Why India needs NASAMS when it is getting S-400? : Dmitry Shugaev

[war&peace]

Because we are not fools like some of our neighbours to put all our eggs in one single big basket.

You will know in due course of time who was foolish and who was not

 

[Tom M]

You will know in due course of time who was foolish and who was not

Sure. And I guess it won't take much long.

 

[The Deterrent]

Yes, and no.

The SPYDER MR radar setup is completely different from NASAMS. A single SPYDER-MR battery has only 1 FCR connected to probably 4-6 launchers. Otoh, a single NASAMS battery has 8 FCRs and 12 launchers. So you can distribute the system in a much better way across an entire city.

Okay, so why not just get more FCRs for a Delhi-specific deployment? A custom battery perhaps?

Also, the SPYDER-MR came in through a separate IAF program. There are two more programs, SPYDER-SR and DRDO QRSAM for the IA. There is another separate program under IN as well. And the NASAMS came in through a separate project for protecting Delhi. So these programs are designed not to conflict with the other programs just for the sake of commonality, requirements are paramount. Meaning, there is no mechanism to simply order more SPYDER-MRs for a different program just because the IAF has bought some.

That doesn't makes sense. What "conflict" can there be in ordering additional units? And why can't there be no mechanism to order more SPYDER-MRs, but there is a mechanism to order an entirely new system?

And of course, while the NASAMS is already a very good idea for bolstering the defences of a city, the Americans use the same system to protect Washington DC, there are political benefits to an Indo-US deal as well. It's very rare that a weapon the US is offering is of interest to India. Otherwise most of their current offers are just lemons.

True that US uses the same system, but again that doesn't really justifies the purchase when a plethora of SAM systems (Akash, SPYDER, Russian SAMs) is already in service with IAF/IA, and even more (QRSAM, Akash NG, MRSAM) are being developed/ordered. NASAMs being marginally better than those systems, and still being ordered, would just mean that the capabilities of existing/future SAMs are not trust-worthy or there is something else going on, as alleged by the article.

 

[khanmubashir]

Syria

 

[randomradio]

Okay, so why not just get more FCRs for a Delhi-specific deployment? A custom battery perhaps?

Terribly expensive. The Israeli radars are more capable, hence more expensive.

A custom battery perhaps?

You mean pay for a custom SPYDER SAM out of our own pocket? Why? The NASAMS is custom made for protecting large areas already. Plus it has one more advantage of being able to use other foreign-made missiles also, like Astra.

That doesn't makes sense. What "conflict" can there be in ordering additional units? And why can't there be no mechanism to order more SPYDER-MRs, but there is a mechanism to order an entirely new system?

It's bureaucratic. IAF Apaches came through a tender. IA wanted IAF to exercise the options clause in the tender and supply the additional helicopters to them. But the MoD disallowed it because the procurement rules do not permit such a sale. That's why IA had to initiate an FMS sale with the US for their Apaches through a separate process, and to control the services's procurement process. It's primarily because we don't yet have a Joint Chiefs. So all services work independently.

So yes, we cannot buy more SPYDER SAMs beyond what the DAC initially approved, including the options. If you want more SAMs, then you need a new DAC approval. Another procurement method is an IGA, like the Rafale deal, or any deal we sign with the Russians. IGAs allow starting negotiations and procuring more of the stuff, but this is all project specific for strategic systems like Rafale and S-400, not generic and easily available stuff like SPYDER.

This element of uncertainty forces the vendors to stay more competitive. Of course, this applies primarily to foreign systems.

True that US uses the same system, but again that doesn't really justifies the purchase when a plethora of SAM systems (Akash, SPYDER, Russian SAMs) is already in service with IAF/IA, and even more (QRSAM, Akash NG, MRSAM) are being developed/ordered. NASAMs being marginally better than those systems, and still being ordered, would just mean that the capabilities of existing/future SAMs are not trust-worthy or there is something else going on, as alleged by the article.

