Why Manmohan’s strategy on Pak terror will never work !

[Kinetic]

Did Afghanistan hold a referendum on allowing foreign forces into Afghanistan in 2001?

Taliban was in power, who will hold the referendum? NA had full support to any force removing Taliban from power.


For everyone it was Taliban to be removed and a democratic govt to be based. It isnot the big deal whether US/NATO/ISAF do it. Taliban is removed is the main thing, Afghans could not do it by themselves.

 

[deckingraj]

As one poster said - MMS is a scholar but not a statesman. We need statesmen at helm not scholars.

See that's the core of our problem..We do make statements but unfortunately don't understand the reality....Anyways let me ask you a question...Who as per you was a statesman in past 6 decades of our history...Also who in this current breed is a statesman in your eyes??? Answer these questions honestly and probably you will get what i am trying to say...

MMS is definitely a scholar and is surely a wise man...Peace with Pakistan is the only choice...We must keep on pursuing it...there is nothing wrong in it...what we are wrong is the other side of the coin...i.e. make the terrorist pay for their deeds...and here every govt. who was/is in center has failed miserably...Just to point out here..lot of my friends accuse congress being soft on terror and prefer BJP over them...However just for records sake our actions against enemy in the aftermath of Parliament attack cost us around 800 soldiers and emboldened the enemy even further...

I might sound like a congress supporter but just to make things clear i am going to vote for BJP in next elections because of abysmal performance of congress on other fronts...

 

[notorious_eagle]

This is certainly not true or atleast not complete...Pakistan is certainly doing everything it can to hurt those terror groups who are hurting her interests...and yes certainly India is not happy with it...Anyways as said in my previous post peace is the only option we have...We should certainly keep on pursuing that route....What is the need of the hour is to improve internal security and i am afraid we are certainly very poor in it...

I whole heartedly agree with you that peace is the only way forward for India and Pakistan, if France and Germany can become such strong allies after decades of rivalry, than why cant India and Pakistan. But it appears to me that you are a minority among your fellow country men, they seem to be advocating a shooting war between India and Pakistan. Look at the below post as a sample.

No. Honestly the article and most of the Indians say treat Pakistan for what it is. Treat it with the indifference it deserves - not pamper it with CBM, Aman-ki-Tamasha, or whatever crap this Govt headed by MMS is doing.

I agree, Pakistanis feel the same way about India.

Just secure our border and pretend a nation called Pakistan did not even exist on the other side.

In an ideal world this would be perfectly fine, but the world we live in, its not possible at all. You can choose your enemy but not choose your neighbours. There is no way Pakistan can avoid India and vice versa, the two countries are very much connected and the only way forward for both countries is to have a dialogue and hammer their problems out.

 

[deckingraj]

Allow me to make an 'academic' point here - attacks on soldiers are not 'terrorism', since soldiers are 'combatants' - it is there job to fight and potentially be subjected to 'attacks'.

Ummmm not sure if i agree with you there....Taliban has attacked many areas where combatants were the prime target within Pakistan...So does that mean they are not act of terrorism??? What are your thoughts about attack on PNS Mehran???

To me the whole concept of terrorism is contextual... To me attack on USAF in AF is a terrorist attack...For you attack on PA by Taliban is terrorism, no????

I believe at the end of the day Might is Right...I have the power i will portray my act of terrorism as right whereas point fingers on the similar deeds by a lesser counterpart...

 

[deckingraj]

I whole heartedly agree with you that peace is the only way forward for India and Pakistan, if France and Germany can become such strong allies after decades of rivalry, than why cant India and Pakistan. But it appears to me that you are a minority among your fellow country men, they seem to be advocating a shooting war between India and Pakistan. Look at the below post as a sample.

Well is it a surprise..We have plenty of war mongers but on BOTH SIDE...However what most of these folks miss is that peace is the only option that both India and Pak have...Pak cannot snatch away from Kashmir by force and nor does any proxy war, Period. Past 4 wars and 2 decades of proxy war is a testament to what i am saying...India cannot bully Pakistan and force her to forget Kashmir...Again past 4 wars and 2003 debacle is a testament to it...

People need to realize that gains if any party win's is far meager as compared to the losses that she has to suffer...but then common sense is not so common...

