Why is our full history not taught to us in Pakistan Studies?

[Kuru]

Peace of mind over what? It's Hondas chimping out on other Hondas for speaking a different dialect of ape babble or having a slightly different color tone of gobar skin. What are you wishing me peace of mind over, Hyundai?

You still got no peace, buddy. That’s sad.

 

[Great Janjua]

People dont get the reason some tribes associate themselves with Arab invaders Pakistan and the current land was a tribal society each tribe claimed links to various pagan Gods and some to their offsprings but when Sufis and saints converted these tribes in order to disassociate themselves from paganism and animism they used the same technique to link lineages with Arabs, Persians and Turks.

But not everyone did claim links to Pagans or Arabs majority of the tribes do not have this link concept to Arabs or Pagan mythology only a few do like some Awans, and converted Brahmins, Lohanas and khatris who use the title Sheikh, Khoja and Memon.


Half of the brain deds on this very forum do not know their Grandparents and here they Generalise Pakistani society.

This thread exemplifies how third world(former direct colonies) starts owning and rationalizing fallacy riddled narratives to implement them on their citizens(plug and play). Ones talking democracy have no idea, no beacon, paragon or ideal to look up to or achieve, neither the ones peddling secularism... a trojan horse and a dog whistle used by an entitled minority to get their way. The accuser then blames Muslims in West as beneficiaries of said largesse, Are they?
Or is it the Blacks, Latinos or Asians? None!
So, stop the act already!
But then perhaps they're probably looking at a textbook definition. Again, nothing to do with reality.

But above only shows how lost the whole bunch is... especially for anyone looking in... everyone seems to have an answer, except they're all wrong. But instead of rectifying the mistakes, learning or enlightening themselves they double down on their respective narratives. The very purpose of freedom is lost when you start endeavoring for another tyranny, imposition of another ideology... hoping two wrongs will make a right. Jinnah's was an attempt, that, he was a trailblazer, knew better than those who followed, true!
However, that doesn't mean he or Iqbal had all the answers but theirs was an attempt, subsequent ones only start splitting hairs on idealism vs counter idealism.

Many here are conflicted on the right answers, rightfully so, which is why history must be studied and in that native being the most significant one. For one to avoid repeating mistakes, of commission and omission, understanding the grounded reality and principled stances, perhaps lost in narratives. And finally where Islam lands in it's midst...
You will not know that if you assume western understanding of nation... they fought wars of language, ethnicity and creed. Islam didn't! It instead had a civil war(s)... ones grounded in understanding or lack thereof, of truth! It was not for a theocracy, Clerical rule or arab dominion... Which lasted till only the Umayyad period. Persians, Turks, Kurds and Slaves ruled Muslims!
Mahmood the son of slave defeated hindu shahi...
This lack of understanding and reading leads to current paradigm where a perennially subjugated hindu jibes a Muslim as a convert!
Western plug and play starts doing it's rounds and Kurds start seeking their own state ...
Isn't Turkiye secular?

When European understanding of secularism, based on language, race and creed is brought in... expect similar results, either lose identity, language, family/tribe or, fence yourself in and be on your face fascist/nationalist.
The rabbit hole...
fragmented and siloed narratives...

Liberalism and secularism will be the final nail in the coffin for pakistan if they pick up good numbers our society will crumble like a stack of cards.

 

[Great Janjua]

both of yall are stupid - those who say without Islam we are nothing as a "people"
you are just disrespecting our heritage and ancestors, if your love for your people only comes from their religious practices than you were never from us to begin with

those who say Pakistan and religion should be separate are also wrong - we are a conservative Muslim country and Islam is what keeps our society from disintegration A- along ethnic lines but even within that tribal, and clan lines

Islam has united our society (not just our country) like never in history, when we were Muslim but not as "Muslim" as we are rn, we were regularly fighting each other along clan lines like morons which kept us back as people took advantage of that fault lines, as our society Islamized those issues became irrelevant

Islam is a core part of Pakistani identity as our region has been Muslim for centuries now, it unites our society, gives it some sorta moral compass

I believe in the balance of both - it does not define us but its a very important part of us, Pakistan should reflect its society

so islam has a role to guide our laws and lawmaking, but it shouldn't play an active role in the decision-making, or statecraft of our country - IE how Malays or Indonesia works

hell even our own constitution if followed properly is a good blend of anglo-saxon laws with that of Islamic jurisprudence in modern world with more reforms over time itll become even better

issues is not more secularization or more Islamization - focus on the democratization of our government, politics and society
we'll become a great country, we dont ned to become 2000s Saudi Arabia or Shahs Iran to be a great country, our society is okay as is, it just needs democracy to fulfill its potential

First of all our tribal lineage is also respectable thats what distinguishes you in Islam tribes, qoum and your zaat is held in high regard no matter your a chamar or a Rajput Islam says to be proud of your lineage.