All the different missiles are being bought by different services.

IAF's "LLRQM" requirement is different from IA's "QRSAM" program versus IN's "SRSAM" program. I've put the program names in quotes. And all these programs are basically for the same class of SAMs. And Delhi's defence plan do not conflict with the other three programs.

So the LLQRM program happened first, and we saw the induction of SPYDER-MR.

The IN's SRSAM was supposed to be Maitri, but that's gone nowhere. So they have a tender out for that, which DRDO is hoping to stop with their QRSAM.

The IA's QRSAM, the IA asked DRDO to develop a new SAM, which DRDO has named QRSAM, the same as the IA's program name. And in the meantime the IA said they will also buy 3 regiments of SPYDER-SR out of the 8 regiments they need as parallel inductions, but DRDO is trying to stop that as well.

Basically, the requirement is so large for this category of SAMs and the deadline so short that suppliers are unlikely to meet our needs. I mean, the IA alone needs 8 regiments, we are talking about 100+ radars, nearly 400 launchers and 4000+ missiles. That's just the IA's requirement. Then you bring in IAF and IN, both need these QRSAMs in large numbers, you will notice that it will take years to finish these supplies.

Considering the Israelis are supplying SPYDER-MRs right now and DRDO wants to start supplying QRSAMs next year, it's unlikely either will be able to supply SAMs for Delhi. So NASAMS merely adds to our list of suppliers. Parallel inductions.

Of course, I've already mentioned about the political advantages of the NASAMS. Plus we can study the AMRAAM and Sidewinder also, since there's no difference between the ground launched and air launched versions.

Akash, MRSAM etc are independent from the LLQRM/QRSAM/SRSAM programs. They are not even in the same class.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Woldn't AAD & PAD serve the same purpose!!

AAD and PAD are for SRBMs and IRBMs,they cant deal with ground hugging cruise missiles like babur which must be intercepted very close to the surface and with quick reaction times.

 

[The Deterrent]

Terribly expensive. The Israeli radars are more capable, hence more expensive.

I see.

You mean pay for a custom SPYDER SAM out of our own pocket? Why? The NASAMS is custom made for protecting large areas already. Plus it has one more advantage of being able to use other foreign-made missiles also, like Astra.

No, I meant a custom battery (aka squadron), with more radars per squadron. AFAIK each SPYDER-MR squadron can be connected to another upto 100km away, which I believe is enough for Delhi & its suburbs.

It's bureaucratic. IAF Apaches came through a tender. IA wanted IAF to exercise the options clause in the tender and supply the additional helicopters to them. But the MoD disallowed it because the procurement rules do not permit such a sale. That's why IA had to initiate an FMS sale with the US for their Apaches through a separate process, and to control the services's procurement process. It's primarily because we don't yet have a Joint Chiefs. So all services work independently.

So yes, we cannot buy more SPYDER SAMs beyond what the DAC initially approved, including the options. If you want more SAMs, then you need a new DAC approval. Another procurement method is an IGA, like the Rafale deal, or any deal we sign with the Russians. IGAs allow starting negotiations and procuring more of the stuff, but this is all project specific for strategic systems like Rafale and S-400, not generic and easily available stuff like SPYDER.

This element of uncertainty forces the vendors to stay more competitive. Of course, this applies primarily to foreign systems.

If this is true, that in essence if it is easier to order an entirely new military equipment than just order more of existing units (which would be beneficial for training, spares, maintenance etc)...then this is plainly stupid. Indian military should rethink its procurement process.

All the different missiles are being bought by different services.

IAF's "LLRQM" requirement is different from IA's "QRSAM" program versus IN's "SRSAM" program. I've put the program names in quotes. And all these programs are basically for the same class of SAMs. And Delhi's defence plan do not conflict with the other three programs.

So the LLQRM program happened first, and we saw the induction of SPYDER-MR.

