What's new

Why Aurangzeb and Mahmud Ghazni are heroes in Pakistan but villains in India

Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
1,513
Reaction score
-2
Country
India
Location
India
For all our collective apathy towards history, the constant spotlight on the subject in Pakistan and India is mind-boggling. I say “collective apathy” because compared to the more commercially viable education degrees such as engineering, business, medicine and computer science, history as a formal discipline is rarely the top choice for students.

In the Pakistani context at least, the popular perspective is that those who study history do so to improve their chances in the civil services examination. While history books remain one of the most popular genres sold at bookstores, their limited sales in both countries has been much discussed over the years. The State too contributes to this apathy by allowing numerous historical monuments to gradually fade away due to the lack of interest or funds. Acts of vandalism by tourists in the form of names or numbers inscribed on protected monuments can also be seen everywhere.

However, despite this indifference towards our history, the subject is invoked in political discussions so very often. Many a time the same students who pass over history in university for more commercial courses end up forming rigid dogmas about each country’s historical past, which end up shaping the political discourse in both countries.

Partition in Pakistan
In Pakistan, Partition remains one of those subjects which everyone has an opinion about but not many understand. I remember once listening to Ayesha Jalal, a prominent historian and an expert on Partition of British-India, at the Lahore Literary Festival, when one of the audience members rejected her thesis on Partition outright as it challenged the conventional understanding of the creation of Pakistan. Similar comments can be found on social media in response to Jalal’s articles or interviews. Often these comments are personalised attacks as opposed to being counter-arguments.

With these fixed yet imaginary notions of Partition colouring the perspective of people in Pakistan, the country’s Hindu past is also imagined. In order to somehow justify the event, the country’s Hindu history was slowly filtered and whatever survived was maintained to fit into a particular framework. Thus Muslim rulers, particularly those who destroyed temples or defeated Hindu kings, became glorified heroes and the precursors of the Pakistan movement. These heroes include Muhammad Bin Qasim, Mahmud Ghazni, Muhammad of Ghor, Babur, Aurangzeb, Nadir Shah and Ahmad Shah Abdali. A simplistic narrative of their history, stripped of the social, political, and cultural ethos of the time, is broadcast. It made perfect sense therefore for Pakistan to name its missiles after these heroes.

If some historical figures were celebrated for one reason, others were criticised, even demonised. For instance, Raja Dahir, believed to be the last Hindu ruler of Sindh, was defeated by the iconic Muhammad Bin Qasim. In Pakistan today, Dahir symbolises a tyrant and politicians occasionally invoke him to refer to their opponents.


A lens of antagonism
For students, bureaucrats, politicians, journalists, and others who grew up with this overarching framework of history, the Hindu heritage in their midst – in their cities, villages, towns and mohallas – came to be seen through a lens of perennial conflict and antagonism. In a country that was now their own, which they had fought for and forcefully extracted from a Hindu India, how could they continue to live in localities called Krishan Nagar or Ram Bagh? Thus Krishan Nagar in Lahore, a suburban residential locality founded in the 1930s, became Islampura after Partition, while Ram Bagh in Karachi, a historical ground that once used to host the Ramlila and other Hindu religious celebrations, became Aram Bagh. These are just two of the prominent examples of renaming out of a myriad others, reflecting the changing political circumstances in the country.

In this framework of history who was the hero and who the villain remained contested, what was not challenged were the generalisations and the assumptions of this structure. To Hindu nationalists in India, the heroes of the Muslim nationalist perspectives became villains for the same reason they were celebrated in Pakistan.

In India, for instance, Mahmud Ghazni, became the reviled Muslim king who destroyed the Hindu temple of Somnath in present-day Gujarat, while Babur is seen as the ruler who laid the foundation of the oppressive Mughal Empire over the ruins of a highly refined Hindu civilisation. Both of these perspectives have internalised the categorisation of history into forced classifications of Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim and Sikh periods, bequeathed to them by a colonial state whose very survival was contingent upon the creation and the formalisation of these distinctions.