 

[KS]

See that's the core of our problem..We do make statements but unfortunately don't understand the reality....Anyways let me ask you a question...Who as per you was a statesman in past 6 decades of our history...Also who in this current breed is a statesman in your eyes??? Answer these questions honestly and probably you will get what i am trying to say...

Past PMs - Shri Lal Bahadur Shahtri, Shri PVNR, Shri Vajpayee and Shrimati Indira (for the way she deftly handled the 1971 war)

Present Leaders - Nitih Kumar, Narendra Modi and Pranab Mukherjee

MMS is definitely a scholar and is surely a wise man...Peace with Pakistan is the only choice...We must keep on pursuing it...there is nothing wrong in it...what we are wrong is the other side of the coin...i.e. make the terrorist pay for their deeds...and here every govt. who was/is in center has failed miserably...Just to point out here..lot of my friends accuse congress being soft on terror and prefer BJP over them...However just for records sake our actions against enemy in the aftermath of Parliament attack cost us around 800 soldiers and emboldened the enemy even further...

Peace with Pakistan is just an added goody but I wont agree that it is the only way out for India. India can well afford to maintain status-quo without any appreciable damage, infact with very little damage. And by saying peace with Pakistan I hope you meant the Pakistani govt. Let me tell you that is worth nothing unless you buy peace with the Pakistani Army and surely you must know that it is next to impossible as that is only possible if we give away Kashmir and that is imposssible to do in India. So the bottom line is these talks serve nothing and is only a waste of tax money on the people of both India and Pakistan.

There have been more than 15 rounds of Talks b/n these two countries. Tell me one appreciable benefit that has come India's way due to these talks. Just one.

Secondly coming to the oft criticized Op.Parakram let me tell you it was a political masterstroke that broke the backbone of the militancy in J&K without actually going to war with Pakistan. Such a huge mobilisation scared the shyt out of the US which then pressured Mushy to dismantle more than 90%. of the terrorist training camps in P-o-K.

Want proof ? See the following graph and see how the casualties which were steadily increasing till 2001 peaked in 2002 and started declining sharply after that. Op.Parakram took place exactly during the same time. Coincidence ? I dont think so. Even Musharaff acknowledged it later on.

I might sound like a congress supporter but just to make things clear i am going to vote for BJP in next elections because of abysmal performance of congress on other fronts...

Buddy its not about being Congress or BJP supporter. Even I supported MMS during his early tenure and especially during his un-charateristic boldness during the Nuclear deal. But that guy is simply not aware that peace with Pakistan is not possible unless you relinquish Kashmir - which is a definite political suicide in India - and stop wasting time and money on that.

By these sentences I don't mean to go to war with Pakistan. Just treat it with the indifference it deserves and move on with your internal business of nation building. No need to acknowledge,accomodate and pamper them.

Well is it a surprise..We have plenty of war mongers but on BOTH SIDE...However what most of these folks miss is that peace is the only option that both India and Pak have...Pak cannot snatch away from Kashmir by force and nor does any proxy war, Period. Past 4 wars and 2 decades of proxy war is a testament to what i am saying...India cannot bully Pakistan and force her to forget Kashmir...Again past 4 wars and 2003 debacle is a testament to it...

.

Its just not bullying. Its just that we cannot make them forget Kashmir whatever be the means - war,talks,pampering, bribing etc.

Nothing can make them forget Kashmir.For them its linked with their idealogy of the struggle of believers vs unbelievers. Its high time MMS realises it.

 

[KS]

I whole heartedly agree with you that peace is the only way forward for India and Pakistan, if France and Germany can become such strong allies after decades of rivalry, than why cant India and Pakistan. But it appears to me that you are a minority among your fellow country men, they seem to be advocating a shooting war between India and Pakistan. Look at the below post as a sample.

I'll answer that for him.

Unlike Franco-German rivalry which was strictly political Indo-Pak rivalry transcends the political sphere and has long before acquired religious,cultural overtones and I dont believe we can re-concilee ever.

I agree, Pakistanis feel the same way about India.

Good to know that. We should then pressure our respective govt to stop these CBM tamasha and instead focus on internal nation building. Because I assure you these talks serve no purpose.

In an ideal world this would be perfectly fine, but the world we live in, its not possible at all. You can choose your enemy but not choose your neighbours. There is no way Pakistan can avoid India and vice versa, the two countries are very much connected and the only way forward for both countries is to have a dialogue and hammer their problems out.

