PARIKRAMA
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A very sad news and the ongoing discussion in PDF points fundamentally to somewhat same issues as pointed in this article.
We lost 29 good men to the ocean and we wont be able to return them back to their family (as of today EOD)
We hope to bring our men back and give them a honorable exit from this world and closure to their family.
Sadly the Mil Avia raises critical question. We will discuss them more after this Opening article.
++++
Why missing IAF aircraft AN-32 had little chance of being found in case of crash
Does AN-32 have systems on board to help rescuers locate and salvage if it were to crash at sea?
Jugal R Purohit | Posted by Nivedita Dash
New Delhi, August 1, 2016 | UPDATED 16:27 IST
Picture for representation purpose
BRIEF
Those involved in the search for the missing Antonov 32 aircraft are beginning to raise a fundamental point - does AN-32 have systems on board to help rescuers locate and salvage if it were to crash at sea?
At 2123 hours on June 8, last year, an Indian Coast Guard (ICG) Dornier plane vanished from the radar screens tracking it's journey in Trichy near Chennai. The three-member crew on board the aircraft never gave a distress call. For 33 days, no debris was found. Then, a submarine searching underwater, INS Sindhudhvaj, picked up acoustic transmissions emerging from the data recorders on board the Dornier flight CG791. Emerging from a depth of 990m at sea, those rapidly-fading acoustic signals were the only link available and the submarine did the needful. The debris, the recorders and mortal remains of the crew were recovered.
"There is no device on AN-32 which can emit such acoustic signals," said a senior planner deployed in the search. When asked why, he explained that AN-32 was not an aircraft which primarily flew over the sea for operations.
The locator devices on board AN-32 can emit electromagnetic signals/transmission using devices like the fixed Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) or Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) on rubber boats and vests. The ill-fated flight had 50 life vests and 10 boats. Unfortunately, these signals won't travel in water to be picked up by a sensor or submarine. "They are designed to function at the surface, say if they float, come in touch with water, but not underwater especially at a depth like 3500m where we suspect the plane has crashed," he explained.
Worryingly, as a senior source pointed out, "The ELTs have had a history of not functioning properly at the time of a crash. They did not work during Coast Guard crash, naval Dornier crash, both of last year and this was raised with the seniors."
AN-32 LACKS MODERN FEATURES
The AN-32 also lacks features which come along with modern aircraft.
For example, AN-32 does not have the Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast. This system, in place of relying on ground-based radars, relies on navigational satellites to automatically transmit an aircraft's journey in real time. The crew of the aircraft can switch it on or off. "In a mission like the one this aircraft was on, the crew would not mind being tracked. But because the system was missing, the alarm was raised only at 1225 hours, which is nearly an hour after it was to have landed at 1130 hours at Port Blair," explained a source. The AN-32 went out of the coverage of the ground radar in Chennai a little after 9am. No alarm was raised then.
The AN-32 also lacks other systems that modern aircraft possess. A source aware of the intricacies of the operation explained, "The Poseidon 8 India (P8I) aircraft which the navy operates has a deployable ELT, which in the event of the plane plunging into the sea will emerge out of the aircraft and self deploy on the surface of the sea. By doing so, it will help the searchers locate faster. The AN-32 has nothing like that".
A detailed questionnaire sent to the IAF was not answered.
A source explained, "AN-32 does not have any underwater locator or sonar locator beacon as it is not a marine aircraft."
WHAT IS THE SEARCH LOOKING FOR
"We are picking up debris, oil in a bid to see if it has anything to do with the AN-32. At this rate, we will end up cleaning the entire Bay of Bengal and yet not find anything," said a source. On the underwater front, the source explained, "It is anything that we can find. We are aware of the science and yet we are simply throwing everything we have at it".
National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) research vessel, Sagar Nidhi has been called for scanning the sea bed. The vessel, which is on its way from Mauritius, will use its echo sounder and look to the ocean floor to see if the ground pattern has any change. "We may not be able to tell if there is an aircraft or not but we can tell if there is any anomaly and that will then have to be investigated. There is nothing in that aircraft which can help us locate it. We will have to rely on luck," said an official from the ministry of earth sciences.
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) too is trying to pitch it. "However, the Ultra High Frequency signals which the plane can emit will never emerge as the water will absorb them. An effort is also being made if any of our satellite or those from our friendly countries picked this plane in its final moments when it was out of radar coverage," explained a source aware of ISRO's operations.
