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Why J-10C repeatly defeat J-16 in Chinese air war game?

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J-16 has more powerful AESA, avionics but still loses to J-10C which has inferior AESA and avionics compare to J-16.

Reason, RCS of J-10C are carefully treated with DSI inlet, treated with RCS reduction coating and some proper angle of aligning which significantly reduce RCS to 0.4m. Therefore despite having more inferior radar, J-10C still able to get closer to J-16 and detected it first and shot it down before it can react.

J-16 with its legendary Su-27 lineage can hardly has any improvement to reduce its RCS. Its huge size is its biggest advantage but also its a fatal weakness.
 
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J-16 has more powerful AESA, avionics but still loses to J-10C which has inferior AESA and avionics compare to J-16.

Reason, RCS of J-10C are carefully treated with DSI inlet, treated with RCS reduction coating and some proper angle of aligning which significantly reduce RCS to 0.4m. Therefore despite having more inferior radar, J-10C still able to get closer to J-16 and detected it first and shot it down before it can react.

J-16 with its legendary Su-27 lineage can hardly has any improvement to reduce its RCS. Its huge size is its biggest advantage but also its a fatal weakness.

The Russians have always liked big planes that can carry lots of fuel and arms (like the Su-27). Unfortunately in the days of BVR this means you can be vulnerable to a small mosquito. If you look at the size of the F-22 compared to the F-15 it replaces you can see a noticeable size decrease as well as the obvious stealth.
 
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The Russians have always liked big planes that can carry lots of fuel and arms. Unfortunately in the days of BVR this means you can be vulnerable to a small mosquito. If you look at the size of an F-22 compared to the F-15 it replaces you can see a noticeable size decrease as well as the obvious stealth.
That will depend on how you maximize your own advantage and play according to situation.

Somebody strength maybe their weakness too.
 
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The J16 is a multi-role fighter. The J10C is an interceptor based air combat aircraft. Their roles are inherently different.

The J16 is offensive, it can carry weapons up to 12 tons and ballistic missiles over 6 meters in its belly. The J10C is defensive and carries mainly AAM. It can certainly carry some air -to-ground weapons, but that's not its strong suit, and it's not even as capable of being mounted as the JF17.

If we give them a score for each of their capabilities. J16 is an 8 for all capabilities. The J10C is an air combat capability 9, but other capabilities only 5 or even 4.

Many of the Air Force's major fleets are made up of both types of jets. Just like F15 and F16, SU27 and SU30. Take the recent news that the UAE is buying rafale, F16E and rafale. The UAE plans to use the F35A and rafale.
 
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The J16 is a multi-role fighter. The J10C is an interceptor based air combat aircraft. Their roles are inherently different.

The J16 is offensive, it can carry weapons up to 12 tons and ballistic missiles over 6 meters in its belly. The J10C is defensive and carries mainly AAM. It can certainly carry some air -to-ground weapons, but that's not its strong suit, and it's not even as capable of being mounted as the JF17.

If we give them a score for each of their capabilities. J16 is an 8 for all capabilities. The J10C is an air combat capability 9, but other capabilities only 5 or even 4.

Many of the Air Force's major fleets are made up of both types of jets. Just like F15 and F16, SU27 and SU30. Take the recent news that the UAE is buying rafale, F16E and rafale. The UAE plans to use the F35A and rafale.
J-16 supposed to be multi role. If needed, it can carry out intercepting role too. Its avionics are definitely designed with aerial combat as part of the package.
 
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J-16 supposed to be multi role. If needed, it can carry out intercepting role too. Its avionics are definitely designed with aerial combat as part of the package.
Of course. But the J16 will sacrifice some of its air combat capabilities for multi-purpose capabilities. The simplest example is the backseat pilot and his equipment. This will affect the flight performance of the J16. This is why J11B can beat J16 in air combat. However, in a large air battle, the J16's high-powered electronics and dual pilots will take advantage. Multirole fighters have no advantage in solo combat, but have a huge advantage in battler-level operations.
 
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J-10C beats J-16 and Su-35, winning the most ‘Golden Helmets’
December 15, 2021
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Chinese military expert Fu Qianshi recently revealed on a program that the J-10C has become the most feared 3.5 generation fighter in China’s “Golden Helmets” free air combat test in recent years. In the last three years of the “Golden Helmets” exercise, the J-10C has repeatedly defeated the J-16 multirole fighter and the imported Su-35 air fighter, achieving a brilliant record.