How can we hammer our problems through dialogue ?

Unless Kashmir is given Pakistan will not be satisfied and India will not allow secession of Kashmir. So where is the middle ground ?

 

[Bang Galore]

Equally as you have crazies whom are advocating war with Pakistan, this article is one example and dozens of your fellow brethren whom hold the same opinion.

Don't disagree though I don't see how this article advocates war.

Indeed my country is paying for the past mistakes we have made but we are trying slowly to correct our mistakes, i know its a painful process but it takes time. You don't even have an ounce of proof to prove that Pakistan is supporting terrorist groups whom are inflicting pain on our own country, do you even know how stupid your argument sounds. I guess Indian propaganda of making Pakistan Army out to be thirsty blood suckers whom don't give a rats arse about their people is finally taking its effect on the Indian public, proof is right infront of me.

Your country's paying for its mistakes is merely incidental to our opinion on the viability of any peace process. We would be interested if the "paying" causes a clear & visible change in your policies towards us which doesn't yet seem to be the case. We have enough "proof" of Pakistan supporting terrorist groups & we are not the only countries believing that. It is another matter that nothing will satisfy you. My argument sounding stupid may more be a problem with the nationality of your ears than any inherent deficiency in my position.
Nobody thinks/cares that the "Pakistani army is blood-thirsty, only that its view of the world & India in specific leads it to acquiesce in blood-letting in India. Whether they care or don't care about their own people is not an argument we are interested in. I believe that the Pakistani army believes in its cause & believes that what it is doing is indeed best for Pakistan & Pakistanis but whether that is true is not for us in India to decide though we can & will hold an opinion. We are only discussing whether anything worthwhile is available to be gained by going the specific route the GoI is presently involved in.

I agree with what you are saying, with the way things are going and reading the opinion of many Indians over here, it does appear that war is inevitable. Gladly for us, India is not in a position to smash Pakistan's defences and inflict punitive measures against Pakistan Army as it is being advocated broadly by Indians. Pakistan is no Lebanon and India is no Israel, Indians need to get this through their heads. Pakistan is doing whatever is in her capacity to deal with these terrorist groups, if the Indians are unhappy with this, than so be it.

Not my argument. The absence of a peace deal does not translate into war, atleast not in my books. No one, least of all me have advocated war. We however believe that Pakistan is simply not interested/not able to deliver on the kind of peace deal that the PM of India is interested in. We do not expect Pakistan/Pakistanis to care about what Indians think about Pakistan's dealing with the terrorist groups. That is the point we are actually making in our arguments that you seem not able to grasp - that Pakistan simply does not care about Indian protests & would not do anything to take care of Indian concerns. That is essentially our point that you buttressed with your remarks-Pakistan does not care & cannot be expected to care & therefore India must take into account that reality while working out policies. Incidentally that was also what the late Richard Holbrooke said to our FM Krishna after the Mumbai attacks; the LeT was under the control of the Pakistan army & the civilian government of Pakistan cannot be expected to do what India was asking for
Army calls the shots, US told India miffed over 26/11 inaction by Pakistan (Wikileaks) | Real Time News, India

Any peace deal, as I have said earlier will be about soft borders & the like. Pakistan cannot simply be expected to keep up its side of any bargain because it claims no ability to control the actions of terrorist groups like the LeT & JeM. How then, can Pakistan guarantee that the Kashmir issue will be resolved if terrorist groups(helped by a now open border) continue to do what they have been doing? India would have laid out its cards on the table & yet be checkmated by people who ostensibly were not in the game to begin with. It is simply a no-win situation.

 

[Bang Galore]

You don't even have an ounce of proof to prove that Pakistan is supporting terrorist groups whom are inflicting pain on our own country, do you even know how stupid your argument sounds.

Specifically on this point, no one has argued that Pakistan supports terrorist groups that attack it & you are misconstruing; deliberately or otherwise the argument that the Pakistani military operates using double standards for terrorist/militant groups - supporting those that attack the U.S. in Afghanistan (the Haqqani group) & against India (LeT etc) while coming down on those that attack it (Pakistani Taliban). Therefore the stupidity that you believe is inherent in the argument -that of Pakistan army supporting killers of Pakistanis is simple down to you arguing a point that none of us are making.