In this context, the recent renaming of Allahabad to Prayagraj, by the Uttar Pradesh government led by Adityanath, comes as no surprise. It reflects the ideology of Hindu nationalists. To them, the name change reflects a correction of historical injustices that the Hindu population was subjected to by Muslim rulers. The re-naming of Delhi’s Aurangzeb Road in 2015 to APJ Abdul Kalam Road was part of the same thought process.


Not a new phenomenon
Many people see this as a new phenomenon unleashed by the Hindu nationalist government ruling India. But there have been traces of this right from the start. A few years after India gained independence, the Somnath temple was reconstructed by the efforts of the Congress leader Vallabhbhai Patel. Due to its central position in this antagonistic framework between the two nationalist groups, the temple acquired a particular significance. Its reconstruction soon after 1947 was therefore an important political statement, representing what was viewed as the “revival” of the Hindu civilisation that had been “oppressed” by the long rule of Muslims.

No other historical ruler is at the heart of this contested history as Mahmud Ghazni and Aurangzeb. Both of them hold special positions in these nationalist interpretations. While one side views them as devoted Muslims bent upon spreading the true message of Islam in a pagan India, the other imagines them to be reviled characters who brutally oppressed the majority of the population due to their fanaticism.

Both of these narratives are highly problematic as are the inherent assumptions of this problematic framework that are a legacy of colonial rule. For as long as this framework continues to exist, these historical battles will continue to be fought not in our classrooms but in the streets, lanes and cities of India and Pakistan – as they are named and renamed over and over again, while history classrooms remain empty and history books gather dust.

-Haroon Khalid
https://scroll.in/article/900557/fi...-are-heroes-in-pakistan-but-villains-in-india
 
. .
What hindu civilization was there before the Muslims arrived? Hindus were never united under one banner.

The only reason India hates Muslim rulers is because of the propaganda left by the British. It is sad to see people in India today apply their own standards to the times. But forget the oppression by Hindus for over 3000 years of Dalits and other non-baramin communities. Without the Mughals or Aurangzeb Indians would not have an Indian identity. Mughals were the only people who were able to unite the "hindus".
 
.
To be honest, neither are considered a hero or a villain in Pakistan. Although, when they killed and plundered they did it indiscriminately and what is now modern-day Pakistan suffered equally what modern-day India did. As the Afghan leaders said, the Mughal emperor does not have a heart in his chest for the Afghans/Pashtoons. For us Pakistanis, however, they mean little in our nationalism and politics. Here politicians won't get votes by beating drums for or against these guys. We don't go around using them as a rationale for our good and bad behaviour. The establishment tried to symbolize them by naming missiles after them but for the ordinary population, this matters little.

Indians largely fail to understand the above because of their predisposition beliefs and because they see Pakistan as ideologically mirror opposite., i.e. if Indians hate someone, Pakistan must love them and vice-versa.
 
.
The only reason India hates Muslim rulers is because of the propaganda left by the British. It is sad to see people in India today apply their own standards to the times. But forget the oppression by Hindus for over 3000 years of Dalits and other non-baramin communities. Without the Mughals or Aurangzeb Indians would not have an Indian identity. Mughals were the only people who were able to unite the "hindus".
Nope. Because there are independent evidence into the atrocities committed by Muslim rulers. For example, Aurangzeb publicly beheaded 9th Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur for refusing to convert to Islam and also helping Kashmiri Pandits from forceful conversion. Countless temples were destroyed by him, some still stand with reminiscence of such attacks.
Caste system was a social hierarchy there was no oppression for 3000 years, if there was oppression then Valmiki someone lower than a Dalit (a hunter gatherer) wouldn't write Hindu epics, caste system came oppressive later in the 6 - 18th centuries, and later Hinduism reformed itself from such social systems based on birth rights.
 
