Why are we poor?- Is it our Defence

[lowe1941]

First, i know it was said by Hoodbhoy.

Second, but you quoted it!

Third, i m sure he probably said this in a context that was not particular to Pakistan!!

Forth, it would have been better if the background of this quote would also have been mentioned as it would have given a clearer preceptive.

Will science never return to the Islamic world? Shall the world always be split between those who have science and those who do not, with all the attendant consequences?" Hoodboy Hes talking about pakistan,,,,,as well as the rest of the Islamic world,,,,and Sharia Law is Islamic Religious Law,,,if you not setting on a ocean of oil if you follow Sharia Law your going to be poor and backward, show me any one that follows Religious Law that is not.....

 

[Xeric]

Will science never return to the Islamic world? Shall the world always be split between those who have science and those who do not, with all the attendant consequences?" Hoodboy Hes talking about pakistan,,,,,as well as the rest of the Islamic world,,,,and Sharia Law is Islamic Religious Law,,,if you not setting on a ocean of oil if you follow Sharia Law your going to be poor and backward, show me any one that follows Religious Law that is not.....

If and only if you start thinking clearly, positively and unequivocal, i am sure you will have a different understanding of the issue!

But as you are going more by than your intuitions instead of logic so will not understand it.

If someone who is following Islam in true letter and spirit happens to be poor or illiterate doesn't mean that his religion is to be blamed!!

As a stroke to your common sense just see other Muslims countries who have sharia law much proper then us. Oh yes now you are going to say "if you not setting on a ocean of oil if you follow Sharia Law your going to be poor and backward"...well then why the countries who are neither sitting on oil and nor do they follow sharia are equally poor??

So you want to suggest that in order to be rich while you are following the sharia, it is must that you should be dipped in crude oil!!!!

 

[lowe1941]

If and only if you start thinking clearly, positively and unequivocal, i am sure you will have a different understanding of the issue!

But as you are going more by than your intuitions instead of logic so will not understand it.

If someone who is following Islam in true letter and spirit happens to be poor or illiterate doesn't mean that his religion is to be blamed!!

As a stroke to your common sense just see other Muslims countries who have sharia law much proper then us. Oh yes now you are going to say "if you not setting on a ocean of oil if you follow Sharia Law your going to be poor and backward"...well then why the countries who are neither sitting on oil and nor do they follow sharia are equally poor??

So you want to suggest that in order to be rich while you are following the sharia, it is must that you should be dipped in crude oil!!!!

I am not basing my opinons are intutions,, I am baseing it on research by people like Hoodboy,,hes not the only one by far,,,,I am baseing my opinons on reality and facts, not what I want to belive....read this artical. Being poor translates into poor schools,,,poor health care,, poor roads,,and a lot of misery, being poor is not being noble, its just being poor...

Study Warns of Stagnation in Arab Societies

By BARBARA CROSSETTE
The New York Times

A blunt new report by Arab intellectuals commissioned by the United Nations warns that Arab societies are being crippled by a lack of political freedom, the repression of women and an isolation from the world of ideas that stifles creativity.

The survey, the Arab Human Development Report 2002, will be released today in Cairo.

The report notes that while oil income has transformed the landscapes of some Arab countries, the region remains "richer than it is developed." Per capita income growth has shrunk in the last 20 years to a level just above that of sub-Saharan Africa. Productivity is declining. Research and development are weak or nonexistent. Science and technology are dormant.

Intellectuals flee a stultifying -- if not repressive -- political and social environment, it says.

Arab women, the report found, are almost universally denied advancement. Half of them still cannot read or write. The maternal mortality rate is double that of Latin America and four times that of East Asia.
"Sadly, the Arab world is largely depriving itself of the creativity and productivity of half its citizens," the report concluded.

An advisory team of well-known Arabs in international public life was assembled to oversee the study. They included Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi who is executive director of the United Nations Population Fund; Mervat Tallawy, an Egyptian diplomat who heads the Economic and Social Council for West Asia; and Clovis Maksoud, who directs the Center for the Global South at American University in Washington and was formerly the Arab League's representative at the United Nations.

A team of nearly 30 authorities in various fields, including sociologists, economists and experts on Arab culture presented papers. A core group drawn from these authors and representing a wide variety of Middle Eastern and Arab majority African nations then completed the report.

Nader Fergany, a labor economist and director of the Almishkat Center for Research in Egypt, was chosen as the lead author. The report was published in Arabic, English and French, with an editorial team in each language. Women were represented at all stages of the formulation and writing of the report.

Planning for the report "started over a year ago, when we thought that there was a serious development problem in the Arab countries," Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, director of the United Nations Development Program's Arab regional bureau and the driving force behind the survey, said in an interview in her New York office. "There were some very scary signals that were specific to Arab countries and not other regions."

