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Why are we poor?- Is it our Defence

Well i do agree with you but i'll also like to complain that if you are worried abut with what the British left you with, how can you miss ouit with what Pakistan was left when it went independent?

With all the ordnance factories with india, cities like Calcutta, gurdaspur and junagrh went to india and the share in terms of money that Pakistan was supposed to receive (whih it never got to date)

i don't want to spark another argument here but just wanted to add that if inidan feels that they were left poor by the British, Pakistan had to suffer more!

That is not an excuse. Neither for India nor Pakistan. Its just that since 800 BC, this region has been conquered and ruled by foreigners. Maybe we just forgot how to rule ourselves! :D
 
Originally Posted by enigma947
Well i do agree with you but i'll also like to complain that if you are worried abut with what the British left you with, how can you miss ouit with what Pakistan was left when it went independent?

With all the ordnance factories with india, cities like Calcutta, gurdaspur and junagrh went to india and the share in terms of money that Pakistan was supposed to receive (whih it never got to date)

i don't want to spark another argument here but just wanted to add that if inidan feels that they were left poor by the British, Pakistan had to suffer more!

You were the ones so intent on getting a seperate state. Be happy with what you have. All of us would have been so much better off, if the partition had not taken place. All the bloodshed could have been avoided.
 
You were the ones so intent on getting a seperate state. Be happy with what you have. All of us would have been so much better off, if the partition had not taken place. All the bloodshed could have been avoided.


hahahaha indians still crying over partition that happened almost 62 years ago. Get over it man, Pakistan is here to stay and dont worry about Pakistan, you worry about the hundreds of millions of indians living on less than $1 a day.
I dont know why you indians are so intersted in Pakistan, seriously time to move on and leave us alone.
 
You were the ones so intent on getting a seperate state. Be happy with what you have. All of us would have been so much better off, if the partition had not taken place. All the bloodshed could have been avoided.

Please, you disgust me, don't even start about it.
 
Respected sir,
I do really agree with your point but do let me know that isn't defence the main parameter to be discussed with respect to economy I mean that if for instance we just declare Pakistan to bo non-nuclear zone (which we shouldn't) we will get inreturn a lot amount of foreign aid. Perhaps these agriculture & all these rough political decisions are linked with our foreign policy & USA never ever want to see Pakistan as a successful state i.e the big Boss is always out there to let you down whether you start Kalabagh dam or whatever> Tell me what we can do anyway!!

tell them we dont want their EDA surplus stocks. tell them we want to be self-reliant and then go out and do it. show the world. this country has a lot of potential, it just needs to get harnessed. educate our people and you will see a "sea of change". break the "shackles" of the fuedals!
 
You were the ones so intent on getting a seperate state. Be happy with what you have. All of us would have been so much better off, if the partition had not taken place. All the bloodshed could have been avoided.

Come one dude, did i say anywhere that we feel sorry over the partition??
Don't make up the things at your own(although you people are quite in a habit of it)

We wanted a separate homeland, we got it and it is going to stay!!

And for the bloodshed..wow ask your Sikh 'bradari about it. They will explain it better!
 
The land mass of the subcontinent was never "poor", infact it was always "rich", which is why it was attractive to invaders.

However; we are now poor, because we have opted to follow socialist economics - Awam and all that - if we once again allow for regulations in which the energies of ordinary people are free to achieve for themselves, prosperity will return to country.

Go to any part of the world, any corner, you will find Pakistanis, and you will find that they are doing well, they may not be wealthy, bu they are not poor -- why??? Because they are free to do business, even if it just a small shop.

In Pakistan we have opted by socialist economics - and while there is certainly room for public private partnerships, just look at the kinds of industres and concerns the state is involved in -- why???

Because it is a source of wealth and power for bureaucrats. This is really what bureaucrats should be involved with?? Airlines, Steel, Ship building, trade, you name it - instead of incentives for private business, all incentives foster corruption by putting bureaucrats in charge of industires that produce at costs higher than private business and who sell at prices under what the market bears -- this is the source of corruption.