.
Nope. Because there are independent evidence into the atrocities committed by Muslim rulers. For example, Aurangzeb publicly beheaded 9th Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur for refusing to convert to Islam and also helping Kashmiri Pandits from forceful conversion. Countless temples were destroyed by him, some still stand with reminiscence of such attacks.
Caste system was a social hierarchy there was no oppression for 3000 years, if there was oppression then Valmiki someone lower than a Dalit (a hunter gatherer) wouldn't write Hindu epics, caste system came oppressive later in the 6 - 18th centuries, and later Hinduism reformed itself from such social systems based on birth rights.

Was Tegh bahadur just hanging out in the cotton field singing hymns or was he in open rebellion against the people ruling over him? There is evidence that 12 temples were destroyed by him and he also built many so what is your point? Hindus were never a united group. Mughals had many Hindus working with them and were part of the nobility. People did not fight on a religious basis back in those days. There were wars between ethnic groups not Hindu vs Muslim. If would have been a religious war then today there would have been no Hindus on the planet.

To say that a Dalit is a hunter-gather is a stretch even by Indian standards. Even today the Dalit is not an equal citizen to other Hindu classes.
 
.
Was Tegh bahadur just hanging out in the cotton field singing hymns or was he in open rebellion against the people ruling over him? There is evidence that 12 temples were destroyed by him and he also built many so what is your point? Hindus were never a united group. Mughals had many Hindus working with them and were part of the nobility. People did not fight on a religious basis back in those days. There were wars between ethnic groups not Hindu vs Muslim. If would have been a religious war then today there would have been no Hindus on the planet.

To say that a Dalit is a hunter-gather is a stretch even by Indian standards. Even today the Dalit is not an equal citizen to other Hindu classes.
Oh! His crime was protecting Pandits and other minorities from forceful conversion, he didn't start any rebellion, he was a preacher. He was arrested, then kept in prison, asked to perform miracles, else convert to Islam, he refused and was executed. So, he was indeed singing hymns. The priest of Saraswati peeth temple in Kashmir was killed, that guy was probably singing hymns too. Then Aurangzed demanded Jizya for non-Muslims, in todays world that's called coercion. Either convert or pay tax. You can't kill all of them, you need people to rule over.

You're right, Hindus never thought they were following any religion, those were their customs followed through centuries hence never had a reason to openly revolt against advent of organized religion like Islam. And if he constructed temples, it's simply because he viewed temples as a money making machine. Hoping people would give part of their wealth to temples. He plundered rich temples, constructed mosques over them, killed many religious figureheads, it's like if the leader converts, his followers also converts many did convert though.

Dalits are legally equal citizen to other Hindu classes. They get special reservations in government jobs. What are you on about?
 
.
When were they a hero ?
No one i have met hails them as heroes

Why complicated writing? In India because they looted and plundered our sacred places of worship.
In Pakistan, well you know why.

So did those who came before them.
And those who came before them.
The list goes on and on.
For its long history the greater south asian region has always been invaded by foreign power some to establish powers while other to loot..
They may categories muslims as invaders but they forget the fact that many that came before were also invaders. They became part of the greater south asian region..

Funny thing is that many high caste hindus tend to relate themselves to aryans who were invaders themselves.

Petty politics does not change the truth.... Or maybe it does in bharat..
 
.
Oh! His crime was protecting Pandits and other minorities from forceful conversion, he didn't start any rebellion, he was a preacher. He was arrested, then kept in prison, asked to perform miracles, else convert to Islam, he refused and was executed. So, he was indeed singing hymns. The priest of Saraswati peeth temple in Kashmir was killed, that guy was probably singing hymns too. Then Aurangzed demanded Jizya for non-Muslims, in todays world that's called coercion. Either convert or pay tax. You can't kill all of them, you need people to rule over.

You're right, Hindus never thought they were following any religion, those were their customs followed through centuries hence never had a reason to openly revolt against advent of organized religion like Islam. And if he constructed temples, it's simply because he viewed temples as a money making machine. Hoping people would give part of their wealth to temples. He plundered rich temples, constructed mosques over them, killed many religious figureheads, it's like if the leader converts, his followers also converts many did convert though.