But our people are brain ded some of these nationalists think that before Islam they were all honky dory in subcontinent no they weren't female infanticide was a common occurrence just like in Arabia before the advent of Islam, Islam is what united these tribes.

Just look across the border even in indian punjab Chamar and chuhra have their separate Gurdwaras because they are still considered untouchables Sikh Jatts dont even sit with them let alone pray.


Same is the case for Hindus of Haryana they still practice female infanticide to a certain degree there now they run around looking for girls in other states.

Islam gave development and good concepts to our ancestors we should be proud of our lineage and religion.

The term musali which some people use a derogatory term actually means the guardian of the prayer matt.

 

[Great Janjua]

What Allah has blessed you with? You’re far from Allah you hypocrite. You literally live in a secular country and lecturing US about how bad secularism is? Go move to Saudi Arabia….othay bund maarwa apni.

You haven’t provided a single shred of evidence to suggest or prove that the Muslim League or Jinnah wanted an Islamic country.

Insult me all you want pedophile mullah.

Without Islam, Pakistan doesn’t vanish into thin air…the literal word PAKISTAN stems from the acronym PAKSTAN. This land has existed long before your religion showed up and will last long ager your religion disappears.

Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

View attachment 926416

Religious demographics of the Indus Valley & Pakistan
(Years of influence)

Indus Harappan religion (pre-3500 BCE to 1300 BCE)
+2200 years

Vedic religion (1500 BCE to 500 BCE)
1000 years

Buddhism (500 BCE to 700 AD)
1200 years

Hinduism (400 AD to 1000 AD)
600 years

Islam (700 AD to present)
1319 years

https://www.facebook.com/AncientPakistan.pk/posts/pfbid0cYhZUQpARSax757ioaGBaJAS2XwVF25AgG4GWYAHEuuqARqgbzW5AEJuE63yxwD1l

Open a book and educate yourself

What did Hinduism or Animism bless this land with let me guess Female infanticide, worshipping of Brahmins the Varna system strict dietary and lifestyle practices the list carries on.

Pakistan acronym was envisioned as a land for Muslims of Punjab, Sindh, Balochistan, Kashmir and NWFP it was for these people if you weren't so brain dead you would know the original map that was proposed for the Indian subcontinent by Chaudhry Rehmat Ali was for the whole Indian subcontinent Muslims with different mini Muslim autonomous states.

Islam gave literature and made countless development to the local culture and removed its evil practices. If it weren't for Islam you wouldn't be here talking smack like this and would have been one of the many victims of female infanticide.

Examples:

Sati: The practice of Sati, in which a widow would throw herself on her husband's funeral pyre, was once considered a noble act of devotion in Hinduism. However, this practice was banned by the British colonial government in the early 19th century.
Caste discrimination: The caste system, which assigns social and occupational status based on birth
Devadasi system: The devadasi system, in which young girls were dedicated to Hindu deities and expected to serve as temple prostitutes
Female infanticide, or the practice of killing newborn female infants, has been a serious issue in India for many years. The cultural preference for male children.


Na muhn na matha Jin paaru latha.

Aap tenu pata ni history da te gayan denay vekho ais chawalat de.

 

[Great Janjua]

it means namaazi - Musalli is an Arabic word that means “one who prays”, “one who performs the Salat”

That is the literal meaning..... it was bestowed upon chamars in the region of Panjab after they converted to Islam. Chatgpt use karne waste dimagh vi chahi de LMFAO.

Just like Ramdasia was a title given to Chamars and Chuhras who converted into Sikhism and Ramgarhia for Tarkhans and other artisan classes.

 

[VCheng]

it means namaazi - Musalli is an Arabic word that means “one who prays”, “one who performs the Salat”

And a Jumadar was a high rank in the Mughal hierarchy named after the Muslim weekly holy day, until the English gave it the meaning that remain popular to this day.

 

[VCheng]

cleaner?

Yes. Cleaner. Sweeper. Gutter cleaner. Etc.

 

[Great Janjua]

just look it up in a dictionary, molvi sahab.
do you want to talk to me in Arabic to show that you are not a google graduate and youtube educated scholar?

what kind of islamic preaching is this?

Abhay Jantu did I ask for the literal meaning if you weren't so brain-ded mr Ukrainian knight saab you would know the title of Musali was given to Chamar and Chuhra converts to Islam were branded Musalay de Malik.

