why not Come under US-Nuclear Umbrella ?

[Donatello]

which EU country you think have decrease their Conventional weapons ? look at France , UK , Germany .. in far east see S.korea and Japan ... you think China is afraid of Japan ?? its US fleet that put China at bay ...
no countries in today world have time to go for a war , All countries are busy in making their economy , but what do we get by our nukes ?? safety ?? from who India ? we can get this by allowing US nukes on our soil ..

imagine for a second that if we had 200 f-16C/D blk 52 .. along with Patriots , and f-15's will india dare to attack us ??
after 1999 , all we get a modified useless weapons from usa !!

India believe China can attack them...
Germany has no real enemy
Russia is enemy of USA
China is threat to USA ...

USA can invade UK within 48 hours if they want.......so Pakistan or India doesn't really have chance.

Now, UK's future Army troop numbers are projected at 80,000 or less. You tell me, isn't that less than what they had 20 years ago?

 

[Pakstrong]

again then why America stop supply of weapons to Pakistan , which should not to be as per agreement between two countries. And don't forget Japan and Germany are not Muslim countries.

 

[rockstar08]

Nope, our "importance" cannot be compared to Japan or Germany. Our importance is only to ensure that a terror threat is removed, after which the only importance we will have is having those nuclear weapons and the removal of those weapons by hook or by crook.

The last time US assets were stationed in Pakistan against Russia.. the Russians made us a target for a ICBM and all the Americans did was tell the world that we are not scared of Russia.

but the geopolitics of the world is change in last 3-4 decades ... Japan is just a tool for USA to keep China in check ..forget about Germany for a second ....
i dont think that now US will ever leave this region , they are everywhere and not in mood to leave ....
when was that ? when USSR threat us with their ICBM's ? are you pointing towards 71' war ??

 

[SQ8]

but the geopolitics of the world is change in last 3-4 decades ... Japan is just a tool for USA to keep China in check ..forget about Germany for a second ....
i dont think that now US will ever leave this region , they are everywhere and not in mood to leave ....
when was that ? when USSR threat us with their ICBM's ? are you pointing towards 71' war ??

The Geo politics will change... geography will not. The primary focus for an ally in the middle east for the US has been Iran..and it still might be if there is an anti mullah "spring" in Iran that is brought about.

Japan is there to keep China in check, North Korea in check. and Russia in Check.. Germany provides a hired force for the US's actions... what does Pakistan do once it kills all the terrorists for the US?

And the ICBM time is during the 60s when U-2s were stationed at Badaber and Gary Powers were shot down. I would suggest a little bit more detailed look at US-Pakistan relations and regional history before you promote your suggestion. Perhaps your views will change then.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

India believe China can attack them

China is an export oriented country. She can NEVER attack any country. She will instantly lose huge markets overnight. Brute military force is not an instrument of war in the 21st century. They are a credible deterrent and nothing more.

 

[rockstar08]

USA can invade UK within 48 hours if they want.......so Pakistan or India doesn't really have chance.

Now, UK's future Army troop numbers are projected at 80,000 or less. You tell me, isn't that less than what they had 20 years ago?

US can invade any country man..no doubt on that ... but unlike UK and other EU country why we should decrease our Conventional Power ? i mentioned in OP that we should get more Conventional weapons , and CM's can strike any possible target deep in India .. our one and only enemy ...
look at turkey , they dont have nukes but their Conventional Army can give a nightmare to Indians , their Airforce , Armed forces , only their navy is weak ..
same goes with Japan , and Germany , you think indians can beat Japans ?or germans ??
the only upper hand Indian will have is to threat with nukes , but again threatening is different from using ..no existing country has balls to use nukes on other country and get along with consequences , other than USA

 

[SrNair]

either you didnt read the post .. i said US nuke umbrella only if India decide to use Nukes in future conflict ..
by getting more Conventional weapons , we can fight and sustain war with india ..

Your idea is good.You can transformed in to a South Korea or Japan or Germany within one decade.You will get huge amount of aids,prestige and support from West
But politically you would be paralysed ,your decision making and independency would be completely under the control of US.You will lost the strategic relations with China once and for all.
And due to the better size ,population and other factors we can influence any future conflict for our own favour .

 

[rockstar08]

The Geo politics will change... geography will not. The primary focus for an ally in the middle east for the US has been Iran..and it still might be if there is an anti mullah "spring" in Iran that is brought about.

Japan is there to keep China in check, North Korea in check. and Russia in Check.. Germany provides a hired force for the US's actions... what does Pakistan do once it kills all the terrorists for the US?

And the ICBM time is during the 60s when U-2s were stationed at Badaber and Gary Powers were shot down. I would suggest a little bit more detailed look at US-Pakistan relations and regional history before you promote your suggestion. Perhaps your views will change then.

exactly my point is Oscar , today or even in a decade our one and only enemy will remain india ... and if we had more conventinoal weapons we can easily sustain a war with india , right now all we can do is to threat india with a possible nuclear reaction but you and i both know that those are only empty threats ...

yes you are right , japan and S.korea is there to keep China , Russia and N.korea in check .. but look at their military might and economy ...
why you think Iran is major focus for US ?? is it not because of Nukes ?? why we were in Focus for rest of the world after 1999 ??
what we have face , iran will face same if they get nukes , and they already set up the plot ( ISIS ) ..
Pakistan importance will remain high in the region , we can be gateway for Arab world and south Asia ...
and Sooner or later US will keep check on indians as well ..