The IN's SRSAM was supposed to be Maitri, but that's gone nowhere. So they have a tender out for that, which DRDO is hoping to stop with their QRSAM.

The IA's QRSAM, the IA asked DRDO to develop a new SAM, which DRDO has named QRSAM, the same as the IA's program name. And in the meantime the IA said they will also buy 3 regiments of SPYDER-SR out of the 8 regiments they need as parallel inductions, but DRDO is trying to stop that as well.

Basically, the requirement is so large for this category of SAMs and the deadline so short that suppliers are unlikely to meet our needs. I mean, the IA alone needs 8 regiments, we are talking about 100+ radars, nearly 400 launchers and 4000+ missiles. That's just the IA's requirement. Then you bring in IAF and IN, both need these QRSAMs in large numbers, you will notice that it will take years to finish these supplies.

Considering the Israelis are supplying SPYDER-MRs right now and DRDO wants to start supplying QRSAMs next year, it's unlikely either will be able to supply SAMs for Delhi. So NASAMS merely adds to our list of suppliers. Parallel inductions.

Of course, I've already mentioned about the political advantages of the NASAMS. Plus we can study the AMRAAM and Sidewinder also, since there's no difference between the ground launched and air launched versions.

Akash, MRSAM etc are independent from the LLQRM/QRSAM/SRSAM programs. They are not even in the same class.

So in your opinion its more of a supply-demand deficit and the urgency to protect Delhi against aerial threats. If thats the case they should be equally worried about the BMD threat as well, and try to procure THAAD.

 

[randomradio]

No, I meant a custom battery (aka squadron), with more radars per squadron. AFAIK each SPYDER-MR squadron can be connected to another upto 100km away, which I believe is enough for Delhi & its suburbs.

The above picture is equivalent to a NASAMS battery. Meaning, 3 of these batteries have 72 ready to fire missiles, similar to a NASAMS battery. However the SPYDER-SR setup above has only 3 radars, while the NASAMS comes with 8. The MR adds more missiles and less launchers, but the radar setup is the same. For an equivalent number of launchers, the NASAMS provides more radars.

The problem with SPYDER is you take out one such radar, an entire sector is exposed to attacks. This is not a problem for an air base, since the area protected is very small and has sufficient overlap, but you can see how it can be a problem for Delhi. Delhi will also have many skyscrapers, which will create blind spots when you have fewer radars. NASAMS was custom made for protecting cities.

If this is true, that in essence if it is easier to order an entirely new military equipment than just order more of existing units (which would be beneficial for training, spares, maintenance etc)...then this is plainly stupid. Indian military should rethink its procurement process.

The procurement process is fine. It's been designed not to favour imports. And imports within this SAM segment has a small window, only in order to meet the supply gap.

And DRDO's QRSAM will be the standard model from now on anyway. It's significantly superior to both SPYDER-MR and NASAMS. It has more missiles per battery, can deal with significantly faster targets, fully automated, dedicated and purpose-designed missiles, the FCR is indistinguishable from regular trucks, and since it's fully Indian, it's far more integrated with our radar network.

So in your opinion its more of a supply-demand deficit and the urgency to protect Delhi against aerial threats.

Yes. Apart from the obvious political and tactical advantages of the NASAMS, it does not interfere with the procurement process of the other services.

If thats the case they should be equally worried about the BMD threat as well, and try to procure THAAD.

THAAD is way too expensive. You can expect the Americans not to provide the ToT necessary to integrate with our existing network, and the integration itself will cost a lot of money and time. And the follow-up political pressure to induct more THAAD batteries will be a major annoyance.

Also DRDO has a veto when it comes to imports, especially when it comes to tech they are also developing at the same time.