Dalits are legally equal citizen to other Hindu classes. They get special reservations in government jobs. What are you on about?

Oh the Kashmiri pundits, can't protect themselves so they need the Sikhs to protect them. This romanticized version of history is so popular in India but it does not change the fact that they rebelled against the government. I am sure you know the punishment for treason. It is death.

Where were the Kashmiri pundits when you guys ran your tanks into the golden temple and killed all the Sikh preachers then?

Jizya is a tax like any other tax. Muslims pay too it is called zakat and the government collects zakat just like jizya. Both are obligatory under Muslim rule so I think you have a lack of understanding. Every society pays tax and India's Hindus are and were no different.

Hindus treat temples as money-making tools, not Muslims. There are countless videos attesting to that fact. For you to say he plundered rich temples is a misrepresentation. What did the Hindus do to temples in conquered lands? Were they left alone? Of course, they were not but you won't see Hindus lamenting those "plunderings". Look be realistic, that was the norm for the times and Aurgenzeb or any other Mughal or Muslim king did what was done by other kings.

Where did he construct a temple over a mosque? don't just stay things you have to prove them give facts.

That is my point why do you need the Dalits to get special reservations in government jobs? If they are not oppressed then let them compete with the rest of the Hindus. Again be realistic don't just say things to say them...
 
.
Oh the Kashmiri pundits, can't protect themselves so they need the Sikhs to protect them. This romanticized version of history is so popular in India but it does not change the fact that they rebelled against the government. I am sure you know the punishment for treason. It is death.
You sound like expert in Indian history. You can figure out why Kashmiri Pandits need protection. Can't you?
You're no different from the 'experts' I meet here, it's not romanticized version of history. Kashmiri Pandits were Brahmins, they are not some warrior clans who started a rebellion against a full blown state. They were mostly scholars, teachers and priests of temples, they held key positions in temples. They don't fight wars or start rebellions. In caste system which you couldn't figure out, prevented crossing of one's actions, warrior caste fight wars, a Brahmin believes he's pious he wouldn't spill blood because it's considered below them.

Where were the Kashmiri pundits when you guys ran your tanks into the golden temple and killed all the Sikh preachers then?
I thought we are talking about Aurangzeb. Couldn't keep up huh? Sikh militants took cover with machine guns, granades and held people hostage. In fact it was Sikhs themselves who lead the operation to end the siege.
Nobody was interested in a Sikh kingdom apparently, and the rest Khali stanis escaped for Canada or UK. US were not very fond of them at the time but things are changing for the better or worse.

Jizya is a tax like any other tax. Muslims pay too it is called zakat and the government collects zakat just like jizya. Both are obligatory under Muslim rule so I think you have a lack of understanding. Every society pays tax and India's Hindus are and were no different.
Except zakat was abolished by Aurangzeb. I have no lack of understanding. When the Marathas came to power, they took revenge on it by collecting Zakat and abolishing Jizya. Issue with Marathas is for another time.
Hindus treat temples as money-making tools, not Muslims. There are countless videos attesting to that fact. For you to say he plundered rich temples is a misrepresentation. What did the Hindus do to temples in conquered lands? Were they left alone? Of course, they were not but you won't see Hindus lamenting those "plunderings". Look be realistic, that was the norm for the times and Aurgenzeb or any other Mughal or Muslim king did what was done by other kings.
Yeah we can but we didn't. Ghazni plundered Somnath temple, more than once. It was plunder when you destroy a temple, take it's gold out, also most idols in temple were made of golds and diamonds, and other precious metals. So, it's in fact plundering for the loot. Aurangzeb had a particular interest in taking down famous temples. He famously tried to destroy the Ajanta ellora rock temple. But he couldn't do it with many tools. The rock structures still stand to tell the tale. I can go on and on.

Coming to the plunder, just to give an example, there is a temple in South India which was not touched by those invaders they recently opened lairs inside temple which had gold, diamonds, coins, precious jewels amassed that's worth around $22 billion, making it the largest treasure ever found in the world and richest temple. The hindus didn't cash in on them before as they believed it was donated wealth. So you get the idea what was in those other temples in the north which the invaders looted.

