Why Pakistan Produces Jihadists
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desiman
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this is a very very dangerous trend, the world is in for a hell of a ride.
So I was thinking of respoding to your following comments.
And in the meanwhile I moused a little further on the thread and read your following comments:
And so do you really still think that India needs to apologise for the 71 intervention in Bangladesh. The following links can also throw more light on the intervention for which you are seeking an apology calling it a terrorist training / sponsoring.
File:Blood telegram.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
also the following:
Chowk: History: Fall of Dacca
If I am asked who to blame for the debacle I would say that we were all from the common man in the street to the highest person in the office, equally responsible for it. The common man for committing the sin of keeping himself ignorant of the under currents simmering there ever since that fateful 19TH day of March 1948 when Quaid raising his admonishing finger to the Bengali students at the Dacca University convocation had warned them that Urdu will be the only official state language of Pakistan, and not trying to assess the anguish caused to the Bengalis and take measures to bring the rapprochement. The highest in authority were guilty of being too greedy, power hungry and selfish. Unfortunately we all treated East Pakistan as a colony of ours and never granted them their justly deserved status of being the ! major human organ of the Pakistan body 54 percent of the population. As power barons of the Federal government mostly haled from West Pakistan they never shared the power willingly or happily with their Bengali brethren. Imaging, the Bengalis though in majority going jubilant in 1956 when Suhrawardy got them the parity (equal treatment) with the West Pakistanis! Ever heard of a majority people happily thanking the minority people for treating them equally ? We did it again in 1971. The minority pronouncing the majority unpatriotic, traitor and secessionist! Minority forcing the majority to leave the country whose foundations they had laid in 1906! Not only, that the Bengalis were treated as unequals but it is also a fact that they were the major revenue earner for Pakistan, mainly through the export of their Golden Fibre toManchester and Dundee jute mills in the UK. They bore the major financial burden of Pakistan and happily too for more than 15 years and till 1962 the cash flow was from East Pakistan to West Pakistan. Thereafter, after an equilibrium of about two years the process reversed but not that heavily. Bengalis had, therefore, every reason to be chary of and chagrin with thesala Punzabis.(every West Pakistani was a Punjabi to them).
Had Bhutto accepted Mujib as the leader of the house then 71 would not have occured. Pakistan Army massacared Bangladeshis, it is documented by neutral and several sources even governments. Terms such as "Butcher of Bangladesh" were not coined out of some fantasy.
The world has analysed it a lot and so has India. In fact the only nation which did not allow any analysis was Pakistan. Please read below:
Fall of Dhaka 1971
also the following will help.
The Pakistan Army From 1965 to 1971
I come back again to the "Islamic identity" (canard). Due to the repeated failures of the army and the government in the misadventures and domestic policy, it was realized long back (generals were quite smart) that the only thing that could motivate the people could be the association with Islam and that is why there were always attempts by Pakistan to rally the Islamic nations and become a champion of Islam. All done only to counter India's influence which grew via NAM.
The rulers in Pakistan always chose religion to drive and justify their agenda and also shove their failures from a disappointed nation in distraught times.
The only problem with extremism is that it is like a drug, it needs a bigger dosage to get the kick every new time so the version and understanding of Islam being propogated by the Pakistani rulers also had to be accordingly laced with just a little more extremism everytime and we then arrived today.
Please recognize the problem. It is indeed the extreme theological ideology that is being propogated by your government and the army.
There is still time before a term like "Peaceful Pakistan" becomes an oxymoron.
And in the meanwhile I moused a little further on the thread and read your following comments:
And so do you really still think that India needs to apologise for the 71 intervention in Bangladesh. The following links can also throw more light on the intervention for which you are seeking an apology calling it a terrorist training / sponsoring.
