Why China will chose India over Pakistan

[Guynextdoor]

yes, what is important is self reliance as well as diversification, but that is where our bad luck is, we have no politicians, no leaders to have such foresight and lead us to such destination.

Instead of abandoning China, we have the greatest opportunity to avail their experience and develop ourselves, similarly joint collaboration with other countries, we have God given everything, oil, gas, solar energy, wind energy, hard working people, huge population, country with vast resources, location, sea and what not, all is needed, leaders who can propel us forward.

We need a revolution to get rid of these Oligarchs as well as foreign influence.

What you guys really need is India...let go of all these conspiracy theories. If Indian companies like Tata were asked to invest in Pak, they'll do it for reasons beyond profit. They've always taken great pride in the role that they have played in history of the subcontinent...made Indian self reliant, gave the common man in India the chepest car etc., They would LOVE to set up and contribute to your prosperity coz they'll be looking at it beyond profts...as ambassadors of peace in the subcontinent...something the chinese will rarely be able to do coz their decisions won't have an emotional component to it.

 

[Guynextdoor]

Also 1 thing is, Inidans are been given lots of respect all over the world not because they love Indians or Indians are very great nation (no offense) but because of Indian economical boost, and trade opportunities with Inida.. Everyone even Soudi Arabia, started to lean more towards India who was used to be biggest Allie of Pakistan..

What Pakistan's problem is, we are more dependent at our friends in terms of Financial help and support in many other areas.. We mostly rely at them and thus we are kinda burden at them instead of a healthy friend.. So it start to annoy them after some times.. Pakistan must look at its internal issues seriously and MUST boost its economy in coming 5 - 7 years.. other wise things are going to become even more worst for Pakistan..

Dude, the 'economical boost' is not a small thing...comes with 1000's of Kms of national highway, 100's of projects and technical and educational effort. What the world sees is a true intent to pull out of our existing problem and effort for many many decades to achieve that. How many countries in the world show that kind of focus and intelligence (in policy)? . We've been largely stable...didn't go to or provoke wars for no reason...seem to be more interested in making ourselves better. The world understands that and respects that.

Why do you think we got that Nuclear Deal? It's easy to say 'we want nuclear power', everyone can say that...But what the americans saw was that apart from initiating lots of regular power projects, we've got over TWELVE new nuke plants on the line and a TARGET of 20,000 MW (I think that's the entire power generation capacity of pak). Now you say you want the deal coz you want parity and you want two nuke reactors and then americans compare it with us...they really can't compare can they?

 

[Developereo]

Pakistan does offer and lucrative Defence and Consumer Retail Market to China

It is in China's national interest to see a strong Pakistan but, at the end of the day, it is up to Pakistanis to develop Pakistan. We should be taking full advantage of China's friendship and, to a limited extent, the West's to develop Pakistan.

Like India, we have a large pool of talented, hard working people but, unlike India, the talent in Pakistan is not developed and utilized as well as it could. We could achieve much if we combine innate Pakistani talent, Chinese ethic of hard work, Western technological know-how and Middle Eastern investment. Essentially, what India is doing now can be achieved in Pakistan also if we have the right leadership. It is being done in isolated, small scale sections even within Pakistan, but not on a national scale. Not enough to catapult the economy into high gear.

There is no such thing as lasting friendship in international politics. Its only permanent interests. And as long as those interests are aligned friendship remains.

True, but countries have a choice even when picking short-term 'friends'. All things considered, a strong healthy ally is preferable to one that needs support. China would be much happier if Pakistan's foreign policy was not held hostage to American or Saudi aid. Heck, Pakistanis would be much happier...

Long term, China's interests are served much better by Pakistan than by India. As stated earlier, we are big enough to be a good ally and customer, but not big enough to be a threat. My point about China favoring India over Pakistan was that public opinion and capitalism always promote a short-term view rather than a long term strategy and, as such, India will seem more appealing to the average Chinese citizen.

Also, we don't have resource (water) contention issues with China. India has water issues with all its neighbors, including Pakistan, China and Bangladesh. This will cause problems in the long run, no doubt about it.

 

[Jazzbot]

Dude, the 'economical boost' is not a small thing...comes with 1000's of Kms of national highway, 100's of projects and technical and educational effort. What the world sees is a true intent to pull out of our existing problem and effort for many many decades to achieve that. How many countries in the world show that kind of focus and intelligence (in policy)? . We've been largely stable...didn't go to or provoke wars for no reason...seem to be more interested in making ourselves better. The world understands that and respects that.

Why do you think we got that Nuclear Deal? It's easy to say 'we want nuclear power', everyone can say that...But what the americans saw was that apart from initiating lots of regular power projects, we've got over TWELVE new nuke plants on the line and a TARGET of 20,000 MW (I think that's the entire power generation capacity of pak). Now you say you want the deal coz you want parity and you want two nuke reactors and then americans compare it with us...they really can't compare can they?

I know all these things and agree with you at all these points, but my focus was at Pakistan, used India as an example.