SEARCH ON
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-aids-searchers-say-handicapped/1/729014.html
+++
We in PDF had inferred few of the things correctly.. Right after the crash was reported in this thread
https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-an-32-missing-with-crew-of-29-in-bay-of-bengal.440542/
and we started pouring information, i had posted this
https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-an-3...9-in-bay-of-bengal.440542/page-3#post-8492765
and we also pointed to why we seek help from USA
https://defence.pk/threads/governme...sabotage-very-less.441822/page-2#post-8518314
https://defence.pk/threads/us-deploys-satellites-to-find-missing-iaf-aircraft.442319/#post-8528017
+++
+++
A side debate and discussions
I have tried to keep this simple for debates, views and discussion.
Inviting you all for opinions.
Tagging @jhungary - Sir wish to use your professional expertise for a fair advice
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil@Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec@Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito@SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer
@dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact@Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222@Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki
@CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug@Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian@Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs]@Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss
@jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @amardeep mishra @Slav Defence @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @others
A very sad news and the ongoing discussion in PDF points fundamentally to somewhat same issues as pointed in this article.
We lost 29 good men to the ocean and we wont be able to return them back to their family (as of today EOD)
We hope to bring our men back and give them a honorable exit from this world and closure to their family.
Sadly the Mil Avia raises critical question. We will discuss them more after this Opening article.
++++
Why missing IAF aircraft AN-32 had little chance of being found in case of crash
Does AN-32 have systems on board to help rescuers locate and salvage if it were to crash at sea?
Jugal R Purohit | Posted by Nivedita Dash
New Delhi, August 1, 2016 | UPDATED 16:27 IST
Picture for representation purpose
BRIEF
- The AN-32 lacks features which come along with modern aircraft.
- AN-32 was not an aircraft which primarily flew over the sea.
- AN-32 does not have the Automatic Dependent Surveillance
Those involved in the search for the missing Antonov 32 aircraft are beginning to raise a fundamental point - does AN-32 have systems on board to help rescuers locate and salvage if it were to crash at sea?
At 2123 hours on June 8, last year, an Indian Coast Guard (ICG) Dornier plane vanished from the radar screens tracking it's journey in Trichy near Chennai. The three-member crew on board the aircraft never gave a distress call. For 33 days, no debris was found. Then, a submarine searching underwater, INS Sindhudhvaj, picked up acoustic transmissions emerging from the data recorders on board the Dornier flight CG791. Emerging from a depth of 990m at sea, those rapidly-fading acoustic signals were the only link available and the submarine did the needful. The debris, the recorders and mortal remains of the crew were recovered.
"There is no device on AN-32 which can emit such acoustic signals," said a senior planner deployed in the search. When asked why, he explained that AN-32 was not an aircraft which primarily flew over the sea for operations.
The locator devices on board AN-32 can emit electromagnetic signals/transmission using devices like the fixed Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) or Personal Locator Beacons (PLBs) on rubber boats and vests. The ill-fated flight had 50 life vests and 10 boats. Unfortunately, these signals won't travel in water to be picked up by a sensor or submarine. "They are designed to function at the surface, say if they float, come in touch with water, but not underwater especially at a depth like 3500m where we suspect the plane has crashed," he explained.
Worryingly, as a senior source pointed out, "The ELTs have had a history of not functioning properly at the time of a crash. They did not work during Coast Guard crash, naval Dornier crash, both of last year and this was raised with the seniors."
AN-32 LACKS MODERN FEATURES
The AN-32 also lacks features which come along with modern aircraft.
For example, AN-32 does not have the Automatic Dependent Surveillance - Broadcast. This system, in place of relying on ground-based radars, relies on navigational satellites to automatically transmit an aircraft's journey in real time. The crew of the aircraft can switch it on or off. "In a mission like the one this aircraft was on, the crew would not mind being tracked. But because the system was missing, the alarm was raised only at 1225 hours, which is nearly an hour after it was to have landed at 1130 hours at Port Blair," explained a source. The AN-32 went out of the coverage of the ground radar in Chennai a little after 9am. No alarm was raised then.
The AN-32 also lacks other systems that modern aircraft possess. A source aware of the intricacies of the operation explained, "The Poseidon 8 India (P8I) aircraft which the navy operates has a deployable ELT, which in the event of the plane plunging into the sea will emerge out of the aircraft and self deploy on the surface of the sea. By doing so, it will help the searchers locate faster. The AN-32 has nothing like that".
A detailed questionnaire sent to the IAF was not answered.
A source explained, "AN-32 does not have any underwater locator or sonar locator beacon as it is not a marine aircraft."