Then came the attacks on the United States, giving the report unexpected new relevance as explanations for Arab anger against the West are being sought.

The report, the first United Nations human development report devoted to a single region, was prepared by Arab intellectuals from a variety of disciplines, who do not fault others for what they see as the "deficits" in contemporary Arab culture, Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi said.

Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi, 49, a former deputy prime minister of Jordan who led its economic policy team, said that she had asked the authors, "to come and look at this problem and decide: Why is Arab culture, why are Arab countries lagging behind?" "It's not outsiders looking at Arab countries," she said. "It's Arabs deciding for themselves."

There are 280 million people in the 22 Arab countries covered by the report, which was co-sponsored by the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, a development finance institution set up by members of the Arab League. The number of Arabs is expected to grow to between 410 million and 459 million by 2020.

For the Palestinians in particular, the report says, human development is all but impossible under Israeli occupation. Moreover, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict "has been a cause and a pretext for delaying democratic change," contended Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi, who was born in Kuwait to Palestinian parents. She studied at the American University of Beirut and Portland State University in Oregon, where she received a doctorate in systems science.

The report does not directly criticize Islamic militancy and its effects on intellectual and economic growth, although Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi said this was implicit in passages that refer to a less tolerant social environment.

Despite growing populations, the standard of living in Arab countries on the whole has advanced considerably. Life expectancy is longer than the world average of 67 years, the report noted. The level of abject poverty is the world's lowest. Education spending is higher than elsewhere in the developing world.

But the use of the Internet is low. Filmmaking appears to be declining. The authors also describe a "severe shortage" of new writing and a dearth of translations of works from outside. "The whole Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one-fifth the number that Greece translates," the report said. In the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Mamoun, it concludes, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in just one year.

Laila Abou-Saif, an Egyptian writer and theater director whose theater in Cairo was closed in 1979 after she produced a play that satirized polygamy, said in an interview that the Islamic factor must be acknowledged in explaining the condition of the Arab world, which was a center of arts and sciences.

Ms. Abou-Saif, a Coptic Christian who now lives in the United States, said that creativity among Arabs now often hewed to religious themes.

Books are not being translated, in part because of Islamic pressures, said Ms. Abou-Saif, the author of "Middle East Journal: A Woman's Journey Into the Heart of the Arab World" (Scribner, 1990). "A whole gamut of religious literature are best sellers," she said.

Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins University and the author, most recently, of "The Dream Palace of the Arabs: A Generation's Odyssey" (Vintage Books, 1999) said in an interview that there is a pervasive sense that life in the Arab world is repressed by both the state and religious vigilantes.

"Arabs today feel monitored," he said, attributing a decrease in intellectual freedom to the growing power of a lower middle class whose members are literate but not broadly educated.

This group shows "its lack of hospitality to anyone of free spirit, anyone who is a dissident, anyone who is different," he said.

Mr. Ajami said that for many Arab intellectuals the only option has been exile. "There is a deep, deep nostalgia today in the Arab world," he said. "Societies looking ahead and feeling a positive movement never succumb to nostalgia."

Above all, there is no movement in politics, he said. Rulers, even elected, stay in power for life and create dynasties. "People just don't know how to overthrow, how to reform, how to change them."
http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/arab-stagnation.html:hitwall:

 

[Luftwaffe]

To Make Pakistan's economy better we have to focus of gawadar and stability of Baluchistan and thar coal believe me all the govts that came were ruled by goras and they didn't wanted these 2 areas to be developed for the reason these areas can bring $$$ with in few years and goaras never wanted Pakistan debt free nation...Again Gawadar and Thar Coal is the only way Pakistan can get a booming economy when economy is good defense will get better.

 

[Luftwaffe]

lowe said>>What if Islam is the reason we are so poor. What if Islam is the reason we lose 10, 15 % or more of the productivty and creativity of out women.. What if Islam is the reason the effctiveness of education and business is decreased...can we deal with it..:

mr. lowe Islam is not the reason for poverty u can see around how most of the Arab Nations Islam gave you Quran and hadith follow.. Islam gave you principals of business what are you waiting for apply them...Islam says Women and Men are equal and orders both to work but if woman can't than man is to ensure her well bring for food clothing but women in Islam are absolutely not stopped from working..In Islam it orders you to get knowledge go read hadiths and Quran you might get some insider education to your own mind thanks i hope you do some research before asking Questions in here. Islamic laws and regulations within business were if applied we wouldn't have been sitting like that..time for you to enroll in Islamic classes..