File:Blood telegram.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
also the following:
Chowk: History: Fall of Dacca
If I am asked who to blame for the debacle I would say that we were all from the common man in the street to the highest person in the office, equally responsible for it. The common man for committing the sin of keeping himself ignorant of the under currents simmering there ever since that fateful 19TH day of March 1948 when Quaid raising his admonishing finger to the Bengali students at the Dacca University convocation had warned them that Urdu will be the only official state language of Pakistan, and not trying to assess the anguish caused to the Bengalis and take measures to bring the rapprochement. The highest in authority were guilty of being too greedy, power hungry and selfish. Unfortunately we all treated East Pakistan as a colony of ours and never granted them their justly deserved status of being the ! major human organ of the Pakistan body 54 percent of the population. As power barons of the Federal government mostly haled from West Pakistan they never shared the power willingly or happily with their Bengali brethren. Imaging, the Bengalis though in majority going jubilant in 1956 when Suhrawardy got them the parity (equal treatment) with the West Pakistanis! Ever heard of a majority people happily thanking the minority people for treating them equally ? We did it again in 1971. The minority pronouncing the majority unpatriotic, traitor and secessionist! Minority forcing the majority to leave the country whose foundations they had laid in 1906! Not only, that the Bengalis were treated as unequals but it is also a fact that they were the major revenue earner for Pakistan, mainly through the export of their Golden Fibre toManchester and Dundee jute mills in the UK. They bore the major financial burden of Pakistan and happily too for more than 15 years and till 1962 the cash flow was from East Pakistan to West Pakistan. Thereafter, after an equilibrium of about two years the process reversed but not that heavily. Bengalis had, therefore, every reason to be chary of and chagrin with thesala Punzabis.(every West Pakistani was a Punjabi to them).
Had Bhutto accepted Mujib as the leader of the house then 71 would not have occured. Pakistan Army massacared Bangladeshis, it is documented by neutral and several sources even governments. Terms such as "Butcher of Bangladesh" were not coined out of some fantasy.
The world has analysed it a lot and so has India. In fact the only nation which did not allow any analysis was Pakistan. Please read below:
Fall of Dhaka 1971
also the following will help.
The Pakistan Army From 1965 to 1971
I come back again to the "Islamic identity" (canard). Due to the repeated failures of the army and the government in the misadventures and domestic policy, it was realized long back (generals were quite smart) that the only thing that could motivate the people could be the association with Islam and that is why there were always attempts by Pakistan to rally the Islamic nations and become a champion of Islam. All done only to counter India's influence which grew via NAM.
The rulers in Pakistan always chose religion to drive and justify their agenda and also shove their failures from a disappointed nation in distraught times.
The only problem with extremism is that it is like a drug, it needs a bigger dosage to get the kick every new time so the version and understanding of Islam being propogated by the Pakistani rulers also had to be accordingly laced with just a little more extremism everytime and we then arrived today.
Please recognize the problem. It is indeed the extreme theological ideology that is being propogated by your government and the army.
There is still time before a term like "Peaceful Pakistan" becomes an oxymoron.
BlackSonic
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New York (CNN) -- The suspect in the Times Square bombing attempt was caught as he was seeking to flee to Pakistan, a nation that analyst Fareed Zakaria calls the "epicenter of Islamic terrorism."
"It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to the war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be traced to Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with terrorist groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's military for strategic reasons.
Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, had recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the Pakistani Air Force.
Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, Pakistan, by way of Dubai.
Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript:
CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from this incident?
Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we are as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level of vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness.
CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does that signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism?
Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. ... The British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection.
So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit people and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture.
It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other part of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, resources and ideology all feeding on each other.
CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort?
Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a number of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani government, the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a bid to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an asymmetrical capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India rather cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its army.
So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack Pakistanis and therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent that's true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, India, in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these groups are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also because the Pakistani military is beginning to take them on.
But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, to encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In the 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis...
And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is getting serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope.
CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope?
Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani government has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they are a threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk about the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different elements in it.
The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger that Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in Pakistan appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military.
The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it has to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite bravely over the last few years.
CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant groups?
Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, the United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in a neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan that is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat this Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical capabilities, their militant groups.
It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most respected Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani government has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban.
The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you want to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that since we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all lives in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government are, we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want you to shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities.
In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the idea of an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence with the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game that the Pakistanis have played.
That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there are good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to further Pakistan's goals.
CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be highly sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups?
Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of terrorism the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11.
What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and while they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, it is also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al Qaeda that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to.
To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free society, you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to make some kind of trouble.
Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' - CNN.com
"It's worth noting that even the terrorism that's often attributed to the war in Afghanistan tends to come out of Pakistan, to be planned by Pakistanis, to be funded from Pakistan or in some other way to be traced to Pakistan," said Zakaria. He added that Pakistan's connection with terrorist groups goes back decades and has often been encouraged by that nation's military for strategic reasons.
