Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C Every Time

[RPK]

Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C �Every Time

Obama, John McCain and a Leftist-controlled Congress all took glee in killing the urgently-needed F-22 Raptor fighter program. This means the US will have to defend any airspace using aging F-15’s F-16’s or F/A-18’s.




How very dangerous this is was omitted from the discussion.




Any tactician can get an idea of what will happen in real warfare by the results of military exercises. A set of exercises that pitted the aging F-15 to some of modern Russian jets, not even the top of the line models, mind you, but the slightly dumbed-down export models revealed serious weaknesses in the F-15, versus the new, highly maneuverable Russian Fighters.




The US went to India, which was equipped with a mixed bag of THREAT aircraft, to include the Sukoi Su-30MK. In mock air combat, our fighters were often destroyed by the Russian aircraft:




The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.




In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15’s radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing’s St. Louis facilities.




“The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed,” an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile’s radar. “That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community,” he said. “Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage].”




THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 “always” beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then “turning into the clutter notch of the F-15’s radar,” the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30’s relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter’s maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.




If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15’s Doppler radar—which depends on movement of its targets—until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.




“It works in the simulator every time,” the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.




Those skeptical of the experiments say they’re being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar’s ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it’s true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don’t deny the F-22’s value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft’s actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.




At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.




The simulations were reflected in mock air combat with India in Exercise Cope India 04




What we�ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.




And what gave the Indian Air Force the competitive edge needed to best American pilots, driving the F-15C? The Sukhoi Su-30 of course.









The aircraft is a modernized version of the Su-27UB and has several variants. The Su-30K and Su-30MK series have had commercial success. The variants are manufactured by competing organizations: KnAAPO and the IRKUT Corporation, both of which come under the Sukhoi group’s umbrella. KnAAPO manufactures the Su-30MKK and the Su-30MK2, which were designed for and sold to China and later Indonesia. Irkut makes the long-range, multirole Su-30MK series. The series includes the Su-30MKI developed for the Indian Air Force and its derivatives, the MKM, MKA and MKV for Malaysia, Algeria and Venezuela respectively.




...




Pugachev’s Cobra maneuver




The integrated aerodynamic configuration, combined with the thrust vectoring control ability

 

[Righteous_Fire]

Nice read rpraveenkum! thumbs up

 

[Thomas]

Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C �Every Time

Obama, John McCain and a Leftist-controlled Congress all took glee in killing the urgently-needed F-22 Raptor fighter program. This means the US will have to defend any airspace using aging F-15’s F-16’s or F/A-18’s.




How very dangerous this is was omitted from the discussion.




Any tactician can get an idea of what will happen in real warfare by the results of military exercises. A set of exercises that pitted the aging F-15 to some of modern Russian jets, not even the top of the line models, mind you, but the slightly dumbed-down export models revealed serious weaknesses in the F-15, versus the new, highly maneuverable Russian Fighters.




The US went to India, which was equipped with a mixed bag of THREAT aircraft, to include the Sukoi Su-30MK. In mock air combat, our fighters were often destroyed by the Russian aircraft:




The Russian-built Sukhoi Su-30MK, the high-performance fighter being exported to India and China, consistently beat the F-15C in classified simulations, say U.S. Air Force and aerospace industry officials.




In certain circumstances, the Su-30 can use its maneuverability, enhanced by thrust-vectoring nozzles, and speed to fool the F-15’s radar, fire two missiles and escape before the U.S. fighter can adequately respond. This is according to Air Force officials who have seen the results of extensive studies of multi-aircraft engagements conducted in a complex of 360-deg. simulation domes at Boeing’s St. Louis facilities.




“The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed,” an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile’s radar. “That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community,” he said. “Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage].”




THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 “always” beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then “turning into the clutter notch of the F-15’s radar,” the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30’s relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter’s maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.




If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15’s Doppler radar—which depends on movement of its targets—until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

Positioned below the F-15, the Su-30 then uses its passive infrared sensor to frame the U.S. fighter against the sky with no background clutter. The Russian fighter then takes its second shot, this time with the IR missile, and accelerates out of danger.




“It works in the simulator every time,” the Air Force official said. However, he did point out that U.S. pilots are flying both aircraft in the tests. Few countries maintain a pilot corps with the air-to-air combat skills needed to fly these scenarios, said an aerospace industry official involved in stealth fighter programs.




Those skeptical of the experiments say they’re being used to justify the new Aim-9X high-off-boresight, short-range missile and its helmet-mounted cuing system, the F-22 as an air superiority fighter and, possibly, the development of a new long-range air-to-air missile that could match the F-22 radar’s ability to find targets at around 120 mi. They contend that the Su-30MK can only get its BVR missile shot off first against a large radar target like the F-15. While it’s true that the Su-30 MK would not succeed against the stealthy F-22 or F-35, neither would it regularly beat the nonstealthy (but relatively small radar cross section) F-16 or F/A-18E/F, they said. These analysts don’t deny the F-22’s value as an air-to-air fighter, but say the aircraft’s actual operational value will be greatest in the penetrating strike, air defense suppression and electronic jamming roles.