 

[lowe1941]

lowe said>>What if Islam is the reason we are so poor. What if Islam is the reason we lose 10, 15 % or more of the productivty and creativity of out women.. What if Islam is the reason the effctiveness of education and business is decreased...can we deal with it..:

mr. lowe Islam is not the reason for poverty u can see around how most of the Arab Nations Islam gave you Quran and hadith follow.. Islam gave you principals of business what are you waiting for apply them...Islam says Women and Men are equal and orders both to work but if woman can't than man is to ensure her well bring for food clothing but women in Islam are absolutely not stopped from working..In Islam it orders you to get knowledge go read hadiths and Quran you might get some insider education to your own mind thanks i hope you do some research before asking Questions in here. Islamic laws and regulations within business were if applied we wouldn't have been sitting like that..time for you to enroll in Islamic classes..

Perhaps better advice would be for you to enroll in the real world,,,

Status of Muslim Societies around the World
Dr. M. I. H. Farooqi, Gen. Secretary, Urdu Scientific Society,
(Retd. Scientist (Deputy Director), National Botanical Research Institute, Lucknow)

There was a time when Islamic Civilization was considered to be the most advanced, tolerant and progressive Civilization in the world. This was mainly because of their accomplishments in practically all the disciplines of knowledge. After 16th century AD, the situation changed drastically. Learning and inquiry was no more the motto of the Muslims with the result that today they occupy the lowest position in the ladder of the world. They are educationally backward, scientifically marginal, politically insignificant and economically poor. This is the present status of the entire Ummah amongst the comity of nations.

Status of Muslim Societies aroun

and dont try to tell me about the equality of women in pakistan when
ISLAMABAD, Aug 29: Balochistan Senator Sardar Israrullah Zehri stunned the upper house on Friday when he defended the recent incident of burying alive three teenage girls and two women in his province, saying it was part of “our tribal custom.”

Senator Bibi Yasmin Shah of the PML-Q raised the issue citing a newspaper report that the girls, three of them aged between 16 and 18 years, had been buried alive a month ago for wishing to marry of their own will.

Even in the USA we pakistanis some times use the expression,, dont piss on my leg and try to tell me its raining.

 

[AliFarooq]

I think pakistan is not as poor as it seems....

 

[Xeric]

I am not basing my opinons are intutions,, I am baseing it on research by people like Hoodboy,,hes not the only one by far,,,,I am baseing my opinons on reality and facts, not what I want to belive....read this artical. Being poor translates into poor schools,,,poor health care,, poor roads,,and a lot of misery, being poor is not being noble, its just being poor...

Study Warns of Stagnation in Arab Societies

By BARBARA CROSSETTE
The New York Times

A blunt new report by Arab intellectuals commissioned by the United Nations warns that Arab societies are being crippled by a lack of political freedom, the repression of women and an isolation from the world of ideas that stifles creativity.

The survey, the Arab Human Development Report 2002, will be released today in Cairo.

The report notes that while oil income has transformed the landscapes of some Arab countries, the region remains "richer than it is developed." Per capita income growth has shrunk in the last 20 years to a level just above that of sub-Saharan Africa. Productivity is declining. Research and development are weak or nonexistent. Science and technology are dormant.

Intellectuals flee a stultifying -- if not repressive -- political and social environment, it says.

Arab women, the report found, are almost universally denied advancement. Half of them still cannot read or write. The maternal mortality rate is double that of Latin America and four times that of East Asia.
"Sadly, the Arab world is largely depriving itself of the creativity and productivity of half its citizens," the report concluded.

An advisory team of well-known Arabs in international public life was assembled to oversee the study. They included Thoraya Obaid, a Saudi who is executive director of the United Nations Population Fund; Mervat Tallawy, an Egyptian diplomat who heads the Economic and Social Council for West Asia; and Clovis Maksoud, who directs the Center for the Global South at American University in Washington and was formerly the Arab League's representative at the United Nations.

A team of nearly 30 authorities in various fields, including sociologists, economists and experts on Arab culture presented papers. A core group drawn from these authors and representing a wide variety of Middle Eastern and Arab majority African nations then completed the report.

Nader Fergany, a labor economist and director of the Almishkat Center for Research in Egypt, was chosen as the lead author. The report was published in Arabic, English and French, with an editorial team in each language. Women were represented at all stages of the formulation and writing of the report.

Planning for the report "started over a year ago, when we thought that there was a serious development problem in the Arab countries," Rima Khalaf Hunaidi, director of the United Nations Development Program's Arab regional bureau and the driving force behind the survey, said in an interview in her New York office. "There were some very scary signals that were specific to Arab countries and not other regions."

Then came the attacks on the United States, giving the report unexpected new relevance as explanations for Arab anger against the West are being sought.