Ah yeah i remember that it was the time of Zia ...

 

[rockstar08]

Your idea is good.You can transformed in to a South Korea or Japan or Germany within one decade.You will get huge amount of aids,prestige and support from West
But politically you would be paralysed ,your decision making and independency would be completely under the control of US.You will lost the strategic relations with China once and for all.
And due to the better size ,population and other factors we can influence any future conflict for our own favour .

that's what concern me too .............!

 

[dray]

and why today we can not sustain a Conventional war with you ? after nuke test the doors to any advance tech was close on us .. and thanks to WOT , it puts a seal on it ... the point i am making right now that we can have a more advance army like Germany and Japan, if by surrendering our nukes can make the west happy .. and US warheads will make sure that there wont be any misadventure from india or Russia ..
if Japan is under attack by China , Uncle Sam will put their nose in war in no time ..

Two points:

1. You cannot match us conventionally because of your smaller size in terms of everything, land, population, economy. And you have no distinct advantage over us to offset that limitation, unlike Japan or Germany who are brilliant in technology with advanced economies. In short, we can simply have much more of what you have.

2. Did you check with America if they are willing to fight a war with India on behalf of Pakistan? Do they have any compelling reason to do so? What they gain and what the lose for doing so, have you done the math?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Ok guys , i was wondering that , our Nuclear program is India specific , our missiles cant reach any other possible hostile from the west just in case ... but this Nuclear Pakistan seems a iminant threat to world peace .. and just because of that we were put into this WOT , ( at least some peoples believe in it ) ....
so why not we surrender our Nuclear weapons to UN ? ? US from 2001 try to reach our Nukes , or at least trying to locate them , and its a open secret to all ... we have no access to modern technology , no news military hardware , nothing .... we cant test ICBMs etc ,just because we will face a huge retaliation from the west and possible sanctions ....
our one and only possible enemy is India , at least this what we are told . Americans are friendly to us along with NATO ... than why not just give our Nukes to UN , on conditions which we can put in front of west like , economic reforms and corridor, increase in trade , more access to conventional weapons , for example turkey , Japan and Germany ... except turkey germany and Japan is under US Nuclear Umbrella and they have one of the most advance conventional military's in the world .... why cant we do the same ? we all know US presence in Pak .. whatever high tech and sophisticated weapons USA give us were before we got out nuke tests , why cant we compromise our nukes for a high tech powerful conventional army ?

there might be some possible cases which peoples might be thinking here ...
like .. :
1. what if india attack us ?
2. what if US attack us ?
3. we are the only Islamic nation who posses nukes ..is it a honor or burden ?

1. War with india is something we can experience anytime , and that is reality ...but will india use Nukes on us ? we all know that border skirmishes are happening since kargil and even before , but do we really think that any future conflict will trigger a nuclear war ? and what if we get US nuclear Umbrella like Japan and Germany ? made a pact with them to protect us in future conflicts , only in case of Nukes get involved in war ...
in return we can have more weapons and technology from the west .. i talk about Economic corridor and more trade that will help us build our economy strong .. we can take japan Germany and turkey as example , they have strong conventional army but the only weapon they dont have is Nukes, but did this make their countries valuable to their enemies ? and have US nukes on our soil will make sure that Russians or Indian will not dare to use Nukes ....and by having more conventional weapons we can fight better of with indians ....

2.we all know that many of people in Pakistan believe USA as their enemy and think that sooner or later they will attack us , even if they do , what we can do to prevent them attacking us ??
Answer is NOTHING ...

3 . So many peoples proudly say that we are the only Islamic nation that holds the nuclear weapons , but what benefit we ever give to any of our brotherly Islamic nation ?? none ...this Islamic Ummah and Islamic bomb make things worse for us than make them safe ... our country is more insecure than today ... wont we better before 1999 ?? no Taliban factor , no TTP , no foreign fighters , no band organizations , no suicide bombings etc.. ... world knows that we can not transfer the technology to any of Islamic country nor put our nukes into any other's soil ... than what might be reason to hold this title of " First Islamic country to get Nukes " ????when there is no benefit to it ?


I know lots of peoples here think that Nukes are the guaranty for our safety from India .. but this is also a reality that a full scale Nuclear war between Pakistan and India is impossible , and we can not fight with US , Nato or Israel with our current inventory ..because our missiles simply cant reach there ...
so here the deal what if we offer our nukes to UN and in return we ask for certain thing , what you guys think will be a better deal ?! and what if this all mess of WOT suddenly vanish after surrendering our nukes ? than we can be the tiger of Asia ....

P.s : i want a serious discussion on topic , so mods please try to make this thread clean from trolls , anyone can reply but only if you have something positive related to topic ..