Faisal Shahzad, a 30-year-old naturalized citizen of Pakistani descent, had recently been trained in bomb making in Pakistan's Waziristan province, according to a federal complaint filed in court Tuesday. CNN reported Tuesday that Faisal Shahzad's father is a retired vice-marshal in the Pakistani Air Force.
Shahzad was arrested around 11:45 p.m. ET Monday at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport just before he was to fly to Islamabad, Pakistan, by way of Dubai.
Zakaria, author and host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," spoke to CNN on Tuesday. Here is an edited transcript:
CNN: Based on what we know so far, what lessons can be learned from this incident?
Fareed Zakaria: This does not seem to be part of a larger and more organized effort to penetrate the United States. That doesn't mean such efforts are not under way....it does make you realize just how open we are as a country and how open we are as a society. There is always a level of vulnerability that comes from being an open society and this guy, Mr. Shahzad obviously took advantage of that openness.
CNN: Apparently he traveled to Pakistan on a number of occasions. Does that signal that Pakistan isn't vigilant enough about terrorism?
Zakaria: Well it certainly signals something that we have known for a while, which is that Pakistan is the epicenter of Islamic terrorism. ... The British government has estimated that something like 80 percent of the terror threats that they receive have a Pakistani connection.
So there's no question that Pakistan has a terrorism problem. It has radical groups within the country that have the ability to recruit people and have access to resources that makes for a very combustible mixture.
It should remind us that even when looking at the war in Afghanistan, ultimately the most important place where jihadis are being trained and recruited is not in Afghanistan but in Pakistan. And there's no other part of the world where you have quite the same concentration of manpower, resources and ideology all feeding on each other.
CNN: What feeds the ideology that drives the terror effort?
Zakaria: Pakistan has been conducive to this kind of jihadis for a number of reasons. For the last three or four decades, the Pakistani government, the Pakistani military has supported, funded many of these groups in a bid to maintain influence in Afghanistan, in a bid to maintain an asymmetrical capacity against India -- in other words, to try to destabilize India rather cheaply through these militant groups rather than frontally through its army.
So it has found it useful to have these militant groups and to support them. It has always assumed that these groups will not attack Pakistanis and therefore was not a threat to Pakistan itself. And to a large extent that's true, these groups by and large have attacked people in Afghanistan, India, in the West but not in Pakistan. But that is changing, because these groups are so intermingled and often sufficiently ideological, and also because the Pakistani military is beginning to take them on.
But fundamentally the reason this has gone on is that there has been a policy of the Pakistani state and particularly the Pakistani military, to encourage these groups, to fund them, to ignore their most pernicious activities. And some of it goes back even further than four decades. In the 1965 war against India, the Pakistanis used Islamic jihadis...
And the great hope now is that finally the Pakistani government is getting serious about this. Frankly it remains a hope.
CNN: Why do you say that it's only a hope?
Zakaria: Over the last few years, it appears that the Pakistani government has begun to understand that these groups all meld together, that they are a threat to a stable and viable modern Pakistani state. But when I talk about the Pakistani government you have to realize that there are different elements in it.
The Pakistani civilian government really does understand the danger that Islamic terrorism poses to Pakistan, but the civilian government in Pakistan appears quite powerless. Most power lies with the military.
The military in Pakistan has a somewhat more complex attitude. It does believe that these militants have gone too far. It does believe that it has to take on the militants. And it has actually battled them quite bravely over the last few years.
CNN: So what's the reason for thinking the military supports militant groups?
Zakaria: It still holds within it the view that at the end of the day, the United States will leave the region and that they will have to live in a neighborhood which will have a very powerful India and an Afghanistan that is potentially a client state of India's -- and that in order to combat this Indian domination, they need to maintain their asymmetrical capabilities, their militant groups.
It is interesting to note that Ahmed Rashid, who may be the most respected Pakistani journalist, has reported on the way in which Pakistani government has thwarted and put obstacles in the way of any kind of talks between the Afghan government and the Taliban.
The message it has sent to the Afghan government is very clear. If you want to have any negotiations with the Taliban, you have to understand that since we are the critical intermediary -- since the Taliban leadership all lives in Pakistan -- the Pakistani military's terms to the Afghan government are, we want you to push back on Indian influence in Afghanistan, we want you to shut down Indian consulates in various Afghan cities.
In other words, the Pakistani government is still obsessed with the idea of an Indian domination of the region, and they're using their influence with the Taliban to try to counter Indian influence. This is the old game that the Pakistanis have played.