The report, the first United Nations human development report devoted to a single region, was prepared by Arab intellectuals from a variety of disciplines, who do not fault others for what they see as the "deficits" in contemporary Arab culture, Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi said.

Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi, 49, a former deputy prime minister of Jordan who led its economic policy team, said that she had asked the authors, "to come and look at this problem and decide: Why is Arab culture, why are Arab countries lagging behind?" "It's not outsiders looking at Arab countries," she said. "It's Arabs deciding for themselves."

There are 280 million people in the 22 Arab countries covered by the report, which was co-sponsored by the Arab Fund for Economic and Social Development, a development finance institution set up by members of the Arab League. The number of Arabs is expected to grow to between 410 million and 459 million by 2020.

For the Palestinians in particular, the report says, human development is all but impossible under Israeli occupation. Moreover, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict "has been a cause and a pretext for delaying democratic change," contended Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi, who was born in Kuwait to Palestinian parents. She studied at the American University of Beirut and Portland State University in Oregon, where she received a doctorate in systems science.

The report does not directly criticize Islamic militancy and its effects on intellectual and economic growth, although Ms. Khalaf Hunaidi said this was implicit in passages that refer to a less tolerant social environment.

Despite growing populations, the standard of living in Arab countries on the whole has advanced considerably. Life expectancy is longer than the world average of 67 years, the report noted. The level of abject poverty is the world's lowest. Education spending is higher than elsewhere in the developing world.

But the use of the Internet is low. Filmmaking appears to be declining. The authors also describe a "severe shortage" of new writing and a dearth of translations of works from outside. "The whole Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one-fifth the number that Greece translates," the report said. In the 1,000 years since the reign of the Caliph Mamoun, it concludes, the Arabs have translated as many books as Spain translates in just one year.

Laila Abou-Saif, an Egyptian writer and theater director whose theater in Cairo was closed in 1979 after she produced a play that satirized polygamy, said in an interview that the Islamic factor must be acknowledged in explaining the condition of the Arab world, which was a center of arts and sciences.

Ms. Abou-Saif, a Coptic Christian who now lives in the United States, said that creativity among Arabs now often hewed to religious themes.

Books are not being translated, in part because of Islamic pressures, said Ms. Abou-Saif, the author of "Middle East Journal: A Woman's Journey Into the Heart of the Arab World" (Scribner, 1990). "A whole gamut of religious literature are best sellers," she said.

Fouad Ajami, director of Middle East Studies at Johns Hopkins University and the author, most recently, of "The Dream Palace of the Arabs: A Generation's Odyssey" (Vintage Books, 1999) said in an interview that there is a pervasive sense that life in the Arab world is repressed by both the state and religious vigilantes.

"Arabs today feel monitored," he said, attributing a decrease in intellectual freedom to the growing power of a lower middle class whose members are literate but not broadly educated.

This group shows "its lack of hospitality to anyone of free spirit, anyone who is a dissident, anyone who is different," he said.

Mr. Ajami said that for many Arab intellectuals the only option has been exile. "There is a deep, deep nostalgia today in the Arab world," he said. "Societies looking ahead and feeling a positive movement never succumb to nostalgia."

Above all, there is no movement in politics, he said. Rulers, even elected, stay in power for life and create dynasties. "People just don't know how to overthrow, how to reform, how to change them."
http://www.wright-house.com/religions/islam/arab-stagnation.html:hitwall:

Well i must say that you and Mr Hoodbouy still needs to have your brains refreshed.
It is very easy to make a thing "untrue" or vice versa.

Quoting 'facts' and figures can mould the things in different directions but it doesn't mean that the truth can be altered to!!!

If you and your Hood thinks that Islam forbids women from working and competing with men-then you both are WRONG

If you and Mr Hoodi thinks that by following Islamic teaching you tend to lose credits-the you both are WRONG.

Just because a Muslim country is poor doesn't mean that Islam is the reason behind it. Oh yes may it is as Islam pinches many!!

If we go by your claim then every Muslim country should be lacking in every field and its people should be starving to death!! But that's not how it is. Dude, if you think Pakistan is poor because Pakistanis follow Islam, then you really need to understand Islam again.

We are not a "very prosperous" country because of our defence needs, the corruption in our system, the shamelessness that we as a nation have developed and the wish of getting rich overnight, but ISLAM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!

I'll advice you to stop believing what pleases you and try to dig further.

And please stop posting the same text over and again, i have had enough of this Mr Hoodi!!! This also includes the baseless propaganda that you posted in your last post!

 

[COBener]

We(muslim countries) will continue being poor,until we have to work with Qur'an and Hadis.

 

[lowe1941]

Well i must say that you and Mr Hoodbouy still needs to have your brains refreshed.
It is very easy to make a thing "untrue" or vice versa.