Stop behaving like a Jehovah witness knock and door run.

 

[Sayfullah]

both of yall are stupid - those who say without Islam we are nothing as a "people"
you are just disrespecting our heritage and ancestors, if your love for your people only comes from their religious practices than you were never from us to begin with

those who say Pakistan and religion should be separate are also wrong - we are a conservative Muslim country and Islam is what keeps our society from disintegration A- along ethnic lines but even within that tribal, and clan lines

Islam has united our society (not just our country) like never in history, when we were Muslim but not as "Muslim" as we are rn, we were regularly fighting each other along clan lines like morons which kept us back as people took advantage of that fault lines, as our society Islamized those issues became irrelevant

Islam is a core part of Pakistani identity as our region has been Muslim for centuries now, it unites our society, gives it some sorta moral compass

I believe in the balance of both - it does not define us but its a very important part of us, Pakistan should reflect its society

so islam has a role to guide our laws and lawmaking, but it shouldn't play an active role in the decision-making, or statecraft of our country - IE how Malays or Indonesia works

hell even our own constitution if followed properly is a good blend of anglo-saxon laws with that of Islamic jurisprudence in modern world with more reforms over time itll become even better

issues is not more secularization or more Islamization - focus on the democratization of our government, politics and society
we'll become a great country, we dont ned to become 2000s Saudi Arabia or Shahs Iran to be a great country, our society is okay as is, it just needs democracy to fulfill its potential

Yes we have a rich history even before our ancestors reverted to Islam.
But if Islam is removed from Pakistan, what justification is there to keep a Pashtun separated from Afghanistan, Baloch from other Baloch areas in other countries, Panjabis from East Panjab, Sindhis from Indian Sindhis, Wakhis from their same ethnicity in northern Afghanistan and Tajikistan etc.

Pakistan rn is only united due to Islam. Because without islam why would a Pashtun or Panjabi feel more affection to one another while their own kind is separated from them? Us having rich histories is exactly why Pakistan would disentigrate if Islam is removed from it. None of the ethnicities in Pakistan are exclusively only in Pakistan. All of them are split by borders. There’s nothing wrong with that tho because Islam unites us under a common cause and goal. But whats the justification for keeping those divisions without Islam?

Pakistan can keep its religious values and be super progressive in the world. Almost every other Muslim country is more Islamic than Pakistan.
Imo any other ideology is incompatible with Pakistan. Only Islam can unite such a ethnically diverse and divided nation.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Half of the brain deds on this very forum do not know their Grandparents and here they Generalise Pakistani society.


Liberalism and secularism will be the final nail in the coffin for pakistan if they pick up good numbers our society will crumble like a stack of cards.

Contrary to the jingoist brouhaha on this thread the real world implementation of secularism is in the garb of stealth... through media, popular culture, government/private spending and PR campaigns. It reflects in monopolistic control of narrative, breakdown of social order, development and housing devoid of community and molding of public opinion.
For example a community or a tribe may never let it's own fall to moral or social lows for a buck. However, an individual devoid of his/her faith/standing/community would...
Which is why a picture of idealism is marketed. When these initiated, the believers, land in erstwhile liberal and secular west... they are told conformity/uniformity in language, dress, conduct and even in virtue signaling. These very believers who scold their own to act, behave and legislate an ideal in their own spheres or nations, find it not enforced/practiced in the west.

It’s mutation is the current woke brigade.

 

[Great Janjua]

Yes we have a rich history even before our ancestors reverted to Islam.
But if Islam is removed from Pakistan, what justification is there to keep a Pashtun separated from Afghanistan, Baloch from other Baloch areas in other countries, Panjabis from East Panjab, Sindhis from Indian Sindhis, Wakhis from their same ethnicity in northern Afghanistan and Tajikistan etc.

Pakistan rn is only united due to Islam. Because without islam why would a Pashtun or Panjabi feel more affection to one another while their own kind is separated from them? Us having rich histories is exactly why Pakistan would disentigrate if Islam is removed from it. None of the ethnicities in Pakistan are exclusively only in Pakistan. All of them are split by borders. There’s nothing wrong with that tho because Islam unites us under a common cause and goal. But whats the justification for keeping those divisions without Islam?

Pakistan can keep its religious values and be super progressive in the world. Almost every other Muslim country is more Islamic than Pakistan.
Imo any other ideology is incompatible with Pakistan. Only Islam can unite such a ethnically diverse and divided nation.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Others like Usmani supported a vision for Pakistan that Jinnah was promoting.