At the same time, there may be more to the simulations than justifying new weaponry, say European analysts. Also at play are some tactical wrinkles being developed for the more effective use of new Russian missile versions.




The simulations were reflected in mock air combat with India in Exercise Cope India 04




What we�ve seen in the last two weeks is, the IAF can stand toe-to-toe with best AF in the world.




And what gave the Indian Air Force the competitive edge needed to best American pilots, driving the F-15C? The Sukhoi Su-30 of course.









The aircraft is a modernized version of the Su-27UB and has several variants. The Su-30K and Su-30MK series have had commercial success. The variants are manufactured by competing organizations: KnAAPO and the IRKUT Corporation, both of which come under the Sukhoi group’s umbrella. KnAAPO manufactures the Su-30MKK and the Su-30MK2, which were designed for and sold to China and later Indonesia. Irkut makes the long-range, multirole Su-30MK series. The series includes the Su-30MKI developed for the Indian Air Force and its derivatives, the MKM, MKA and MKV for Malaysia, Algeria and Venezuela respectively.




...




Pugachev’s Cobra maneuver




The integrated aerodynamic configuration, combined with the thrust vectoring control ability

I'm curious can you please list the source links for the areas I put in bold?

 

[Thomas]

Here is a assessment by an air force pilot that flew against Su-30 in red flag exercises this last year.

US Air Force pilots flyingBoeing F-15s “dominated” and “amazed” Indian Air Force Sukhoi Su-30MKI pilots in a recent exercise, but still expect that legacy F-15s andLockheed Martin F-16s will swiftly lose their competitive edge to the Russian export fighters.

Those remarks came in an explicitly candid assessment by an unidentified USAF pilot posted on 4 November on the YouTube online video sharing service. “Now what I’m scared of is Congress is going to hear that and go – ‘Great, we don’t need to buy any more airplanes. No, no, no, no,’” the pilot tells an audience that includes retired air force leaders.

He adds that “it’s only a matter of time” before the IAF Su-30 pilots learn how to overcome the manoeuvre used so successfully against them at the international Red Flag exercise.

The F-15 pilots used their simulated combat experience against the thrust vectoring capability of the Lockheed Martin F-22 to exploit a vulnerability of the Su-30 in a hard turn, the pilot said.“So we start to pull in on him, and then all of a sudden you start to see the [Su-30’s aft-] end kick down and he starts doing vectored thrust,” the pilot says.

“But now he starts falling out of the sky. He’s falling out of the sky so fast that you don’t even have to go up,” the pilot adds. “You just have to pull back on the stick a little bit, pull the throttle, go to guns and come in and drill his brains out.” Even so, the professionalism and skill of the IAF pilots at Red Flag gained the respect of the USAF pilots.

However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities.“They never really came to any merges,” the pilot explains.

“What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that’s really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the ‘trons in the air.”

The pilot also says the IAF’s MiG-21 Bison aircraft, modified with Israeli radar, active radar missiles and electronic jammers, are nearly “invisible” to the F-15 and F-16’s current mechanically-scanned arrays, allowing the Indian pilots to sneak past the USAF radar screen and engage the F-15s and F-16s in dogfights.

“The MiG-21 had the ability to get in the scissors with you at 110kts at 60 degrees nose high and go from 10,000 to 20,000 feet,” he said.

The Su-30MKI deployment to Mountain Home AFB, Idaho, for the exercise was complicated by the low-reliability of the Russian made engines, the pilot adds.

“One of the things the Indians were very disappointed in, was when they FOD’d an engine out, the Russians make them send the engine back to Russia, and then they’ll send them a new one,” the pilot says. “So, not the perfect situation for them being here in the United States with those engines.”

The pilot did not identify himself in the videos, but there were several clues to his status. He wore a fighter pilot’s G-suit, and he referred to a patch on his shoulder that indicated he was a member of the Fighter Weapons School at Nellis AFB. He also referred to Nellis as “here”, indicting this was the location where his lecture took place.

 

[gambit]

Why the F-22 is needed - Su-30MK Beats F-15C �Every Time

Obama, John McCain and a Leftist-controlled Congress all took glee in killing the urgently-needed F-22 Raptor fighter program. This means the US will have to defend any airspace using aging F-15’s F-16’s or F/A-18’s.

<snipped>

“The Su-30 tactic and the success of its escape maneuver permit the second, close-in shot, in case the BVR [beyond-visual-range] shot missed,” an Air Force official said. Air Force analysts believe U.S. electronic warfare techniques are adequate to spoof the missile’s radar. “That [second shot] is what causes concern to the F-15 community,” he said. “Now, the Su-30 pilot is assured two shots plus an effective escape, which greatly increases the total engagement [kill percentage].”