Quoting 'facts' and figures can mould the things in different directions but it doesn't mean that the truth can be altered to!!!

If you and your Hood thinks that Islam forbids women from working and competing with men-then you both are WRONG

If you and Mr Hoodi thinks that by following Islamic teaching you tend to lose credits-the you both are WRONG.

Just because a Muslim country is poor doesn't mean that Islam is the reason behind it. Oh yes may it is as Islam pinches many!!

If we go by your claim then every Muslim country should be lacking in every field and its people should be starving to death!! But that's not how it is. Dude, if you think Pakistan is poor because Pakistanis follow Islam, then you really need to understand Islam again.

We are not a "very prosperous" country because of our defence needs, the corruption in our system, the shamelessness that we as a nation have developed and the wish of getting rich overnight, but ISLAM HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!!

I'll advice you to stop believing what pleases you and try to dig further.

And please stop posting the same text over and again, i have had enough of this Mr Hoodi!!! This also includes the baseless propaganda that you posted in your last post!

We are not a prosperous country because of the way we practice Islam, look at what this muslims says about America.

America represents ‘true’ Islamic principles
"America may be the most Islamic country in the world. With our Bill of Rights and our national history, we have struggled to implement the central Islamic principle which commands pluralism in matters of gender, race, national origin and religion."
By Tammam Adi and Patricia Adi.

Afghanistan's Taliban government has outlawed work and education for women in the name of Islam. Is this based on Islamic scripture? Definitely not.

The prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was hired by a businesswoman named Khadija. She later proposed to him and they had a happy marriage which lasted until she died. And Muhammad said, "Seeking knowledge is a religious duty for every Muslim man and woman." The Prophet also said, "The best of you is the one who treats his wife best."

In fact, singing under the balcony of the beloved, kissing a lady's hand, kneeling before the fiancee and other European gallantries were inspired by the Islamic treatment of women in the Middle Ages.

The abuse of women in some Islamic countries is therefore clearly unIslamic. What the Taliban are doing with women is merely an authoritarian measure they claim is based on Islam. It has as little to do with Islam as a burning cross has to do with Jesus.

The Quran states that women have the same rights as they have duties. Men and women are addressed as equal in many verses. Spousal disputes are resolved by mediation and although the fathers are responsible for child support and alimony, the Quran prohibits using children to harrass divorced fathers or mothers.

Another example is the Shiite "Islamic revolutionaries" of Iran, who call America "the Great Satan." In many Muslim countries ruled by more or less undemocratic governments, there is propaganda against America as an enemy of Islam. Some American "experts" claim that Islam is hostile to the American way of life.

But the Islamic scripture, the Quran, proclaims just the opposite. "O humanity, I have created you all from one man and one woman and spread you out into races and nations so that you recognize each other as members of one family. The only difference between you is the one God will make in the hereafter, based on your faith and behavior."

In Islamic Spain, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived as brothers and sisters in one society. Spanish Muslims implemented another Quranic verse, "There should be no compulsion in religion" (freedom of religion). This period, from the 8th to the 15th centuries, is remembered as the Golden Age of religious tolerance.

What we hear today, instead of religious pluralism, is the polarization of some authoritarian governments, which use an "us versus them" mentality to rally unhappy people around an oppressive government.

Fundamentalist and radical "Islamic" organizations and governments are a result of authoritarian thinking that has nothing to do with the religion of Islam and its holy books.

The Quran says, "Do not spy on each other" (protection from illegal search). "Do not pressure clerks or witnesses" (no coerced testimony, no self-incrimination but also no subpoenas). The Islamic burden of proof must stand up to many rigorous tests before a guilty verdict is pronounced. For example, prosecutors must bring good eyewitnesses or they will be punished. Muslim judges have to encourage the accused to recant their confessions. These practices, which are aimed at protecting the innocent and giving the guilty maximum rights, fly in the face of what we hear about "Islamic justice," with military tribunals, summary executions, and so on.

Of course, authoritarian governments and the "Muslim" organizations they foster keep misquoting the Quran and using it out of context. And you can get away with misquoting and misusing any holy book if there is no free press and no public discussion.

Authoritarianism has been ruling Muslim populations for centuries. Colonialism followed during the last two centuries. The peoples' attempts to be free and democratic have been crushed over and over. Defeatism and despair are widespread. Poverty and fear are everywhere. Without help from powerful nations, it is very unlikely that people will be able to free themselves, as the example of Iraq and Afghanistan shows.

When a friend of ours was visiting his relatives in Indonesia, he asked a Muslim scholar about the "true Islam" as opposed to the many misrepresentations of Islam. The scholar answered, "If you want to know what true Islam is, go back to America and ask the people there. Americans are the ones who know best what true Islam is about."

America may be the most Islamic country in the world. With our Bill of Rights and our national history, we have struggled to implement the central Islamic principle which commands pluralism in matters of gender, race, national origin and religion. An American-born Islamic scholar believes that the visions of some of our founding fathers were inspired by Islamic history.

It is ironic that in 1492, the Spanish monarchy not only conquered the last Islamic-pluralistic city-state of Granada, but also sent Christopher Columbus to discover the New World, where a second great pluralistic society took root.

America represents ‘true’ Islamic principles - By Tammam Adi and Patricia Adi

by the way anything that is the truth is not propganda,, its just the truth, deal with it.

 

[muse]

Excellent discussion - thank you.

 

[Xeric]

We are not a prosperous country because of the way we practice Islam, look at what this muslims says about America.

America represents ‘true’ Islamic principles
"America may be the most Islamic country in the world. With our Bill of Rights and our national history, we have struggled to implement the central Islamic principle which commands pluralism in matters of gender, race, national origin and religion."
By Tammam Adi and Patricia Adi.

Afghanistan's Taliban government has outlawed work and education for women in the name of Islam. Is this based on Islamic scripture? Definitely not.

The prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was hired by a businesswoman named Khadija. She later proposed to him and they had a happy marriage which lasted until she died. And Muhammad said, "Seeking knowledge is a religious duty for every Muslim man and woman." The Prophet also said, "The best of you is the one who treats his wife best."

In fact, singing under the balcony of the beloved, kissing a lady's hand, kneeling before the fiancee and other European gallantries were inspired by the Islamic treatment of women in the Middle Ages.

The abuse of women in some Islamic countries is therefore clearly unIslamic. What the Taliban are doing with women is merely an authoritarian measure they claim is based on Islam. It has as little to do with Islam as a burning cross has to do with Jesus.

The Quran states that women have the same rights as they have duties. Men and women are addressed as equal in many verses. Spousal disputes are resolved by mediation and although the fathers are responsible for child support and alimony, the Quran prohibits using children to harrass divorced fathers or mothers.

Another example is the Shiite "Islamic revolutionaries" of Iran, who call America "the Great Satan." In many Muslim countries ruled by more or less undemocratic governments, there is propaganda against America as an enemy of Islam. Some American "experts" claim that Islam is hostile to the American way of life.

But the Islamic scripture, the Quran, proclaims just the opposite. "O humanity, I have created you all from one man and one woman and spread you out into races and nations so that you recognize each other as members of one family. The only difference between you is the one God will make in the hereafter, based on your faith and behavior."

In Islamic Spain, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived as brothers and sisters in one society. Spanish Muslims implemented another Quranic verse, "There should be no compulsion in religion" (freedom of religion). This period, from the 8th to the 15th centuries, is remembered as the Golden Age of religious tolerance.

What we hear today, instead of religious pluralism, is the polarization of some authoritarian governments, which use an "us versus them" mentality to rally unhappy people around an oppressive government.

Fundamentalist and radical "Islamic" organizations and governments are a result of authoritarian thinking that has nothing to do with the religion of Islam and its holy books.

The Quran says, "Do not spy on each other" (protection from illegal search). "Do not pressure clerks or witnesses" (no coerced testimony, no self-incrimination but also no subpoenas). The Islamic burden of proof must stand up to many rigorous tests before a guilty verdict is pronounced. For example, prosecutors must bring good eyewitnesses or they will be punished. Muslim judges have to encourage the accused to recant their confessions. These practices, which are aimed at protecting the innocent and giving the guilty maximum rights, fly in the face of what we hear about "Islamic justice," with military tribunals, summary executions, and so on.

Of course, authoritarian governments and the "Muslim" organizations they foster keep misquoting the Quran and using it out of context. And you can get away with misquoting and misusing any holy book if there is no free press and no public discussion.

Authoritarianism has been ruling Muslim populations for centuries. Colonialism followed during the last two centuries. The peoples' attempts to be free and democratic have been crushed over and over. Defeatism and despair are widespread. Poverty and fear are everywhere. Without help from powerful nations, it is very unlikely that people will be able to free themselves, as the example of Iraq and Afghanistan shows.

When a friend of ours was visiting his relatives in Indonesia, he asked a Muslim scholar about the "true Islam" as opposed to the many misrepresentations of Islam. The scholar answered, "If you want to know what true Islam is, go back to America and ask the people there. Americans are the ones who know best what true Islam is about."

America may be the most Islamic country in the world. With our Bill of Rights and our national history, we have struggled to implement the central Islamic principle which commands pluralism in matters of gender, race, national origin and religion. An American-born Islamic scholar believes that the visions of some of our founding fathers were inspired by Islamic history.

It is ironic that in 1492, the Spanish monarchy not only conquered the last Islamic-pluralistic city-state of Granada, but also sent Christopher Columbus to discover the New World, where a second great pluralistic society took root.

America represents ‘true’ Islamic principles - By Tammam Adi and Patricia Adi

by the way anything that is the truth is not propganda,, its just the truth, deal with it.

That's what i have trying to tell you.
It is not Islam that has to be blamed.

We already know and accept the fact that the West is actually following the true principles of Islam, despite being non-Muslims!!

The equality, freedom, respect, justice and honor that the West enjoys is the true face of Islam.

Moreover, it is already known that only if the West quit to things, namely Drinking and the Free Sex thing, they are BETTER Muslims then us!!

You pick up their every way if life and you will find the reflection of Islamic teachings.

May it be regarding the quick justice thing or may it relates to their President who has committed crime. Unlike ours, the poor gets bangs even if he hasn't done anything and the rich and power is free to do anything that pleases him. They don't let things to get influenced with someones authority of approach. This was only one example, but there are many more.

The West is better then us in the field of humanitys-something that Islam asks 'us' to do.

They are better when it come to equality, no black , no white-something again that Islam tells us to follow.

They are better then us when it comes to principle and promises, they do their work and do it properly, without looking up at the dividends which they would get at the end-again this is something Islam teaches us.

So dear it is Islam or for that matter the Islamic way of life that today all those nations are better then ALL the Muslims(who don't follow Islamic principles correctly).

They are better and we are poor because they have taken what we were supposed to do and in turn we have adopted their way of life. This is what that have ruined us, NOT ISLAM


No please don't eat you own words. The very first post that i replied you with said that we should FOLLOW ISLAM PROPERLY, to which you had replied that everything revolves around "IF"- if that happens of if that didn't happen.

Let me also quote the original post:


"Originally Posted by enigma947
If you really consider what you have said above, you really need to get some broader vision of life.
Ever heard that "Islam is the complete way of living!"
If Islam even tell us how to enter the bathroom how do you think that it will not guide us regarding our financial matters.
And where did you read that Islam forbids women from working?

It is the unholy Mullahs who have polluted us and our minds with the wrong understanding of correct things.

Only if all the Muslims in our country pay their zakat sincerely and that zakat is distributed correctly among the real needy people there wouldn't be none left whom we can call poor!
If i m not wrong it was also the Islamic era when during the Caliphat of Hazar Umer(if i m correct) that zakat givers never used to find anyone who was in need of money, as everybody was contended and happy enough, just because the wealth was equally distributed because people had a correct interpretation of Islam!

Moreover, only if we start paying our taxes properly our pathetic condition can change very soon, but the problem is that we don't want to do it.

We are in the habit of blaming others and our religion. It is us who interpret a phenomenon incorrectly and then also we try to justify a wrong thing which ultimately lead us to disaster!
Reply by lowe1941
I remember the same thing being said about communism, if you just did it right, it would be heaven on earth, I think every utopian idea in the world said the same,, just do it this way and life will be better if not perfect..."


Now you are yourself tell me that we should follow Islam properly. Guud, mate... no offence but you do understand and follow my instructions rather quickly.

 

[rishisankaran]

Hi guys this is my first post. However I feel the title should have been Why pakistan is so poor. I'm very sure about India, and the pace of development happening in India is on a rapid scale.

the below article talks about the cut in development budget.

"

Whereas the story is different on the other side of the border. I believe a part of it has to be blamed on the Pakistan govt which is filled with literate and corrupt. Its not that they are illetrate its just they are greedy. look at the below article from DAWN a leading pakistan newspaper. And its really a pity where this country is leading to. I agree corruption is in India as well, but constitutional acts such as RTI(right to information) is changing the entire social structure in India.

It is unfortunate that Pakistan’s ruling elite gets to keep its perks and privileges no matter how difficult economic conditions in the country may be. They are willing to beg from ‘friendly’ countries, borrow from international lenders and steal from the poor to get things going for themselves.

When the government embarked upon its macro-economic stabilisation programme and subsequently approached the IMF for balance-of-payments support to correct financial imbalances, it was obvious that some spending somewhere would have to be curtailed.

It was also a foregone conclusion that the cut would not affect the government’s administrative expenses i.e. its perks and privileges, and that the common people would be made to pay the price for the financial indiscretions and profligacy of the rulers. Few believed officials who tried to convince the public otherwise.

It did not take people very long to start feeling the heat of government policies. Fuel subsidies were eliminated — in fact, consumers are now paying far more than the international price of oil — and power subsidies slashed.

The government has now reduced its development spending by more than Rs100bn in the first seven months of this fiscal in the name of ‘rationalising’ the Public Sector Development Programme. The size of the latter is expected to be trimmed further during the rest of the financial year.

Another report appearing in a section of the press a few days back pointed out that the social sector — including health, education, water supply, etc — was a major victim of the reduction in development spending: allocation for it was cut by a hefty Rs79.50bn.

The twin measures — cuts in subsidy and reduction in development expenditure — were the easy way out of economic trouble for the government. They have helped fiscal deficit to come down to 1.9 per cent during the first half of the year.

The government hopes to contain it at less than 4.2 per cent by the end of the year. But the elimination of subsidies has raised the cost of living and forced many to cut essential spending on education and health.

The removal of 125 development projects from the PSDP and delays in the implementation of others mean thousands of new jobs will never materialise. But, at the same time, the government has failed to restrict its non-development expenditure which has grown by over 25 per cent year-on-year.

In spite of public statements, it has also dithered on promises to tax the rich who enjoy massive exemptions. To have done that would have also been a way out of the economic morass. But it was difficult to do because of the damage to elite interests. Public anger against the government’s policies is, therefore, not without reason. "

I'm not able to post the Link as Ill have complete 15 posts. However this is an article from DAWN.com dated 23 feb 2009

 

[niaz]

Are we talking about Muslim ummah or about Pakistan?

If we are talking about Muslim countries in general, it is safe to say that Muslims are not “poor”. Many Muslim countries such as UAE & Kuwait are among the richest countries in the world. Dr Pervaiz Hoodbhoy’s article describes very nicely as to why Muslims are lagging behind in science and technology but not why we are poor. If we are talking about Pakistan, yes no doubt we are poor.

Poor is generally described as some one having no money or resources and some one not having enough of or lacking something. Poverty would therefore mean lacking resources to provide your family with food, clothing, housing, health and education in other words basic necessities of life.

To get oneself out of poverty one would need means of creating wealth so that basic necessities of life can be provided for. Until the dawn of Industrial age, only ways of creating wealth were agriculture, horticulture and animal husbandry. Regions not blessed with good climate and fertile soil created wealth thru trade and commerce.

Areas such as Punjab and Sindh with naturally abundant water and fertile soil were rich and arid and semi arid lands such as Baluchistan and NWFP relatively poor. With the onset of industrial age, creation of wealth has shifted to industrial production as value added can be a lot more than thru agriculture. Some countries created a niche market by specializing on specific products. (Switzerland for watches and modern day Finland with Nokia phones). In my own lifetime I have seen the rise of Asian Tigers and more recently of India thru IT.

Sadly Pakistan has been left behind. It is not democracy because we have seen rise of Singapore, Taiwan and China which are not democracies. Nazi Germany progressed at astonishing rate under Hitler. It is not religion either; Malaysia is an Islamic country and India for all her secular claims is a deeply religious country and already a major world economy. Only way religion could affect poverty level is that most religions are against birth control and in an agrarian economy, unchecked increase in population would inevitably lead to disaster ala Malthusian forecast.

Onerous defense expenditure is no doubt partly responsible, but IMO the main reason is the lack of vision and quality of leadership. Looking from purely economic progress point of view; Pakistan was doing quite well until 1965. Both the 1965 and 19 71 wars were harmful to our economic progress. ZA Bhutto, despite having a brilliant mind was poison for Pakistan’s economic well being. Pakistan never recovered from the mass nationalization of the Bhutto era. While we were busy nationalizing, India was undergoing economic reform. Indian economy really took off after liberalization under V.P. Narismha Rao in early 1990’s.

It is matter of conjecture what would have happened if we had not been thru two wars and not suffered socialist regime of the PPP. But we would have certainly been better off than we are now; with family planning and planned economy, it is not unreasonable to assume that most Pakistanis would have had the benefit of basic necessities of life. Instead of providing Roti, Kapra aur Makaan, PPP gave us corruption and killed off private enterprise in the bargain.

Thus IMO why we (Pakistanis) are poor is because of poor leadership at the helm of affairs.

 

[jarnee]

But let me tell you , i am an Indian. I know if all settles well in Pakistan (meaning all the current mess etc) Pakistan has a benefit of being a smaller nation, Unlike india, Very well connected to Iran and West asia. If i were to advice Pakistan, i will set it up as free port
Karanchi and Gwadar. I will reach out(PSU or Private company) and explore Gas in western Indian ocean. Set up Large scale Tax free zones for textile and Cement manufacturing. targeting trade with India and China (Total 3 Billion ppl).
Peace will Promote tourism and employment to related people.
Develop IT, and ITES zones. Pak may have initial advantage of lower cost(1 INR = 1.6 PKR) as compared to India and China.

So the bottom line is peace and education.