To me, apart from all above things, the main difference between India and Pakistan is Leadership. Tell you what, Pakistan have all above things you've stated above. Pakistani and Indian ppl are born at same soil, we are very much similar in almost every field in life.. Pakistani ppl are as hardworking and talented as Indians are. The real difference is leadship and policies of leaders of both countries..

Its indian leaders and their policies that took indian to today's heights and its pakistani leaders and their stupid policies that Pakistan is lying in a whole finding itself deep down under.. Un-fortunately we didn't had even a single true leader after Jinnah, which is a huge set back in history of Pakistan. Bhutto is often considered as a leader lol, but he was a bastard who caused birth of Bangladesh. In short, we have everything, and water is still not over our heads, all we need is a good leader and sensible policy makers.. If we'll have them, in few years world will see a Rising Pakistan..

 

[Guynextdoor]

I know all these things and agree with you at all these points, but my focus was at Pakistan, used India as an example.

To me, apart from all above things, the main difference between India and Pakistan is Leadership. Tell you what, Pakistan have all above things you've stated above. Pakistani and Indian ppl are born at same soil, we are very much similar in almost every field in life.. Pakistani ppl are as hardworking and talented as Indians are. The real difference is leadship and policies of leaders of both countries..

Its indian leaders and their policies that took indian to today's heights and its pakistani leaders and their stupid policies that Pakistan is lying in a whole finding itself deep down under.. Un-fortunately we didn't had even a single true leader after Jinnah, which is a huge set back in history of Pakistan. Bhutto is often considered as a leader lol, but he was a bastard who caused birth of Bangladesh. In short, we have everything, and water is still not over our heads, all we need is a good leader and sensible policy makers.. If we'll have them, in few years world will see a Rising Pakistan..

Ummm...qualified agreement. we were blessed to have SOME indian leaders in policy positions- specifically Manmohan Singh & Chidambaram whose names will be written in gold in the history of our country. N they've made sacrifices..Chidambaram was a Harvard Business School MBA., could have been the CEO of any company he wanted but decided like Manmohan Singh (Cambridge don) to dedicate himself to the country...maybe some more good leaders.

But I can give you names who'll make Zardari look like an angel any day...some who'll ruin you with their corruption and some who'll destroy you with their integrity (ya that happens in India when kooky left leaning politicans get too carried away by their 'cause'... )

 

[indushek]

It may be or may not be but i would love to see the day when Indians and Pakistanis sign a strategic cooperation agreement in Defence, i.e i mean we can supply with whatever weaponry we have and vice versa. Also attack on one country is the attack on others. India and Russia had this agreement. May be its hoping for too much.

 

[vsdoc]

I agree with guynextdoor about the emotional or human angle to a longlasting sustainable relationship between two nations. And that is something that India and Pakistan can have, which need in no way be seen as a substitute or at the cost of other pre-existing ties.

I have always said that it is not possibe to really hate someone if at sometime in the past there was no love. Strong emotions are always two sides of a single coin. And as a people we tend to be hyper-emotional.

Cheers, Doc

 

[majesticpankaj]

I am not saying China will love India, but they will learn to coexist 'peacefully', the same as China and Russia coexist 'peacefully'.

It means China will be more responsive to Indian 'concerns' about Pakistan. If they have to chose between Chinese economic interests and Pakistan, they will drop Pakistan. They may hate India's guts, but they will not sacrifice their interests to save Pakistan. If Pakistan was strong economically and militarily, it could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with China in its fight against India. But we are not. We are a poor country with a basket-case economy that continually needs to be propped up.

I am not saying we should abandon China, but I see the same attitude of helpless dependence that we had towards the US, then towards Saudi Arabia, and now towards China.

Self-reliance and a cooperative alliance with like-minded moderate countries like Turkey (or even Iran) is not on the cards because the feudal-military has no interest in a long term strategy that involves hard work and a consistent, stable strategy. Iran may not be moderate by most people's definition but, unlike the Arabs, they are at least trying to be self-sufficient and decide their own foreign policy.



I agree that China will try to use Pakistan just to prod India. Just as the US used Pakistan to prod the Soviet satellitle India, and Saudi Arabia used Pakistan to prod Iran. In the former two cases, our interests coincide, so we don't mind being 'used', but Zia's sellout to the Saudis has utterly ruined Pakistan for generations to come.

At some point, we have to find leaders who don't sell us out in exchange for a healthy commission on foreign aid.

i must say, very pragmatic analysis, i think the most important thing for the country is leadership, look at china, japan and other countries. Zia is the fine example, how a leader drag u back with his policies and the example of manmohan singh, how he brought back india on the right track.

 

[majesticpankaj]

I think it is better that we should ask a chinese about whether they will choose India over Pakistan or not?

I am not interested in any Indian's rant about huge economy or any Pakistani's pathetic expert opinion.

So I would ask the chinese members of this forum to give us their opinion.

gimme a break, the basis of international relationship is economics, countries dont take decisions on the basis of emotions. do u think USA attacked so many countries bcoz they want democracy?????