@Horus @Oscar @MastanKhan @Zarvan @dexter @The Deterrent @Chak Bamu @DESERT FIGHTER @orangzaib @gambit @haviZsultan @Irfan Baloch @A.Rafay @Norwegian @The SC @Basel @Amstrong @FaujHistorian @Jungibaaz @fatman17 @Donatello @Windjammer @Solomon2 @500

To face an enemy like India, we need to use our brains first

nukie toys are just what they say "toys" for few boys.


And if we use brains, Pakistan can have long term, very long term survival it the region.


Hope you understand.

 

[The Great One]

sir , China has more ICBM's than you , so does that mean they can take out US ? and dont forget about Russian's they are far more advance than you when it comes to any missiles tech ... even if you able to make a missile that can reach US , you can not dare to use it ..
and again read the post and understand my point .. i am talking about a security pact between Pak-US .. like Japan and Germany ... for conventional war , we can take care of it ... but when Nukes involved US will step ..and even if today Pak-ind will go for war , before it comes to Nuke world will step in ... so the fate of our nukes will remain unchanged ... " Filled with RUST "

If USA threatens nuclear holocaust on us, then why would we not 'dare' to use it. My point wan't about this anyway. It was about about 'deterrence'. USA wouldn't want to add another country to the list of countries that may nook it in case of a war (Russia/PRC/NK).

Nuclear umbrella provided to the NATO countries like Canada/Germany/Turkey and non-NATO Japan in the Soviet era; was to prevent these countries from themselves going nuclear. While this is a point in your favor, do note that these nations are staunch allies of the US and have no independent foreign policy. Pakistan OTOH is China's 'ally'. With growing Chinese power, unchangeable geography and a deep history of American unreliability this position will only get further cemented. Do you think Pakistan will sacrifice all its strategic alliance, its all weather friendship, independent nuclear policy (i.e threatening India over and over again) for an unreliable and distant Amreeka? I think this would be very foolhardy for Pakistan.

As for getting conventional weapons, BLEASE, you don't have conventional weapons bcoz you don't have the $$$$. After WOT everything was available, only $$$$ was missing.

 

[SQ8]

exactly my point is Oscar , today or even in a decade our one and only enemy will remain india ... and if we had more conventinoal weapons we can easily sustain a war with india , right now all we can do is to threat india with a possible nuclear reaction but you and i both know that those are only empty threats ...

yes you are right , japan and S.korea is there to keep China , Russia and N.korea in check .. but look at their military might and economy ...
why you think Iran is major focus for US ?? is it not because of Nukes ?? why we were in Focus for rest of the world after 1999 ??
what we have face , iran will face same if they get nukes , and they already set up the plot ( ISIS ) ..
Pakistan importance will remain high in the region , we can be gateway for Arab world and south Asia ...
and Sooner or later US will keep check on indians as well ..

Ah yeah i remember that it was the time of Zia ...

Iran is the ally the US would love to have in the middle east. It is perfect for them as it borders Russia, The Shi'te crescent and also provides leverage against the GCC if they decide to grow some back against the US.

Pakistan's importance is only as a Buffer to keep India away from religious extremism(now irrelevant due to the information technology highway known as the internet) and to provide overflight for any piecemeal future operations against Iran if needed.
The only possible importance in terms of Pakistan are its nuclear weapons.. take those away.. and the US could care less if Pakistanis butcher each other in the streets(which is where we are likely headed).

And your memory and knowledge is a little off. Zia was NOT the ruler in the 1960s. It was Ayub Khan, who at the time was also eager to ally with India against China in order to appease the US in solving the tensions between the two whilst finding another enemy by which the national focus could be changed. Thanks to the Chinese who had a short memory then, we now have the "oceans and mountains" friendship with them.

 

[rockstar08]

Two points:

1. You cannot match us conventionally because of your smaller size in terms of everything, land, population, economy. And you have no distinct advantage over us to offset that limitation, unlike Japan or Germany who are brilliant in technology with advanced economies. In short, we can simply have much more of what you have.

2. Did you check with America if they are willing to fight a war with India on behalf of Pakistan? Do they have any compelling reason to do so? What they gain and what the lose for doing so, have you done the math?

you are over rating your armed forces sir , whatever you have , we have ... you attack 5000 targets in Pak and within in 10 mins your 8000 targets will be targeted ...
and i am talking about increasing the conventional power ... weapons like more 16's blk 52 , F-15's , and assistance from US to create Babur , will make sure that you stay within your borders ...

and right now lets discuss one topic ... we will do the maths later .. and i hate maths

 

[FaujHistorian]

Two points:

1. You cannot match us conventionally because of your smaller size in terms of everything, land, population, economy. And you have no distinct advantage over us to offset that limitation, unlike Japan or Germany who are brilliant in technology with advanced economies. In short, we can simply have much more of what you have.

2. Did you check with America if they are willing to fight a war with India on behalf of Pakistan? Do they have any compelling reason to do so? What they gain and what the lose for doing so, have you done the math?

Both OP and your post has a bad smell of raja mentality.

yes. yes. The same $tupid rajas

The big raja and the smaller rajaa, who fought each other until both were eaten by foreign hoards.

Sadly.


p.s. you can also use two monkey analogy. but I digress.