He said that the J-10C has defeated the J-16 and Su-35 fighters for three consecutive years (2019-2021) since the aircraft entered service in batch in 2018, taking the largest number of “Golden Helmets”. It is worth mentioning that in this year’s “Golden Helmet” competition, the pilots Gao Benchao and Yang Shuai (a two-man crew) from the “Big Red Eagle Brigade” of Southern Theater overpowered the others and won two “Golden Helmets”. In this regard, some media began to hype that J-10C has “incomparable power”, “even better than the J-16 and Su-35”, there are media claims that the J-10C can “kill in seconds” India’s Rafale.


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As China’s most advanced 3.5 generation medium fighter, the J-10C is equipped with an advanced active phased array airborne radar system and can use PL-15 missiles with a range of up to two hundred kilometers; it uses DSI air intakes to effectively reduce the frontal radar reflection area. The J-10C also has the capability to integrate an infrared search and tracking system (IRST), which also allows the fighter to maintain high situational awareness in the absence of radar signals, which allows it to more effectively target stealth fighters at medium to close range. Overall, the J-10C is on par with the world’s top 3.5 generation fighters in terms of avionics, maneuverability, the number of types of ammunition carried, and many other factors.

The J-10C’s avionics and electronic warfare systems, including radar, are very advanced, and its performance is similar to that of the J-16, so there is no generation difference between them.

The J-10C and the J-16 also share many significant similarities. Both use advanced next-generation avionics, electronic warfare systems, composite materials, and the same PL-15 and PL-10 air-to-air missiles, both of which are also used by the J-20. The PL-15 missile uses AESA radar guidance, the only air-to-air missile outside of Japan that has been proven to use an AESA radar guidance head, and has an estimated range of 250 to 300 kilometers. The PL-10 is highly praised for its short-range capability and its ability to engage targets at very extreme angles with its helmet-mounted sights.

The J-10C also has the advantages of easy maintenance and low operating costs, making it suitable for large-scale deployment. It is more agile, especially at lower speeds, and has a lower radar cross-sectional area. The newer J-16 variant uses advanced avionics and electronic warfare systems similar to those of the J-10C and can fly at higher altitudes and at slightly faster speeds. The J-16 has higher endurance, more firepower and a larger radar.

J-16 belongs to multirole fighter, the former fighter-bomber, this type of fighter has both powerful air combat capability and ground/sea attack capability, that is to say, its air combat capability is no less than advanced 4th generation aircraft, and it can mount various precision-guided munitions and air-ground/air-sea missiles to strike land/sea targets, so J-16 is very combat-capable!

The problem is that the J-16 derived from the J-11B not only has an additional seat, but also needs a reinforced airframe to mount heavy aerial munitions (up to 3,000 kg), which leads to an increase in its fuselage weight, but the power of the “Taihang B” engine remains unchanged, so its thrust-to-weight ratio is lower than that of the J-11B, and its short-range combat maneuverability is much lower than that of air-control fighters such as the J-10C, and it is relatively inflexible.


Modern fighters are, frankly speaking, air missile launch platforms, mainly depending on the performance of avionics and air-to-air missiles. It is actually no secret that the Su-35 avionics system is backward. The J-10C has an overwhelming advantage in avionics equipment. Russia has always been behind in electronics, especially the avionics system used by the aircraft. The avionics system is a very complex system, including satellite navigation, relative positioning system, image processing system, targeting, control, computing and navigation systems.

Radar, for example, must use integrated circuits, while Russia is still using a mixture of transistors and electronic tubes in many cases. If it is an early warning aircraft, it is better, because the aircraft has a lot of space. However, if it is a fighter plane, the radar system must be miniaturized, then it is necessary to pass the digital integrated circuit barrier. The level of Russians in this test has always been relatively average. Therefore, many Russian-made fighters are characterized by high radar power, but insufficient accuracy and poor anti-jamming capabilities. However, the Su-35 fighter is still very good as a flying platform, it just needs a software upgrade. As long as some key components of the Russian fighter avionics system are upgraded, it can be greatly improved.