THE SCENARIO in which the Su-30 “always” beats the F-15 involves the Sukhoi taking a shot with a BVR missile (like the AA-12 Adder) and then “turning into the clutter notch of the F-15’s radar,” the Air Force official said. Getting into the clutter notch where the Doppler radar is ineffective involves making a descending, right-angle turn to drop below the approaching F-15 while reducing the Su-30’s relative forward speed close to zero. This is a 20-year-old air combat tactic, but the Russian fighter’s maneuverability, ability to dump speed quickly and then rapidly regain acceleration allow it to execute the tactic with great effectiveness, observers said.

If the maneuver is flown correctly, the Su-30 is invisible to the F-15’s Doppler radar—which depends on movement of its targets—until the U.S. fighter gets to within range of the AA-11 Archer infrared missile. The AA-11 has a high-off-boresight capability and is used in combination with a helmet-mounted sight and a modern high-speed processor that rapidly spits out the target solution.

The highlighted is questionable at best and outright deceptive at worst.

Pulse-Doppler radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Velocity measurements are of course limited to measuring the component of the target velocity that is parallel to the beam (radial), since tangential movement will not affect the received signals. A target is either closing or opening, or it will fall into the clutter notch (a velocity range reserved for non-displayed clutter). Velocity information from a single radar will therefore result in underestimates of target velocity. Complete velocity profiles can only be derived by combining measurements from several radars, situated at different locations.

Modern pDoppler radars are not so lacking in Doppler processing. Whoever was this 'Air Force official' he is either a made up character or does not know what he is yakking about.

The 'clutter notch' issue is an extremely rare situation when the radar transmitter is ALSO in motion. The 'transmitter' in this case is the transmitting aircraft. As long as there is motion involved, and the F-15 is in motion, the pDoppler radar can use its own motion relative to the target to calculate target speed. Further, the -30's motion is not absolutely zero in this fanciful airshow maneuver. Even that wiki source has that caveat...

If the radar itself is moving, such as on a fighter aircraft, or a surveillance aircraft, then much more processing will be required, as the clutter in the filters will be based on platform speed, terrain under the radar, antenna depression angle, and antenna rotation/steered angle.

That mean the 'clutter notch' condition between two moving targets who are also moving transmitters is so unlikely that only very stupid fighter pilots would attempt to create that condition. He would have equal odds of success pleading to whatever deity of his religion to intervene on his behalf in the fight.

It is always amusing to me to watch gullible buyers of Russian junks going to absurd lengths to justify their purchases.

 

[tallman]

Isnt the F15 about 20 years older then the SU 30?

 

[xebex]

Isnt the F15 about 20 years older then the SU 30?

F15 is a foruth generaton fighter so does Su27. Now, Su30 MKI is considered as a 4.5 gen fighter ; half a genration superior to F15.

 

[Thomas]

Isnt the F15 about 20 years older then the SU 30?

actually the F-15 A is from the 70's. The aircraft has evolved over the years though. Under going several upgrades.

 

[gambit]

I'm curious can you please list the source links for the areas I put in bold?

Not going to happen. This is one of those hit-n-run cut-paste job with the individual have not a clue of what he read and too lazy to do even basic research to verify if what he just read has any counter-argument.

 

[pakdefender]

Reports about xyz fighter 'beating' the F-15 were meant to secure more funding for the F-22 from the congress , it didnt work and congress didnt aprove further funds for the F-22.

 

[Thomas]

Reports about xyz fighter 'beating' the F-15 were meant to secure more funding for the F-22 from the congress , it didnt work and congress didnt aprove further funds for the F-22.

please link your reference for this statement.......

 

[pakdefender]

please link your reference for this statement.......

Here you go

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html

The above is about halting further work on the F-22 , the bogey of a better plane than what's currently in the US inventory was needed to keep this program alive.

Its about jobs in Georgia , Texas and other places where this aircraft was being produced. Senators from these areas were the biggest proponents of this project.

 

[Thomas]

Here you go

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/22/business/22defense.html

The above is about halting further work on the F-22 , the bogey of a better plane than what's currently in the US inventory was needed to keep this program alive.

Its about jobs in Georgia , Texas and other places where this aircraft was being produced. Senators from these areas were the biggest proponents of this project.

Nice article and I understand that the additional funding for F-22's was related to jobs. I was wanting to know your source for

" Originally Posted by pakdefender View Post
Reports about xyz fighter 'beating' the F-15 were meant to secure more funding for the F-22 from the congress , it didn't work and congress didn't approve further funds for the F-22.

 

[tallman]

The bottom line allways is going to come back to your haveing a 40 billion dollar russian military against a 500 to 1000 billion USA military....if it comes to a fight theres more to it then just the jets.

 

[alirulesall123]

Even when you take in the differences between the two planes, there is no competition due to the incompetency of the average indian pilot.