deficit or whatever economic hinderance are put their way.

The people are powerless, most living little better then medieval serfs.

The TTP’s message probably resonating with some, the same reason way criminal street gangs and mafias around the world can recruit; it makes them feel like they have some control over at least some of their own way of life.

We need good governance, the rule of law, and a stable economic growth with investment into these areas, and you will see these militants not dare to rock the boat, because their neighbors will keep them in check. We are talking about a few billions more into these areas on a yearly basis, but are we willing to reorient our society and tax code to achieve national interests at the expense of some of the lifestyle of the elite. The longer we take to allow this problem to fester, the more we squander this opportunity to reset the local and region dynamics, a possibility that took decades of national suffering to happen and may close in a few years.

 

[TheSolution]

What Specific LGBT/Feminist policies/laws do you see the state has enacted that give this impression? It’s a slippery slope to label things Pro-LGBT or Pro-Feminist when you expect people to also feel they are protect by the law and can go about working or going to school.

Pakistan Just Passed One of the World's Most Progressive Trans Rights Bills

The president still has to sign the bill, but it’s already a major win for trans rights.

www.globalcitizen.org

Aurat March - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

A lot of social ills can be dealt with enforcing laws/cultural mores across the board on all people, such as public displays of PDA and professional dress codes in work and education, as in East Asian countries.

We don’t need to be bogged down in the culture wars when we need to just reaffirm our basic cultural mores and move on to ending the decades of humiliation we have done to ourselves.

As for the cultural mores in Pashtun majority areas, they are what they are, but the state can’t be in the business of enforcing them or allowing others to enforce them, beyond requiring business and government offices to allow those that want to abide by them to have the accommodations to adhere to them, as was done in Saudi with the women’s facilities under the “Family Section” of most places.

I agree with all of this, but to be honest I'm not focused on trying to police everyone's day to day lives in non-professional environments - I don't think it's to the level where that's even required.

I meant more in terms of the organisations that try to gain influence whether NGO, or polticial, and regarding laws. If you can control these then you will have the narrative edge against extremist militants.

Just covertly control elements that seek to build power (whether it be normal social media influence or political power) that support things support such elements of destabilisation. (Extreme feminist movements, extreme liberal movements, LGBT movements).

So imagine feminist movements on social media targeting Pakistanis. Or extreme liberal movements involving LGBT, etc. Don't give them space to gain traction. Covertly finish them.

You can do this through various covert means to stunt their growth and support within society.

 

[FuturePAF]

Pakistan Just Passed One of the World's Most Progressive Trans Rights Bills

The president still has to sign the bill, but it’s already a major win for trans rights.

www.globalcitizen.org

Aurat March - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I agree with all of this, but to be honest I'm not focused on trying to police everyone's day to day lives in non-professional environments - I don't think it's to the level where that's even required.

I meant more in terms of the organisations that try to gain influence whether NGO, or polticial, and regarding laws. If you can control these then you will have the narrative edge against extremist militants.

Just covertly control elements that seek to build power (whether it be normal social media influence or political power) that support things support such elements of destabilisation. (Extreme feminist movements, extreme liberal movements, LGBT movements).

So imagine feminist movements on social media targeting Pakistanis. Or extreme liberal movements involving LGBT, etc. Don't give them space to gain traction. Covertly finish them.

You can do this through various covert means to stunt their growth and support within society.

You say “extreme” but your examples are about trans people having basic human rights and women marching to demand their rights. Granted it may have people that try to hijack the demands of the majority of these two aggrieved demographics, but they should be dealt with diplomatically and not allowed to take away the attention from the overall purpose; rule of law. NGOs and civil society groups are going to do what ever they want, but unless the majority want that change or can influence the powerful to change the laws, it is not something to be overly worried about. Better to focus on enforcing the laws across the board , and not losing the focus on the economy. This includes preventing the laundering and smuggling of dollars and resources out of Pakistan via Afghanistan.

Manage our water, boost our agricultural productivity, cut back on waste, recycle waste into resources we need just as natural gas, in short, find ways to make people’s lives better so that they feel they have some control (and aren’t so desperate that they give into being recruited by these groups) and are being offered some help from what is suppose to be their government during these tough times. In summary, My basic philosophy is what would Edhi do if he was a politician; come up with grassroots solutions that can be implemented today.