WHAT IS THE SEARCH LOOKING FOR
"We are picking up debris, oil in a bid to see if it has anything to do with the AN-32. At this rate, we will end up cleaning the entire Bay of Bengal and yet not find anything," said a source. On the underwater front, the source explained, "It is anything that we can find. We are aware of the science and yet we are simply throwing everything we have at it".
National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) research vessel, Sagar Nidhi has been called for scanning the sea bed. The vessel, which is on its way from Mauritius, will use its echo sounder and look to the ocean floor to see if the ground pattern has any change. "We may not be able to tell if there is an aircraft or not but we can tell if there is any anomaly and that will then have to be investigated. There is nothing in that aircraft which can help us locate it. We will have to rely on luck," said an official from the ministry of earth sciences.
The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) too is trying to pitch it. "However, the Ultra High Frequency signals which the plane can emit will never emerge as the water will absorb them. An effort is also being made if any of our satellite or those from our friendly countries picked this plane in its final moments when it was out of radar coverage," explained a source aware of ISRO's operations.
SEARCH ON
- 106 sorties flown for over 483 hours.
- Nine ships in the search area.
- Aerial search over 360 nautical miles by 300nm.
- Surface search over 120 nm by 120nm.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/...-aids-searchers-say-handicapped/1/729014.html
+++
We in PDF had inferred few of the things correctly.. Right after the crash was reported in this thread
https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-an-32-missing-with-crew-of-29-in-bay-of-bengal.440542/
and we started pouring information, i had posted this
https://defence.pk/threads/iaf-an-3...9-in-bay-of-bengal.440542/page-3#post-8492765
and we also pointed to why we seek help from USA
https://defence.pk/threads/governme...sabotage-very-less.441822/page-2#post-8518314
https://defence.pk/threads/us-deploys-satellites-to-find-missing-iaf-aircraft.442319/#post-8528017
+++
- It is indeed sad we lost 29 good men. RIP
- Its even more tragic that our Mil Avia did not have proper instruments like UWB when its flying over sea
- We need to find the wreckage and understand what really happened by analyzing the Cockpit Voice Recorder and Flight Data Recorder.
- We need deep sea salvage operation specialists in our IN. ROV and MSV is very much needed
+++
A side debate and discussions
- How long we should continue with An 32s?
- How good is the quality of the new upgrade package for An-32s?
- HAL MTA is on paper so what options we have?
- Should we opt for C295 or may be C130 XJs to do a complete makeover of our transport fleet?
- Should we look for Make In India for such projects to replace the An-32s over next decade?
- Critically, what should we do to increase our capability in SAR ops
- Where is our dedicated fleet for SAR Ops (surface IN and ICG and for UW cases)?
- What about our response time to SAR situations?
- What should we do to find the wreckage?
I have tried to keep this simple for debates, views and discussion.
Inviting you all for opinions.
Tagging @jhungary - Sir wish to use your professional expertise for a fair advice
@Abingdonboy @anant_s @Taygibay @Picdelamirand-oil@Vergennes @randomradio @Ankit Kumar 002 @MilSpec@Koovie @Echo_419 @Dash @hellfire @ito@SR-91 @AMCA @DesiGuy1403 @ranjeet @hellfire @fsayed @SpArK @AUSTERLITZ @nair @proud_indian @Roybot @jbgt90 @Sergi @Water Car Engineer
@dadeechi @kurup @Rain Man @kaykay @Joe Shearer @Tshering22 @Dandpatta @danger007 @Didact@Soumitra @SrNair @TejasMk3@jbgt90 @ranjeet @4GTejasBVR @The_Showstopper @guest11 @egodoc222@Nilgiri @SarthakGanguly @Omega007 @GURU DUTT @HariPrasad @JanjaWeed @litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Spectre@litefire @AMCA @Perpendicular@Ryuzaki
@CorporateAffairs @GR!FF!N @migflug@Levina@SvenSvensonov @-xXx- @Perpendicular @proud_indian@Mustang06 @Param @Local_Legend @Ali Zadi @hellfire @egodoc222 @CorporateAffairs @Major Shaitan Singh @jha @SmilingBuddha @#hydra# @danish_vij @[Bregs]@Skillrex @Hephaestus @SR-91 @Techy @litefire @R!CK @zebra7 @dev_moh @DesiGuy1403 @itachii @nik141993 @Marxist @Glorino @noksss
@jbgt90 @Skull and Bones @Kraitcorp @amardeep mishra @Slav Defence @waz @WAJsal @Oscar @The Eagle @Blue Marlin @others
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