Government legislation and regulation should aim at promoting and enabling Pakiistani business and individuals to gain access and to succeed in the pakistani and internagtional economy, instead, we see that state controlled industries and concerns are a source of political patronage, corruption, loss making, while bleeding the public treasury.
 
Why are we poor?
Dr Farrukh Saleem*

India plus Pakistan is 20 percent of humanity. India plus Pakistan is a mere 5 percent of world income. India plus Pakistan have 45 percent of world's illiterates. India plus Pakistan have 50 percent of all malnourished children. India just by itself has the world's largest number of poor
people in a single country. In absolute terms, at least 50 million Pakistanis and 350 million Indians live in extreme poverty (must earn during the day to eat dinner).
Some 60 years ago, Mahatma Gandhi, the Bapu of all Indians, had said, "Poverty is but the worst form of violence." Look at present-day Bombay. The city has ten million people and is the financial capital of India. Four million of the ten million live in rough-and-tumble fabrications of bamboo, plastic, wood and tin. At least a million live and sleep on footpaths. For the rest of India, poverty remains a Himalayan problem. Which one of the 14 prime ministers has done anything to
save Indians from the worst form of violence?
On 9 August 1947, Quaid-i-Azam, the father of our country, delivered a speech at the Karachi Club. The Quaid asserted that it is the "scared duty of the Sovereign State of Pakistan to solve the problem of poverty of the people." Which one of our 11 presidents or 19 prime ministers has paid any attention to the Quaid's pledge? Look at present-day Rojhan Jamali, the birthplace of our
Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali. Out of all of PM's constituents the lifetime goal of at least 90% is to own a Rs2,000 goat.
What really is poverty? According to the World Bank, "Poverty is hunger. Poverty is lack of shelter. Poverty is being sick and not being able to see a doctor. Poverty is not being able to go to school and not knowing how to read. Poverty is not having a job, is fear for the future, living one
day at a time. Poverty is losing a child to illness brought about by unclean water. Poverty is powerlessness, lack of representation and freedom." Both India and Pakistan have all these forms
of poverty. Why are we so poor?
Over the last 5 years, India has spent $4.2 billion and Pakistan $2.6 billion on the importation of major conventional weapons. For India that converts to $4 on a per capita basis and $19 for every Pakistani man, woman and child. India and Pakistan remained the poorest of all countries but India is now the 5th largest importer of major conventional weapons while Pakistan is the 12th largest.
Pakistan is poor because we have enriched China Metallurgical Equipment Corporation, Lockheed Martin (a billion dollars for F-16s, P-3 Orion, etc) and Raytheon (Stingers, sidewinders and TOW missiles). Over the past 5 years, we have deposited $1.024 billion into Chinese coffers, $650 million has gone to Ukraine, $400 million to France and $250 million each to the UK and the US.
India is poor because she has been enriching Rosoboronexport, Russia's arms exporting corporation. Most of India's defence kitty has gone to Russia; $3 billion over the past 5 years alone. The Netherlands took in $350 million and Germany another $210 million.

We shall continue to be poor. Under the long-term Indo-Russian military technical cooperation programme there are some 350 new defence deals in the pipeline-including the production of Lada class diesel submarines, Gorshkov aircraft carrier, TU-22M long-range bombers, Akula-II class nuclear submarines and AWACS. Total tab: $4 billion. Then there is the BAE Systems Hawk jet deal with the UK. These 60 Hawks have a price tag of a billion pound sterling which is the equivalent of nearly ten years of India-UK bilateral trade. India's neighbour has billion dollar Agostas so India must also buy Scorpene 'killer submarines'. France wins both in India and in Pakistan.
More recently, Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) signed a two billion dollar weapons contract with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). The contract covers $280 million for surface-to-surface naval Barak missiles, $300 million for pilot-less planes, $250 million for Green Pine radar systems, Phalcon early-warning aircraft and towed howitzer for the Indian army. The US, in the meanwhile, has established a tourist-cum-investor 'no fly zone' over Pakistan while our armament wish list remains heavier than our GDP. Short range ballistic missiles, intermediate range ballistic missiles, F-16 fighters, surveillance aircraft, Harpoon missiles, long-range weapon-locating radars, rocket fuel, anti-tank missiles and combat helicopters. Additional
Main Battle Tanks (MBT) are going to cost $1.5 billion. The PAF wants a multi-billion dollar package covering Mirage 2000-5s and then there's F7-P4 aircraft from China and gunship helicopters. Spare parts from the US are also high
on our wish list.