Almost forgot, do you know why Sikhs now are associated with warriors, the reason they formed Khalsa or warrior class is basically due to the prosecution under Aurangzeb. Guru Gobind Singh, whose father Aurangzeb famously executed is the Guru responsible for the appearance of modern day Sikhs, i.e uncut hair, beard, etc...

They may categories muslims as invaders but they forget the fact that many that came before were also invaders. They became part of the greater south asian region..

Funny thing is that many high caste hindus tend to relate themselves to aryans who were invaders themselves.

Petty politics does not change the truth.... Or maybe it does in bharat..
There is a tad bit of difference between the previous invaders, most of them were not religious nutjobs, colloquially speaking. Religion for them was, let's say a political tool which can be switched without getting killed.

Those who read Vedas would know Aryans is not a race. Simply means one who is noble. There was no concept of race among Indians, it's a western concept that categorized you on your skin color.
 
.
You sound like expert in Indian history. You can figure out why Kashmiri Pandits need protection. Can't you?
You're no different from the 'experts' I meet here, it's not romanticized version of history. Kashmiri Pandits were Brahmins, they are not some warrior clans who started a rebellion against a full blown state. They were mostly scholars, teachers and priests of temples, they held key positions in temples. They don't fight wars or start rebellions. In caste system which you couldn't figure out, prevented crossing of one's actions, warrior caste fight wars, a Brahmin believes he's pious he wouldn't spill blood because it's considered below them.

Again, You are romanticizing history. To portray Aurangzeb as a bloodthirsty mindless ruler is just being disingenuous. The fact is that the Sikhs rebelled against their rulers and the rulers put them down.

For you to bring in the Kashmiri pundits proves what exactly? It doesn't change the fact that the Sikh gurus fought the government.


I thought we are talking about Aurangzeb. Couldn't keep up huh? Sikh militants took cover with machine guns, granades and held people hostage. In fact it was Sikhs themselves who lead the operation to end the siege.
Nobody was interested in a Sikh kingdom apparently, and the rest Khali stanis escaped for Canada or UK. US were not very fond of them at the time but things are changing for the better or worse.

I am keeping up you are too stupid to understand. Just like the Indian government used tanks to subdue a threat so did the Mughals at the time. I am sure the Sikhs in Canada and the UK still think that the Singh Bhindranwale was a saint. It is the exact same scenario but it is ok because you are a Hindu and you are pro Indian.

The Sikhs also fought the army that was sent by Aurangzeb. It is obvious that they didn't have machine guns but that doesn't make them any better. They fought with the government of the time and lost.

Except zakat was abolished by Aurangzeb. I have no lack of understanding. When the Marathas came to power, they took revenge on it by collecting Zakat and abolishing Jizya. Issue with Marathas is for another time.

How can you abolish zakat? This is what I mean you have no understanding of taxation in Sharia. You can never abolish Zakat. No person on earth can.

Yeah we can but we didn't. Ghazni plundered Somnath temple, more than once. It was plunder when you destroy a temple, take it's gold out, also most idols in temple were made of golds and diamonds, and other precious metals. So, it's in fact plundering for the loot. Aurangzeb had a particular interest in taking down famous temples. He famously tried to destroy the Ajanta ellora rock temple. But he couldn't do it with many tools. The rock structures still stand to tell the tale. I can go on and on.

Coming to the plunder, just to give an example, there is a temple in South India which was not touched by those invaders they recently opened lairs inside temple which had gold, diamonds, coins, precious jewels amassed that's worth around $22 billion, making it the largest treasure ever found in the world and richest temple. The hindus didn't cash in on them before as they believed it was donated wealth. So you get the idea what was in those other temples in the north which the invaders looted.

Ghazni and countless other Hindu kings used to loot temples because of their stored wealth. For you to say that it was wrong for Muslims to do and not the Hindus is a double standard. This is what I mean by the romanticized version of history. You cannot say that when Hindus loot and it is ok and when Muslims loot it is wrong. They are both wrong.