The French Rafale is very popular internationally. It is equipped with an RBE-2 active phased array radar. The avionics and weapon systems are very advanced. It can integrate two infrared search devices and optical devices with the main body of the radar. And its flight performance is pretty high.

In terms of size, both the J-10C and the Rafale are medium-sized fighters, but the Rafale uses two M88 mid-thrust engines, while the J-10C is a high-thrust Taihang B engine, but the flight speed and maneuverability of the two types of fighters are comparable. However, the weakness of Rafale is very prominent. Its radar caliber is too small. It is currently the smallest fighter equipped with active phased array radar and the least T/R component. Therefore, it will be “near-sighted” on the battlefield. This is big trouble. It is very likely that the Rafale fighter would be killed by the J-10C using the PL-15 missiles before it can see the latter clearly in a mid-range air battle.

In any case, the J-10C is a piece of Chinese equipment with full intellectual property rights, and it is not easy to beat the heavy J-16 and Su-35 in a row with the size of a medium-sized aircraft.

 
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Su-35 has been a bit underwhelming. To the best of my knowledge it has never even advanced to the Golden Helmet finale and has been consistently knocked out pretty early on in the contest. Maybe it should join the J-10B and J-11B/J-10A in the fourth generation competition instead.
 
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I am not aware of how these aerial competitions are held or graded but is there any third party verification of the results? We know that both Su-35 and the J-16s are based off of the legacy Su-27/30s and are not original Chinese designs. Isn't it possible that China is making a sales pitch here by showing the sukhois down?
 
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Su-35 has been a bit underwhelming. To the best of my knowledge it has never even advanced to the Golden Helmet finale and has been consistently knocked out pretty early on in the contest. Maybe it should join the J-10B and J-11B/J-10A in the fourth generation competition instead.
The SU35 was added as a special character. It took part in some competitions. But because the SU35 doesn't meet some criteria, it can't be compared as a contender. My guess is that the SU35 lacks sufficient electronic warfare and BVR capabilities.
 
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The SU35 was added as a special character. It took part in some competitions. But because the SU35 doesn't meet some criteria, it can't be compared as a contender. My guess is that the SU35 lacks sufficient electronic warfare and BVR capabilities.

I don't think it is with EW. The main problem is with the radar/avionics and the missile. R-77, according to a reveal by test pilot Li Zhonghua, has a practical maximum range of 50KM, which means it is not only outsticked by the PL-15 but also the PL-12 under most circumstances. The Su-35 is still the most capable fighter in PLAAF when it comes to maneuverability and WVR combat, the problem is with surviving till the merge.

I can't but help feel that there is a reason they won't send them on Taiwan ADIZ flights anymore (same with older generation domestic flankers like J-11B). F-16V will out stick them significantly and you need something like the J-16 to maintain balance in long range aerial combat.
I am not aware of how these aerial competitions are held or graded but is there any third party verification of the results? We know that both Su-35 and the J-16s are based off of the legacy Su-27/30s and are not original Chinese designs. Isn't it possible that China is making a sales pitch here by showing the sukhois down?

Considering that the J-11B held the title role for three years before the introduction of the 4.5th fighters, the answer is no.
 
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Isn't it possible that China is making a sales pitch
The premise is non-existent, when China itself is facing severe shortage of its component: WS-10C engine.

The WS-10 series is used on PLAAF's J-20/16/11/10 and PLAN's J-15 i.e. almost all tactical manned jets in our forces, however its slow production rate at AECC (my estimate ~300 units per year, all 7 variants combined) is far from enough to satisfy the huge demand from the jet makers. Note that not a single AL-31 has been procured since 2017. This shortage is not even news in China.
 
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The premise is non-existent, when China itself is facing severe shortage of its component: WS-10C engine.

The WS-10 series is used on PLAAF's J-20/16/11/10 and PLAN's J-15 i.e. almost all tactical manned jets in our forces, however its slow production rate at AECC (my estimate ~300 units per year, all 7 variants combined) is far from enough to satisfy the huge demand from the jet makers. Note that not a single AL-31 has been procured since 2017. This shortage is not even news in China.

You can cross J-11b from the list. It is no longer in production.
 
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