 

[maverick-mav]

Well i guess the important thing for Pakistan, as mentioned by many above, is to improve their economy. If India and Pakistan are bound to each other with economic interests, then even with the hostilities both countries will flourish. Money is king.

I guess the main reason for China and India having "cordial" relations is because of the economic engagement. Trade is far important than a small peace of land. $40bn might not be big but is not small enough to ignore.

Strong economy means strong Pakistan = = stable and prosperous Pakistan. Then countries will line up for the business opportunities and not to counter balance any one.

 

[Bang Galore]

A very thought provoking piece. I don't agree necessarily with the conclusion that China will/or needs to make that choice. The Chinese will always want the Pakistani lever in their hands no matter how much their relationship with India improves. Discarding that lever would make no conceivable sense for the Chinese.

From the Pakistani viewpoint, there is much to learn from the Chinese-Indian relationship. Not as you do often, by looking at China but by looking at India. The Indo-China relationship has some of the same complexities that Indo-Pak relationship has with Pakistan taking on India's role & India taking on China's role. Bitter memories of the past have not held the whole Indo-China relationship completely hostage to a single agenda as has been the case with Pakistan-India. India, without changing her stated position has built up a relationship of some complexity with China. Trade brings mutual benefit and helps in economic upliftment of a lot of people. I agree with the point that Pakistan needs to be economically stronger but how exactly is that going to be achieved if you refuse to engage in economic activity that would benefit you, simply for the reason that it might also benefit India?

Indians & Pakistanis are emotional people, the Chinese less so. We talk about a 1000 year war, eating grass to build a nuclear bomb & in the end we have the nuclear bomb but our people are actually eating grass. We come on forums such as these & rant about dropping the nuclear bum & cursing each other while the pragmatic Chinese build for & trade with the Japanese & the Americans. Chinese are precisely so dangerous (admiringly so) because they are so focused on their objectives and single mindedly so. Not for them the childish rants & the emotional outbursts of the likes of us, they know what it takes to get to the high table & they are not about to let anyone or anything, least of all, their own emotions from getting them there.

Something for the both of our countries to learn from that.

 

[theboss]

I have to agree pakistan has been greatly lacking in its cultural "soft power" and is likely to lose to India. Also India has a strong education system while Pakistan has Madrassas and some very good private universities.

 

[oct605032048]

Well there's the difference. Compare this with the American doctrine which is crystal clear to everyone on the planet: "We are unconditionally committed to Israel's security."

Any country that dares to attack Israel knows that it will have a fleet of B2 bombers overhead within a matter of hours.

.

We don't have B-2 bombers to fulfill such commitments but China helped in the development of nuclear warheads and missiles in Pakistan Army.

 

[Developereo]

The Indo-China relationship has some of the same complexities that Indo-Pak relationship has with Pakistan taking on India's role & India taking on China's role. Bitter memories of the past have not held the whole Indo-China relationship completely hostage to a single agenda as has been the case with Pakistan-India.

The Pakistan-India relationship is a lot more complex since, on the one hand, we share so much culture but, on the other, we had a particularly brutal 'divorce' with a million dead.

Indians will disagree but, to many in Pakistan, Kashmir is an emotional issue because it rings echoes of the violent separation. It is unfinished business -- the mate who got left behind and is crying out for help. There is no such parallel in the India-China relationship.

The Chinese are also emotional about Taiwan, but as long as the West is buying their products and helping build their economy, why complain?

I have to agree pakistan has been greatly lacking in its cultural "soft power" and is likely to lose to India. Also India has a strong education system while Pakistan has Madrassas and some very good private universities.

That is my main point. What matters at the end of the day is not military power, but soft power. Israel enjoys unconditional Western support because of the immense soft power of its proponents. India has been especially adept at using soft power. From Middle East to Europe and the Americas, when most people think of India, they think of chicken tikka, yoga and Bollywood. There is a perception of immense poverty, but it is not what defines India to most people.

We don't have B-2 bombers to fulfill such commitments but China helped in the development of nuclear warheads and missiles in Pakistan Army.

And we are grateful for that. In fact, I would be extremely uncomfortable if Pakistan depended on guarantees from another country for its own security. All we can ask from the Chinese is to provide technological and diplomatic support. Anything else would be nice, but we shouldn't depend on it.

Along with that, I think there should be a lot more cultural exchange between the two countries.

 

[vsdoc]

The Pakistan-India relationship is a lot more complex since, on the one hand, we share so much culture but, on the other, we had a particularly brutal 'divorce' with a million dead.

Indians will disagree but, to many in Pakistan, Kashmir is an emotional issue because it rings echoes of the violent separation. It is unfinished business -- the mate who got left behind and is crying out for help.

You and most Pakistanis will disagree, but to all of us in India, Pakistan is an emotional issue for much the same reason.

It is unfinished business -- the prodigal younger brother who left home in a huff, and who has now been left behind and is crying to all and sundry for help.

Except us.

What most of you mistake for hate amongst our older generations (it is increasingly diminished with each passing generation .... sadly soon to reach the tipping point of irrelevancy) is actually a feeling of hurt and betrayal.

Cheers, Doc