DRDO allowed the induction of S-400 only because it has an air defence function apart from BMD, the IAF has immediate need for long range AD. So, if the services make a case for THAAD at this time, then DRDO only has to point at their Phase 2 BMD system to shut them up. You need NOC from DRDO for most imports (in fact even FGFA is stuck partly because of this). And by the time THAAD comes to India, DRDO would have started supplies of the Phase 2 BMD, making the THAAD induction useless.

Anyway, our Phase 1 BMD does not have a supply gap issue. The missiles have been in production for many years through other programs, like Prithvi and Prahaar. So we can scale up anytime.[/QUOTE]

 

[The Deterrent]

The above picture is equivalent to a NASAMS battery. Meaning, 3 of these batteries have 72 ready to fire missiles, similar to a NASAMS battery. However the SPYDER-SR setup above has only 3 radars, while the NASAMS comes with 8. The MR adds more missiles and less launchers, but the radar setup is the same. For an equivalent number of launchers, the NASAMS provides more radars.

The problem with SPYDER is you take out one such radar, an entire sector is exposed to attacks. This is not a problem for an air base, since the area protected is very small and has sufficient overlap, but you can see how it can be a problem for Delhi. Delhi will also have many skyscrapers, which will create blind spots when you have fewer radars. NASAMS was custom made for protecting cities.

So as I said, a custom battery with more radars could do the same job.

And DRDO's QRSAM will be the standard model from now on anyway. It's significantly superior to both SPYDER-MR and NASAMS. It has more missiles per battery, can deal with significantly faster targets, fully automated, dedicated and purpose-designed missiles, the FCR is indistinguishable from regular trucks, and since it's fully Indian, it's far more integrated with our radar network.

I think its a bit early to speculate on QRSAM's on-paper capabilities. It would be wishful thinking IMO to declare it superior to proven SAM systems.

DRDO allowed the induction of S-400 only because it has an air defence function apart from BMD, the IAF has immediate need for long range AD. So, if the services make a case for THAAD at this time, then DRDO only has to point at their Phase 2 BMD system to shut them up. You need NOC from DRDO for most imports (in fact even FGFA is stuck partly because of this). And by the time THAAD comes to India, DRDO would have started supplies of the Phase 2 BMD, making the THAAD induction useless.

DRDO hasn't even tested ANY Phase 2 ABM, how can you claim that it will be developed faster than it will take to order & deliver THAAD? It has been more than a decade since PAD/AAD were first tested, and there is still no sign of them in operational deployment.

Anyway, our Phase 1 BMD does not have a supply gap issue. The missiles have been in production for many years through other programs, like Prithvi and Prahaar. So we can scale up anytime.

Do you have any reliable quote for that?
AFAIK PAD was a tech demonstrator, AAD is still undergoing tests (the last one being the first one in operational configuration), and PDV has to undergo much more tests before production can even be thought of. The target of 2014 by DRDO chief for BMD deployment has still not been achieved. The construction of radar sites began last year.
If the Phase-1 BMD is deployed, where is it? Which IAF squadron operates it? Where are the LRTRs & Launch vehicles?

 

[randomradio]

So as I said, a custom battery with more radars could do the same job.

The customisation process would have been more expensive than just buying the NASAMS and would have taken way too long anyway. And we would be paying more for the radars.

It's better to spend development money on our own stuff. NASAMS is adequate for the job and is not expensive.

I think its a bit early to speculate on QRSAM's on-paper capabilities. It would be wishful thinking IMO to declare it superior to proven SAM systems.

I don't think it's going to take long.

And it's not on-paper capabilities, 4 tests have already been carried out. It's only a 4-year project from paper design to induction, and it started in 2014. DRDO hopes to being user trials next year.

Also, the requirement for this missile is to attack targets flying from mach 2 up to mach 2.5. The requirement from foreign vendors is only mach 1.5. So it comfortably beats the SPYDER hands down.

DRDO hasn't even tested ANY Phase 2 ABM, how can you claim that it will be developed faster than it will take to order & deliver THAAD? It has been more than a decade since PAD/AAD were first tested, and there is still no sign of them in operational deployment.

The radars, C&C etc are already finishing development. We only need to test the new missiles, which is supposed to take 4 years.

Rather, the S-400 fulfils stop-gap measures while the Phase 2 is being tested. THAAD simply duplicates the S-400's BMD capabilities, and the time frame of THAAD's induction is unrealistic. Regardless DRDO will veto it.

Do you have any reliable quote for that?
AFAIK PAD was a tech demonstrator, AAD is still undergoing tests (the last one being the first one in operational configuration), and PDV has to undergo much more tests before production can even be thought of. The target of 2014 by DRDO chief for BMD deployment has still not been achieved. The construction of radar sites began last year.
If the Phase-1 BMD is deployed, where is it? Which IAF squadron operates it? Where are the LRTRs & Launch vehicles?

I think you have misunderstood. The AAD form factor has been used for Prahaar. And PDV is a Prithvi missile modified for BMD. Both these missiles have been in production since a long time. So what I'm saying is production is not an issue for the Phase 1 and we can scale up easily.

Phase 1 is yet to being inducted. They are working out the contract for limited series production.

 

[The Deterrent]

The customisation process would have been more expensive than just buying the NASAMS and would have taken way too long anyway. And we would be paying more for the radars.

It's better to spend development money on our own stuff. NASAMS is adequate for the job and is not expensive.

What customization process? All I'm referring to here is the addition of more radars per squadron. That's it! The only costs for doing so would include the cost of additional radars and more comms.

And if NASAMs is so good AND cheap, why not just order it in more numbers and stop acquisition of similar SAMs?

I don't think it's going to take long.

And it's not on-paper capabilities, 4 tests have already been carried out. It's only a 4-year project from paper design to induction, and it started in 2014. DRDO hopes to being user trials next year.

We're all very well aware of how much DRDO delivers on deadlines.

The radars, C&C etc are already finishing development. We only need to test the new missiles, which is supposed to take 4 years.

Again, 4 years is too short when you compare it with Phase-1, 12 years and counting.

I think you have misunderstood. The AAD form factor has been used for Prahaar. And PDV is a Prithvi missile modified for BMD. Both these missiles have been in production since a long time. So what I'm saying is production is not an issue for the Phase 1 and we can scale up easily.

Phase 1 is yet to being inducted. They are working out the contract for limited series production.

Ah, I see. For AAD, you're right. But for PDV, you're not, since PDV is solid-fueled and completely different from liquid-fueled Prithvi series or PAD.
Let's see if Phase-1 gets deployed by even 2020, in just Delhi & Mumbai.

 

[randomradio]

What customization process? All I'm referring to here is the addition of more radars per squadron. That's it! The only costs for doing so would include the cost of additional radars and more comms.

It's not as cheap as you think. The EL/M 2084 is an expensive radar. And yes, adding more radars requires both hardware and software customisation. We are not willing to pay for such dumb sunk costs and then pay for a large battery, when we can get a ready-made already customised battery.

And if NASAMs is so good AND cheap, why not just order it in more numbers and stop acquisition of similar SAMs?

Yes, it is likely we have already stopped plans to procure more alternate SAMs.

IAF signed up for SPYDERs in 2008, and that will end soon. And IA is currently looking at a few regiments of SPYDER-SR, but it's likely even they will decide not to go for the SPYDER. The NASAMS doesn't yet have a highly mobile version, NASAMS III is an ongoing development, so it's not in competition here.

IAF and IN will also be going for DRDO's new SAM from now on.

We're all very well aware of how much DRDO delivers on deadlines.

This is one of those programs that has been on time. That's why the greater interest in it.

For example, even the navy is now only importing 4 SRSAMs instead of 10 systems, and will be buying 10 of DRDO's new SAM and are interested in more after that.

Again, 4 years is too short when you compare it with Phase-1, 12 years and counting.