Just who is profiting from the sale of all these machines of death and destruction? The top ten exporters of conventional weapons are USA, Russia, France, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Ukraine, Italy, China and Belarus. The top corporate merchants of death are Lockheed Martin (USA), Boeing (USA), BAE Systems (UK), Raytheon (USA), Northrop Grumman (USA), General Dynamics (USA) and Thomson-CSF (France).
When the poverty-ridden East fills West's craving for drugs there is talk of 'supply control'. The West remains the chief pretender of virtue but is the largest seller of arms to the East. The US, for instance, accounts for a full 50% of the world trade in arms.
Conflict and poverty are the closest of relatives. Look at Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Haiti, Mozambique, Mali, India or Angola. They are all in conflict-either within or with their neighbours-and they are all poor. Peace is an essential prerequisite to prosperity. Without peace there can't be any poverty alleviation.
India's economy is 800% the size of ours. On a per capita basis, we have a record of spending 500% more on arms imports than does India. Which country is likely to run out of resources first?
Just who is most likely to win without firing a shot? There certainly are no prizes for getting these
riddles right.


* originally posted at Jang Group Online Editions

Was this written somewhere between 1994 and 1999..because the references look very old..the barak deal..the scorpine sub-marines deal...etc.. can u plz..specify the link...

Right until 2001-2002..Pakistan's GDP was higher than that of India..both countries clocked at the bottom of the list along with poor african countries..things changed from 2003.. India started ascending the growth ladder..and went on to become among the top 10 economic powers of the world with some of the highest GDP's....

This article is atlest 10 years old if not more...dosent hold good for India in present circumstances..
 
Why are we poor?
Dr Farrukh Saleem*

India plus Pakistan is 20 percent of humanity. India plus Pakistan is a mere 5 percent of world income. India plus Pakistan have 45 percent of world's illiterates. India plus Pakistan have 50 percent of all malnourished children. India just by itself has the world's largest number of poor
people in a single country. In absolute terms, at least 50 million Pakistanis and 350 million Indians live in extreme poverty (must earn during the day to eat dinner).
Some 60 years ago, Mahatma Gandhi, the Bapu of all Indians, had said, "Poverty is but the worst form of violence." Look at present-day Bombay. The city has ten million people and is the financial capital of India. Four million of the ten million live in rough-and-tumble fabrications of bamboo, plastic, wood and tin. At least a million live and sleep on footpaths. For the rest of India, poverty remains a Himalayan problem. Which one of the 14 prime ministers has done anything to
save Indians from the worst form of violence?
On 9 August 1947, Quaid-i-Azam, the father of our country, delivered a speech at the Karachi Club. The Quaid asserted that it is the "scared duty of the Sovereign State of Pakistan to solve the problem of poverty of the people." Which one of our 11 presidents or 19 prime ministers has paid any attention to the Quaid's pledge? Look at present-day Rojhan Jamali, the birthplace of our
Prime Minister Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali. Out of all of PM's constituents the lifetime goal of at least 90% is to own a Rs2,000 goat.
What really is poverty? According to the World Bank, "Poverty is hunger. Poverty is lack of shelter. Poverty is being sick and not being able to see a doctor. Poverty is not being able to go to school and not knowing how to read. Poverty is not having a job, is fear for the future, living one
day at a time. Poverty is losing a child to illness brought about by unclean water. Poverty is powerlessness, lack of representation and freedom." Both India and Pakistan have all these forms
of poverty. Why are we so poor?
Over the last 5 years, India has spent $4.2 billion and Pakistan $2.6 billion on the importation of major conventional weapons. For India that converts to $4 on a per capita basis and $19 for every Pakistani man, woman and child. India and Pakistan remained the poorest of all countries but India is now the 5th largest importer of major conventional weapons while Pakistan is the 12th largest.
Pakistan is poor because we have enriched China Metallurgical Equipment Corporation, Lockheed Martin (a billion dollars for F-16s, P-3 Orion, etc) and Raytheon (Stingers, sidewinders and TOW missiles). Over the past 5 years, we have deposited $1.024 billion into Chinese coffers, $650 million has gone to Ukraine, $400 million to France and $250 million each to the UK and the US.
India is poor because she has been enriching Rosoboronexport, Russia's arms exporting corporation. Most of India's defence kitty has gone to Russia; $3 billion over the past 5 years alone. The Netherlands took in $350 million and Germany another $210 million.

We shall continue to be poor. Under the long-term Indo-Russian military technical cooperation programme there are some 350 new defence deals in the pipeline-including the production of Lada class diesel submarines, Gorshkov aircraft carrier, TU-22M long-range bombers, Akula-II class nuclear submarines and AWACS. Total tab: $4 billion. Then there is the BAE Systems Hawk jet deal with the UK. These 60 Hawks have a price tag of a billion pound sterling which is the equivalent of nearly ten years of India-UK bilateral trade. India's neighbour has billion dollar Agostas so India must also buy Scorpene 'killer submarines'. France wins both in India and in Pakistan.
More recently, Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) signed a two billion dollar weapons contract with Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL). The contract covers $280 million for surface-to-surface naval Barak missiles, $300 million for pilot-less planes, $250 million for Green Pine radar systems, Phalcon early-warning aircraft and towed howitzer for the Indian army. The US, in the meanwhile, has established a tourist-cum-investor 'no fly zone' over Pakistan while our armament wish list remains heavier than our GDP. Short range ballistic missiles, intermediate range ballistic missiles, F-16 fighters, surveillance aircraft, Harpoon missiles, long-range weapon-locating radars, rocket fuel, anti-tank missiles and combat helicopters. Additional
Main Battle Tanks (MBT) are going to cost $1.5 billion. The PAF wants a multi-billion dollar package covering Mirage 2000-5s and then there's F7-P4 aircraft from China and gunship helicopters. Spare parts from the US are also high
on our wish list.

Just who is profiting from the sale of all these machines of death and destruction? The top ten exporters of conventional weapons are USA, Russia, France, UK, Germany, Netherlands, Ukraine, Italy, China and Belarus. The top corporate merchants of death are Lockheed Martin (USA), Boeing (USA), BAE Systems (UK), Raytheon (USA), Northrop Grumman (USA), General Dynamics (USA) and Thomson-CSF (France).
When the poverty-ridden East fills West's craving for drugs there is talk of 'supply control'. The West remains the chief pretender of virtue but is the largest seller of arms to the East. The US, for instance, accounts for a full 50% of the world trade in arms.
Conflict and poverty are the closest of relatives. Look at Ethiopia, Sierra Leone, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Somalia, Nigeria, Pakistan, Haiti, Mozambique, Mali, India or Angola. They are all in conflict-either within or with their neighbours-and they are all poor. Peace is an essential prerequisite to prosperity. Without peace there can't be any poverty alleviation.
India's economy is 800% the size of ours. On a per capita basis, we have a record of spending 500% more on arms imports than does India. Which country is likely to run out of resources first?
Just who is most likely to win without firing a shot? There certainly are no prizes for getting these
riddles right.


* originally posted at Jang Group Online Editions

Dear friend, I fell that you are mixed two different economic in one post, If You want to discuss reason behind poverty in Pakistan than stick to topic don't mix poverty states in India. We will discuss it another threat..
 
However; we are now poor, because we have opted to follow socialist economics - Awam and all that - if we once again allow for regulations in which the energies of ordinary people are free to achieve for themselves, prosperity will return to country.

Go to any part of the world, any corner, you will find Pakistanis, and you will find that they are doing well, they may not be wealthy, bu they are not poor -- why??? Because they are free to do business, even if it just a small shop.

In Pakistan we have opted by socialist economics - and while there is certainly room for public private partnerships, just look at the kinds of industres and concerns the state is involved in -- why???

Because it is a source of wealth and power for bureaucrats. This is really what bureaucrats should be involved with?? Airlines, Steel, Ship building, trade, you name it - instead of incentives for private business, all incentives foster corruption by putting bureaucrats in charge of industires that produce at costs higher than private business and who sell at prices under what the market bears -- this is the source of corruption.

Government legislation and regulation should aim at promoting and enabling Pakiistani business and individuals to gain access and to succeed in the pakistani and internagtional economy, instead, we see that state controlled industries and concerns are a source of political patronage, corruption, loss making, while bleeding the public treasury.

And the present capitalist system that we have been following for the last 30 odd years has led us out of poverty?
 
a simple way to look at this is by finding out how much ur tax ravenue is and how much ur defence budget is. its not a perfect way but definately a simple one
eg: on avg pak tax ravenue is Rs 1trillion while our defence budget is around $4bn (Rs 320bn). that is lik 32% of wat our gov has got to spend. rest goes to debt servicing, gov employes, health, education, infrastructure etc etc
but the point is we cant compromise on our defence spending.
 
Dear Mr./Ms. Pirzada:

Pakistan has the lowest rate of tax collection in all south Asia and Central Asia -- Perhaps instead of following the socialist line that there is just so much of the pie, we can expand the pie??

Pakistan is in reality a rather well to do country, however; it's governance is sorry indeed. Instead of creating CITIZENS who create and pay TAXES, Pakistn have cultivated nationals who seem to think that they owe the state nothing and that taxes are for losers.


A tax regime more focused on bringing increasing percentages in to a documented status, a reasonable tax structure and a determined collection effort will see much of the problems disapear.

Your formula of reducing a specific amount from an annula budget is flawed, defense outlays do not necessarily reflect the augthorized amount. on many occasions the expeditures are on credit and multi-annual basis.

For many years motivated by self interest, some groups in Pakistan have targetted the defence budget, needless to say there much needless expenditure and we should be mindful that bringing to attention only the defence outlay is a reflection of such motivation.
 
Who the hell says we are poor? Remove all the god damn corrupt officials, frm top to bottom. You'll see the country developing. Reducing defence budget wont do any good. Just another bullshit propaganda article.
 
Dear Mr./Ms. Pirzada:

Pakistan has the lowest rate of tax collection in all south Asia and Central Asia -- Perhaps instead of following the socialist line that there is just so much of the pie, we can expand the pie??

Pakistan is in reality a rather well to do country, however; it's governance is sorry indeed. Instead of creating CITIZENS who create and pay TAXES, Pakistn have cultivated nationals who seem to think that they owe the state nothing and that taxes are for losers.


A tax regime more focused on bringing increasing percentages in to a documented status, a reasonable tax structure and a determined collection effort will see much of the problems disapear.

Your formula of reducing a specific amount from an annula budget is flawed, defense outlays do not necessarily reflect the augthorized amount. on many occasions the expeditures are on credit and multi-annual basis.

For many years motivated by self interest, some groups in Pakistan have targetted the defence budget, needless to say there much needless expenditure and we should be mindful that bringing to attention only the defence outlay is a reflection of such motivation.

yes expenditures are on credit but u have to repay them. over the longer period they become part of your debt servicing which is basically comin out of your tax ravenues. even this loan which we are taking from IMF will be comin out of our tax ravenues. if our tax collection doesnt increase we will have less to spend in future on health care, education etc given the fact we cant afford to decrease our defence spending
u r rit in sayin that targetin defence spending is not a rit way forward rather we need to increase our tax base.
 
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