Shabbir Ahmad Usmani (the man behind Objectives Resolution) was an orthodox Deobandi Mullah whose understanding of Islam was diametrically opposed to that of Jinnah

For example, after the death of Jinnah, Usmani argued on the Assembly floor that Non-Muslims could not be entrusted with the responsibility of framing the general policy or dealing with matters vital to the safety and integrity of Pakistan. Usmani believed that no Non-Muslim could be allowed to hold any "key post" in Islamic Pakistan. He even proposed Jizya for Non-Muslims. Usmani had in fact mocked Jinnah when the latter famously said that " in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims" by saying that Muslims will remain Muslims and Hindus will remain Hindus. Usmani had also declared Shia as Kafir (based on their alleged belief in Tahrif) while Jinnah refused to even declare Qadiyanis as Non-Muslim. The list goes on...

 

[M. Sarmad]

it means namaazi - Musalli is an Arabic word that means “one who prays”, “one who performs the Salat”

Yes, the term Musalli literally means 'one who prays'... The term was reserved for those Chuhras who had converted to Islam and who had given up eating carrion and removing night soil (Conversion alone wasn't enough)

And a Jumadar was a high rank in the Mughal hierarchy named after the Muslim weekly holy day, until the English gave it the meaning that remain popular to this day.

Are you sure that it was named after Jummah (Friday) and not Jama'h (group)?

 

[VCheng]

Are you sure that it was named after Jummah (Friday) and not Jama'h (group)?

While that may be a plausible alternative, it still does not affect the main point, given that it referred to a title of distinction for the previous rulers: The British made it a point to ensure that previously dignified positions became associated with menial and demeaning tasks, all and sundry seeing every day how those with such positions were treated by their new rulers. That is also why the practice of magnificent headdresses worn by previous nobility was turned into mandatory headgear for chowkidars and doormen who would salute their colonial masters upon entry to exclusive areas where dogs and Indians were famously not allowed.

The fact that we persist in perpetuating such disgraceful associations, and not their dignified roots, of such redefined words even today is a small indication of our continued cultural subservience that many decry here. It is also telling that mullah and moulvi can be used far more easily in a derogatory manner, but pandit, not so easily.

The British did not use such strategies only in India. They perfected such techniques upon the Scots, Welsh and Irish first, and practiced them throughout their Empire during its heyday.

Bonus question: Why is the White House named as such? Hint: It does not refer to the Anglo-Saxon skin color.

 

[Ssan]

Shabbir Ahmad Usmani (the man behind Objectives Resolution) was an orthodox Deobandi Mullah whose understanding of Islam was diametrically opposed to that of Jinnah

That’s a bit of a stretch. Deobandism as a movement has a pretty large range especially in earlier period.

You make a few claims here so I’ll ask for proofs- not necessarily because I claim you are wrong but because this will move this convo forward and there is always a context for things…

For example, after the death of Jinnah, Usmani argued on the Assembly floor that Non-Muslims could not be entrusted with the responsibility of framing the general policy or dealing with matters vital to the safety and integrity of Pakistan.

Provide reference for this here- I think he is only referring to the top position ie PM- as you know Jinnah had non-Muslims in the cabinet too and Usmani never made a fuss about that while Jinnah was alive.

Usmani believed that no Non-Muslim could be allowed to hold any "key post" in Islamic Pakistan.

Same provide reference for this- only one that I can see him arguing for is PM spot.

He even proposed Jizya for Non-Muslims.

Please provide reference for this too.

Usmani had in fact mocked Jinnah when the latter famously said that " in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims" by saying that Muslims will remain Muslims and Hindus will remain Hindus.

Provide reference for this. Jinnah said this in the context of equality under law in civil sense similar to England.

Usmani had also declared Shia as Kafir (based on their alleged belief in Tahrif) while Jinnah refused to even declare Qadiyanis as Non-Muslim. The list goes on...

Reference for this too. Usmani might have declared some shia beliefs as non-Muslim beliefs but this is different from proclaiming that a person is nonmuslim. As you know Jinnah was Shia himself.

For those reading here, I want to clarify that tahrif is the belief that the Quran had been changed or that some surahs of it have been lost. This is a very minority position amongst extreme Shia groups. Ofc, the majority of Shias do not believe this at all. In general in theology, one can make a difference and point out that an idea is blasphemy - much like the deobandi schools find the idea of istigatha, calling upon dead people for help, to be blasphemy as well. But they make a difference between the idea and the person, uzur bil jahl, intention all these things will stop them from making takfeer of a person of a group because of their membership to it. So you need to prove that Usmani said that Shias are kafirs and that they cannot be PM etc.