Almost forgot, do you know why Sikhs now are associated with warriors, the reason they formed Khalsa or warrior class is basically due to the prosecution under Aurangzeb. Guru Gobind Singh, whose father Aurangzeb famously executed is the Guru responsible for the appearance of modern day Sikhs, i.e uncut hair, beard, etc...

That is good we all have a start somewhere. What matters is where people end.
The Sikhs romanticized the rebellions and used it to form their religion. Then they started to loot and plunder Punjab until the British took their kings and converted them to Christianity. Either way, it is good that they ended up with India. In another 100 years when Khalistan is formed, they will create new saints and say that the Hindus did us wrong.
 
.
Again, You are romanticizing history. To portray Aurangzeb as a bloodthirsty mindless ruler is just being disingenuous. The fact is that the Sikhs rebelled against their rulers and the rulers put them down.

For you to bring in the Kashmiri pundits proves what exactly? It doesn't change the fact that the Sikh gurus fought the government.
You can white wash Aurangzeb as much as you want, but he was a religious nutjob at heart. Sikhs rebelled only after Guru Tegh Bahadur was beheaded for refusing to convert to Islam. The next guru declared Mugals as their enemies and took an oath. Repeating illogical comments is not going to do any good, read something will you?
I am keeping up you are too stupid to understand. Just like the Indian government used tanks to subdue a threat so did the Mughals at the time. I am sure the Sikhs in Canada and the UK still think that the Singh Bhindranwale was a saint. It is the exact same scenario but it is ok because you are a Hindu and you are pro Indian.

The Sikhs also fought the army that was sent by Aurangzeb. It is obvious that they didn't have machine guns but that doesn't make them any better. They fought with the government of the time and lost.
Nah you're just diverting because it's hard to justify a religious bigot considering there is ample evidence, records to prove my claim and your claims are just feelz. Sikhs have no saints, there are only 10 Sikh Gurus (teachers) not 11. 90% of the Sikhs live in India without any issues. Guess the scale would shift in India's direction any day with or without canadian Sikhs.

Sikhs only fought after their religious figure was executed by Aurangazeb, and he didn't put any revolt that lead to his incarceration and subsequent execution. Sikhs were like Buddhists, preached peace until they pushed the violence out of them. Nothing surprising there even Buddhists are going bonkers.
How can you abolish zakat? This is what I mean you have no understanding of taxation in Sharia. You can never abolish Zakat. No person on earth can.
Hey genius, I know what Zakat is, I don't have to have deep understanding of Sharia to read historic records. Use your sources, which you rarely do, rather than making blanket statements like no man can do it. Well, he did it. Congrats.
Ghazni and countless other Hindu kings used to loot temples because of their stored wealth. For you to say that it was wrong for Muslims to do and not the Hindus is a double standard. This is what I mean by the romanticized version of history. You cannot say that when Hindus loot and it is ok and when Muslims loot it is wrong. They are both wrong.
That's convenient, bigots whose sole aim was destroying idols as their religious purpose to Hindu kings, who considered those idols brought wealth and power to their kingdoms.

That is good we all have a start somewhere. What matters is where people end.
The Sikhs romanticized the rebellions and used it to form their religion. Then they started to loot and plunder Punjab until the British took their kings and converted them to Christianity. Either way, it is good that they ended up with India. In another 100 years when Khalistan is formed, they will create new saints and say that the Hindus did us wrong.
Yeah, proves my point. Aurangzeb was a religious nutjob and executed countless peaceful people for simply refusing to convert to Islam. Such barbarisms maybe okay for you, it's not easily forgotten in here at least. And white washed it as rebellion and the king doing what's necessary.

Keep wishing for it, it's more likely you go through another 1971 again.
 
.
What is thr problrm with indian people and magazines ???
We love them because they were Muslims. We love Tariq who was a north Afriacan, We love Slahuddin who was a kurd. We love all the people who spread Islam.
 
. . .

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom