Why has Pak lost against India every time?

[sword9]

"We had a decisive aim in 1971 and we did it. The war was started by us and finished by us, in 2 weeks time."

Another childish claim. When you freaking outnuber the defenders 1:4 and then bypass them entirely instead of duking it out with them, then you can't call it a rout! Yes it was probably a smart thing and I would have done the same but then I would not call it a rout! My sincere advice to you is to Learn the appropriate usage of this word prior to using it.

A new nation was created, and you want to agrue if it was a rout or not? Semantics ...semantics

 

[sword9]

Quote:
I have seen routed forces (On a smaller scale albeit) and yes i do know the difference between conventional and guerilla warfare having participated in both.

----Then that is whats happening in Iraq - Urban guerilla warfare. One cannot rout an insurgency, unless you use Ghengiz Khan tactics.----


It didn't start as a insurgency.......thanks for telling me what happened there

You were the one who went on a tangent about Iraq, and the rout of the Iraqi army, albet a beleaguered one.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hey I'm not the one making claims that the IA "routs when it wants"

By your own standards they only seem to have done it once (Which is disputed) which seems to be only 20% of the time.

Oh and if you don't want to argue about semantics. I suggest you don't make flippant remarks which have no basis in reality. MY tangent was to illustrate a point.

 

[sword9]

Hey I'm not the one making claims that the IA "routs when it wants"

...and I stand by it.

By your own standards they only seem to have done it once (Which is disputed) which seems to be only 20% of the time.

A dispute by an affected partly is generally biased, but I am yet to see you (a third party) logically refute a 2 week war that created a new nation, and not call it a rout.

Oh and if you don't want to argue about semantics. I suggest you don't make flippant remarks which have no basis in reality.

As for reality, you would'nt know the faintest about it, without an indept knowledge on the subject.

MY tangent was to illustrate a point.

The point is that you mixed by conventional warfare with the current insurgency in Iraq to indicate that the US forces did not rout the Iraqi. Don't confuse yourself.

 

[Keysersoze]

...and I stand by it.

A dispute by an affected partly is generally biased, but I am yet to see you (a third party) logically refute a 2 week war that created a new nation, and not call it a rout.

As for reality, you would'nt know the faintest about it, without an indept knowledge on the subject.

The point is that you mixed by conventional warfare with the current insurgency in Iraq to indicate that the US forces did not rout the Iraqi. Don't confuse yourself.

Oh dear and where does your "In depth" knowledge come from? Enlighten us to your vast experience in the field? Unless you have some special knowledge i suggest YOU don't talk down to anyone......because so far I haven't seen anything worth a damn....

The battle of HILLI
"The main objective of the Indian Army was to control Bogra, thereby cutting off Pakistan forces in the north from the rest of East Pakistan. The best way of getting to Bogra was through Hilli. The frontal assault on the Pakistan fortifications took a huge toll on both sides - the Indian Army suffering the
greater number of casualties - before Indian forces finally broke through"


Meghna Heli bridge
Meghna Heli Bridge was an operation mounted on 9 December 1971 by the Indian Air Force to Airlift troops of IV Corps of the Indian Army from Brahmanbaria to Raipura and Narsingdi over the River Meghna during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, bypassing the strong Pakistani defenses at Ashuganj and at the destroyed bridge over Meghna.

THE BATTLE OF BASANTAR
The Battle of Basantar or the Battle of Barapind (December 4th - 16th, 1971) was one of the vital battles fought as part of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 in the western sector of India. Despite being outnumbered, the Indian troops won a hard fought battle that secured this vital area in the Punjab/Jammu sector. The result was that more than 1000 square kilometers[1] of Pakistani territory was occupied by Indian forces. The name Battle of Basantar actually encompasses the entire gamut of battles and skirmishes fought in the Shakargarh sector.

I would direct your eyes toward the following phrases
GREATER NUMBER OF CASUALTIES
BYPASSING
HARD FOUGHT BATTLE

Funny.... every account refers to defeat rather than ROUT
Tell me about you "great knowledge" and "experience" before we continue this great debate....

 

[blain2]

A new nation was created, and you want to agrue if it was a rout or not? Semantics ...semantics

Indian Army has never routed Pakistan Army in any of the wars..(at unit levels we have just as many routes against your mighty army as you can claim against us).

In the end I would recommend that you learn to use the word in its proper context instead of claiming something that Indian Army has never been able to achieve in a war. :wall:

 

[blain2]

Whoever said that war was easy?

Well talk to me when you guys can accomplish something like that.

 

[blain2]

It was never the aim. In 1965 IA ops were a reactive action of Op Gibralter and Op Grand Slam.

Yes if you look at the overall war then you can say that maybe (even then the Indians had taken over Haji Pir pass in August, a full month before the actual war began)...however that does not preclude Indian operational plans to go across the IB if and when they had the opportunity to. And they tried really hard but were halted!

The fact of the matter is that the Indian attack against Lahore (comprising of 1 Inf Div and supported by 3 regts of 2n Ind Armd Bde) was brought to a dead halt due to the inability of the IA to establish a bridgehead across the BRB/Ichogil canal....had your mighty Army been able to cross over, they would have already crossed over the IB. So now please do not be so silly as to state that IA only wanted to keep PA busy across the IB so they decided to take BRB/Ichogil canal by launching a massive attack against Pakistani defensive positions around BRB. The Indian plans were to move inland if they had the opportunity, but were denied by stubborn Pakistani defences.

So you see the aim was to relieve pressure.

No I saw it as an opportunity for the Pakistani and Indian armies to socialize away from Lahore! Attacks against Sialkot was an Indian plan to widen the length of the front. Indian Army had the numerical superiority and wanted to exploit the Pakistani vulnerability in terms of defending the length of the N-S axis.

For smaller tactical level examples the Battle of Asal Uttar 1965, was decisive, it destroyed PAs 6 Armd Div, and in 1971 I believe you guys refer to the 18 Div retreat in Longewal as the Gadgor gallop.

Assal Uttar was definetly a tactical defeat for the 6 Armd Div (it lost 96 tanks), however the payback was a ***** for Indians as well at Chawinda in the Sialkot theater....over 3 days, Indians lost approx. 120 tanks. (I quote this from "The M47 and M48 Patton Tanks" by Steven J. Zaloga). This is approximately 3 times the number lost by the Pakistani units comprising of 25 Cavalry and some of the other regiments of the Pakistani 6 Armd Div. So as you can see, it has always been a two sided deal...we routed your attacks against Sialkot just as well as you "routed" Pakistani thrusts in and around the area of Assal Uttar.....so when you claim that Indian Army can rout when it wants to, remember that Pakistan Army has also opened cans of whoop *** many a times against this same mighty Army of yours.

 

[sword9]

Oh dear and where does your "In depth" knowledge come from? Enlighten us to your vast experience in the field? Unless you have some special knowledge i suggest YOU don't talk down to anyone......because so far I haven't seen anything worth a damn....

You will not see anything with your attitute.

The battle of HILLI
"The main objective of the Indian Army was to control Bogra, thereby cutting off Pakistan forces in the north from the rest of East Pakistan. The best way of getting to Bogra was through Hilli. The frontal assault on the Pakistan fortifications took a huge toll on both sides - the Indian Army suffering the
greater number of casualties - before Indian forces finally broke through"

Did Hilli prevent the collapse of Dacca?

Meghna Heli bridge
Meghna Heli Bridge was an operation mounted on 9 December 1971 by the Indian Air Force to Airlift troops of IV Corps of the Indian Army from Brahmanbaria to Raipura and Narsingdi over the River Meghna during the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971, bypassing the strong Pakistani defenses at Ashuganj and at the destroyed bridge over Meghna.

Good, now tell me what was the effect on Pak Eastern Command, Niazi was shytting bricks, and after the 14th Dec para drop of 2 Para at Tangail, he lost the will to fight.

THE BATTLE OF BASANTAR
The Battle of Basantar or the Battle of Barapind (December 4th - 16th, 1971) was one of the vital battles fought as part of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 in the western sector of India. Despite being outnumbered, the Indian troops won a hard fought battle that secured this vital area in the Punjab/Jammu sector. The result was that more than 1000 square kilometers[1] of Pakistani territory was occupied by Indian forces. The name Battle of Basantar actually encompasses the entire gamut of battles and skirmishes fought in the Shakargarh sector.

We are discussing the Eastern sector on the western sector, please don't confuse yourself.

I would direct your eyes toward the following phrases
GREATER NUMBER OF CASUALTIES
BYPASSING
HARD FOUGHT BATTLE

No read - command failure
Funny.... every account refers to defeat rather than ROUT

Tell me about you "great knowledge" and "experience" before we continue this great debate....

.
Stick around, and while you are at it ask the forum mods/admin why was the thread on "The Pilots" deleted?

 

[Keysersoze]

You will not see anythink with your attitute.

----My attitude is not coloured with blinding patriotism. I have asked you a simple question yet you have evaded it again it seems.

Did Hilli prevent the collapse of Dacca?

----No but it shows that there was a spirited defence...unusual in a rout.

Good, now tell me what was the effect on Pak Eastern Command, Niazi was shytting bricks, and after the 14th Dec para drop of 2 Para at Tangail, he lost the will to fight.

----Shitting bricks? obviously you have never been in combat to make a remark like that. Why did they need to bypass the troops if they were routing?

We are discussing the Eastern sector on the western sector, please don't confuse yourself.

----Still looking for the rout........... East or West is irrellevant to your claim. while we are at it, lets look at it a little more.....why didn't they rout the forces in the west? were they just fooling around? being shy?