That's what makes me skeptical that there's been a true strategic revolution in Pakistan... There are still people who believe that there are good terrorists and bad terrorists, and some you can work with to further Pakistan's goals.
CNN: In the attempted car bombing in Times Square and the Christmas Day attempted bombing, you have two failed plots that don't appear to be highly sophisticated. Does that tell us anything about the terror groups?
Zakaria: At some level, that tells you about the weakness of the terror groups. You do not have highly organized terrorist groups with great resources and capacity that are able to plan spectacular acts of terrorism the way they were in the 1990s and on 9/11.
What you have now are more isolated, disorganized lone rangers and while they're obviously very worrying and one has to be extremely vigilant, it is also at some level a sign of the weakness of an organization like al Qaeda that it is not able to do the kind of terrorist attacks it used to.
To be sure, it's important to be very vigilant and make sure you have groups like al Qaeda on the run. But I don't know that in a free society, you will ever be able to prevent an individual with no background in terrorism who's broken no laws and is radicalized from attempting to make some kind of trouble.
Pakistan is 'epicenter of Islamic terrorism' - CNN.com
kidwaibhai
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Spoken like someone who has lived his entire life in pakistan or has spent researching it. Listen Mr Act-Now-Or-Term-Peaceful Pakistan-Becomes-An-Oxymoron all the parties elected by the people are secular parties none of them espouse extremism against anyone. The pakistani military and people are fighting every day to rid our country of the crazies so dont give us self righteous and douche lectures.
Look Sir, I am just a poor fat lala who is easily scared. So when some one tries to shoot the messenger and not the message, I just retreat and run away.
You are right about everything Sir. My mistake. I will ensure that I am not crossing your path again. All is well....
Thanks very much for your advise.
below_freezing
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funny thing is, less people were killed by terrorists in pakistan than by doctors in the US.
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
Pakistan suffers record number of deaths due to militant violence | World news | guardian.co.uk
3,021 people killed in terrorist attacks in 2009 – a 48% rise, according to Islamabad thinktank
If pakistan is epicenter of islamic terrorism, then the US is a 50 times more dangerous epicenter of medical terrorism.
In Hospital Deaths from Medical Errors at 195,000 per Year USA
Pakistan suffers record number of deaths due to militant violence | World news | guardian.co.uk
3,021 people killed in terrorist attacks in 2009 – a 48% rise, according to Islamabad thinktank
If pakistan is epicenter of islamic terrorism, then the US is a 50 times more dangerous epicenter of medical terrorism.
You are a very switched on person and understand how arguments and counter arguments are made using cognitive ability with reference of justifiable facts. I wont go in detail but will definitely register my remorse to you that i wasted my net data on a link provided by you.
Just two points
i can go on dissecting his all assertions)He never mentioned a single word about GoP which is sole (according to me, i hope partially by you) responsible for all this mess.
I am pissed of how world's most condemnable crime; throwing acid on our sisters's face has been associated with intentional conspiracy against Pakistan, if i could meet this guy personally after smacking i will tell him to stand out side the local police station for the time till those criminals are not caught.
I have never seen a single episode on star+ in my life trust me, i hate it.
Regards
kidwaibhai
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Not really shooting the messenger because you are overly generalizing but if you dont want to cross path with me again. I am not going to loose sleep over it.
P.S. Dont get scared easily its really a horrid way to live
mrwarrior006
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something BIG is gonna happen
and world is getting ready for it
---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------
welcome to the most dangerous,highly unstable part of the world
and world is getting ready for it
---------- Post added at 01:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------
welcome to the most dangerous,highly unstable part of the world
mrwarrior006
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india all these yrs cried to take a look, but world woudn listen
atlast tey are listening not from us but from the problem makers themselves
atlast tey are listening not from us but from the problem makers themselves
SinoIndusFriendship
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But you see, Earthquakes are a force of nature (ignoring what Sharon Stone claims), whereas Medical Malpractice leading to death is caused by man.
See the difference. And he wasn't trolling, you just did. He made a valid point by making that comparison to show that Pakistan is being made a patsy.... a very dangerous thing, as Iraq and then Afghan were both called "hotbeds of terrorism" for which the excuse to attack was made. This is very serious and urgent time for Pakistan. We need to stand up for Pakistan, and say NO to this phoney Jew-conspired WOT.
Loud I agree he is a bit. But that is anyway media sensationalism. But then everything that he has raised is quite valid and has bi partisan acceptance.
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