Phase 1 is a massive program, much bigger than Phase 2. Phase 1 is all about the radars, interceptors and C&C, while Phase 2 is mainly about new interceptors.

Ah, I see. For AAD, you're right. But for PDV, you're not, since PDV is solid-fueled and completely different from liquid-fueled Prithvi series or PAD.

PDV has more modifications, but uses the Prithvi's first stage.

Let's see if Phase-1 gets deployed by even 2020, in just Delhi & Mumbai.

Sure, the full induction process does take at least 2 years after it's green-lit. Even the S-400 will take 2 years until first delivery. User trials will signal it has become operational.

 

[The Deterrent]

It's not as cheap as you think. The EL/M 2084 is an expensive radar. And yes, adding more radars requires both hardware and software customisation. We are not willing to pay for such dumb sunk costs and then pay for a large battery, when we can get a ready-made already customised battery.

I see.

Phase 1 is a massive program, much bigger than Phase 2. Phase 1 is all about the radars, interceptors and C&C, while Phase 2 is mainly about new interceptors.

The new interceptors need testing nevertheless, which I can bet won't take less than 4 years before production can begin.

PDV has more modifications, but uses the Prithvi's first stage.

No, PDV (PAD's replacement) has 2 solid-fuel stages. I think you're confusing it with PAD. PAD's first stage was Prithvi's liquid-fueled motor, that's why it couldn't be used operationally (can't store corrosive fuel on standby).

 

[Tshering22]

America Kay چکنے

It is not just American but a joint US-Norwegian missile system.

Point is, till AAD and PAD get active, we need some air cover over strategic cities. NASAM is that.

Though the sudden purchase is surprising for us as well.

 

[Fawadqasim1]

The above picture is equivalent to a NASAMS battery. Meaning, 3 of these batteries have 72 ready to fire missiles, similar to a NASAMS battery. However the SPYDER-SR setup above has only 3 radars, while the NASAMS comes with 8. The MR adds more missiles and less launchers, but the radar setup is the same. For an equivalent number of launchers, the NASAMS provides more radars.

The problem with SPYDER is you take out one such radar, an entire sector is exposed to attacks. This is not a problem for an air base, since the area protected is very small and has sufficient overlap, but you can see how it can be a problem for Delhi. Delhi will also have many skyscrapers, which will create blind spots when you have fewer radars. NASAMS was custom made for protecting cities.



The procurement process is fine. It's been designed not to favour imports. And imports within this SAM segment has a small window, only in order to meet the supply gap.

And DRDO's QRSAM will be the standard model from now on anyway. It's significantly superior to both SPYDER-MR and NASAMS. It has more missiles per battery, can deal with significantly faster targets, fully automated, dedicated and purpose-designed missiles, the FCR is indistinguishable from regular trucks, and since it's fully Indian, it's far more integrated with our radar network.



Yes. Apart from the obvious political and tactical advantages of the NASAMS, it does not interfere with the procurement process of the other services.



THAAD is way too expensive. You can expect the Americans not to provide the ToT necessary to integrate with our existing network, and the integration itself will cost a lot of money and time. And the follow-up political pressure to induct more THAAD batteries will be a major annoyance.

Also DRDO has a veto when it comes to imports, especially when it comes to tech they are also developing at the same time.

DRDO allowed the induction of S-400 only because it has an air defence function apart from BMD, the IAF has immediate need for long range AD. So, if the services make a case for THAAD at this time, then DRDO only has to point at their Phase 2 BMD system to shut them up. You need NOC from DRDO for most imports (in fact even FGFA is stuck partly because of this). And by the time THAAD comes to India, DRDO would have started supplies of the Phase 2 BMD, making the THAAD induction useless.

Anyway, our Phase 1 BMD does not have a supply gap issue. The missiles have been in production for many years through other programs, like Prithvi and Prahaar. So we can scale up anytime.

[/QUOTE]
Your name is right random radio.