No read - command failure command

--- failure doesn't count as a rout sunshine...
Funny.... every account refers to defeat rather than ROUT
.
Stick around, and while you are at it ask the forum mods/admin why was the thread on "The Pilots" deleted?

-----Ask them yourself...

----Stick around and while you are at it explain how the Indians routed the Chinese in 1962 after all the Indians rout when they want.

----In Conclusion don't use words you have no comprehension of....
and feel free to let us know your specialist knowledge...put your cards on the table.

 

[Keysersoze]

Hey if we apply your logic......(and generally I won't be )

The IA has "routed" once....and been "routed" once do you concur?

 

[sword9]

Indian Army has never routed Pakistan Army in any of the wars..(at unit levels we have just as many routes against your mighty army as you can claim against us).

Did I ever deny unit level valour of PA units? Never.

In the end I would recommend that you learn to use the word in its proper context instead of claiming something that Indian Army has never been able to achieve in a war. :wall:

All i know is that a 2 weeks war ending the collapse of an army, qualifies to be a rout.

...however the payback was a ***** for Indians as well at Chawinda in the Sialkot theater...

Chawinda was no payback it took place much before Asal Uttar.

....over 3 days, Indians lost approx. 120 tanks. (I quote this from "The M47 and M48 Patton Tanks" by Steven J. Zaloga). This is approximately 3 times the number lost by the Pakistani units comprising of 25 Cavalry and some of the other regiments of the Pakistani 6 Armd Div. So as you can see, it has always been a two sided deal...we routed your attacks against Sialkot just as well as you "routed" Pakistani thrusts in and around the area of Assal Uttar.....so when you claim that Indian Army can rout when it wants to, remember that Pakistan Army has also opened cans of whoop *** many a times against this same mighty Army of yours.

Mr.Steven J. Zaloga would be trying to save the reputation of the M47/M48 that was ripped apart by Centurians and Shermans. Now lets see what is my info...IA 1 Armd Bde (ex 1Armd Div) was in Pillora-Chawinda - if one assumes 120 tank losses that would be the whole brigade....lets see.

Chamb
IA losses - 14 AMX-13s tanks (C Sqn 20 Cav)

Chawinda-Pillora
PA losses - 170 (42 captured by IA)
IA losses - 29 destroyed, 41 damaged (repaired after the war).

Assal Uttar
PA losses - 97 (72 Pattons & 25 Shermans/ Chafees)

Khemkaran
IA losses - 32 (15 Shermans captured by PA)

Other PA losses
2 Shermans - in Hussainiwala
3 Shermans - in Dera Baba Nank enclave
1 Walker Bulldog - Chamb
7 tanks - Dograi

Total Pak losses - 280 (152 captured by IA)
Total Indian losses - 75

How many captured tanks do you actually have? Do they even match the 120 figure claimed by you?

References:
War Dspatches - by Lt Gen Harbaksh Singh
The Indo-Pak Conflict of 1965 - by Maj Sita Ram Johri
The Memoirs of Lt Gen Gul Hasan Khan
Fakhar-e-Hind: The Story of the Poona Horse

 

[sword9]

----My attitude is not coloured with blinding patriotism. I have asked you a simple question yet you have evaded it again it seems.

I have given fairly good examples.

Did Hilli prevent the collapse of Dacca?
----No but it shows that there was a spirited defence...unusual in a rout.

When we started this debate I mentioned strategic and not tactical. The defence of Hilli is classic example of a good defensive battle by PA's 205 Inf Bde.

----Shitting bricks? obviously you have never been in combat to make a remark like that. Why did they need to bypass the troops if they were routing?

It called maneuver - it is one of the main principle of warfare.

----Still looking for the rout........... East or West is irrellevant to your claim. while we are at it, lets look at it a little more.....why didn't they rout the forces in the west? were they just fooling around? being shy?

It means you are debating with superficial knowledge.

--- failure doesn't count as a rout sunshine...
Funny.... every account refers to defeat rather than ROUT

.
Good, then 1962 defeat from China does not count as a rout, since it was command failure by the Indian IV Corps Commander.

Stick around and while you are at it explain how the Indians routed the Chinese in 1962 after all the Indians rout when they want

See the point above, you just stated that command failure does not amount to defeat.

 

[sword9]

Hey if we apply your logic......(and generally I won't be )

The IA has "routed" once....and been "routed" once do you concur?

Yes I agree.

 

[Keysersoze]

So I guess the IA doesn't get to rout all the time after all huh?

Oh and a Final point...do not presume to talk down to me with comments like:

"It called maneuver - it is one of the main principle of warfare."

As I have put a lot of time in uniform (including ACTUAL conflicts).More than you I wager.

"It means you are debating with superficial knowledge."

Ah I am sorry I must not have read the "special secret books" that you obviously have.

OH and I am still awaiting your credentials.......don't worry, not holding my breath