Why are the Muslim Dynasties considered foreign?

[BHarwana]

Lol those were the only guys I could find too.

Tbh, there are so many different stories on Haider Ali's origins. I think I'll just leave it at unknown, the proof for this case doesn't seem concrete enough in my eyes.

The proof is in England and Portugal the original text resides there. But why do you think those idiots have Tipus pic on their entire page. They are the ancestors of them I know it I have read it in a book from 1897.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Tipu Sultan has as much to do with Pakistan as Sheikh Hasina or Ashraf Ghani.

 

[BHarwana]

Tipu Sultan has as much to do with Pakistan as Sheikh Hasina or Ashraf Ghani.

Tipu had nothing to do with Pakistan because his time was before Pakistan was created but Tipu has every thing to do with western punjab.

 

[Old School]

Those dynasties were practicing apartheid system. They remained foreigners because they never made the local population a part of the power structure. Only the Rajputs become collaborators by practicing marriages of convenience. Then again , were any Mughal daughter got married with a Rajput ? None of the local languages including Punjabi or Hindustani became the official language of the empire. It was rather a foreign language called farsi. The House language remained mostly native Chagatai during the mogul era.

Look at the bureaucracies of those dynasties. How many Punjabi muslims were recruited as general and governor or any other high posts over the period of a thousand year for the sultani and and Mogul dynasties ? None.
I am using Punjabis as just an example because they were living very close to center of power during these dynasties. British did mich better job in integrating local populations. They also built infrastructures and Universities as well as local based bureaucracy. That was also why punjabis were right to largely oppose the sepoy revolt in 1857.

Those dynasties remained foreigners until they disappeared in oblivion. This is the bitter truth.

 

[BHarwana]

Those dynasties were practicing apartheid system. They remained foreigners because they never make the local population a part of the power structure. Only the Rajputs become collaborators by practicing marriages of convenience. Then again , were any Mughal daughter got married with a Rajput. None of the local languages including Punjabi or Hindustani became the official language of the empire. It was rather a foreign language called farsi. The House language remained mostly native Chagatai during the mogul era.

Look at the bureaucracies of those dynasties. How many Punjabi muslims were recruited as general and governor or any other high posts over the period of a thousand year for the sultani and and Mogul dynasties ? None.
I am using Punjabis as just an example because they were living very close to center of power during these dynasties. British did mich better job in integrating local populations. They also built infrastructures and Universities as well as local based bureaucracy. That was also why punjabis were right to largely oppose the sepoy revolt in 1857.

Those dynasties remained foreigners until they disappeared in oblivion. This is the bitter truth.

Wrong analysis.

 

[Pakistani E]

History should be looked at objectively, the good, the bad and the ugly. People need to get over their inferior complex and treat history like a subject of academic curiosity. Keep jingoistic, religious etc biases out, teach the history of this region and include all characters, events etc.

 

[Jackdaws]

I asked you a simple question, what is the religion of dravidians/dalits? dont divert the question.


Native is something which has origins in that place, even though mughals became naturalized they still considered foreign. A white guy settled in US is still considered outsider by a native Indian american. A language like urdu which originated in subcontinent is local but arabic/persian is not. Some of the ppl assimilated and others tried to destroy the local populace and culture. Overwhelmingly it is the latter part that stands out.

When pakistanis can claim bakshali script which is written in sanskrit as theirs they can claim any thing.

I doubt a Native American considers a white guy settled in the US an outsider now. But I take your point.

They all settled and established empires, none of them came to plunder and leave other than Nader Shah and Tamerlane, and nobody is really a huge fan of them.

The Mughals weren't just based in Hindustan. One of their major cities, Lahore, is in Pakistan. They've created many towns, districts and created magnificent structures all over Pakistan too. Shah Jahan himself, one of the most powerful Mughal Kings, was born in modern day Pakistan (Lahore to be precise).

True but it was still on the periphery of their Empire rather than the nerve center. I've obviously never been to Lahore but have heard it is replete with Mughal architecture - is there any other big city besides Lahore which was also a major Mughal town?

I've heard of the Mughal fixation of certain Pakistanis but they even want to appropriate Tipu Sultan? Considering he was an ally of Napoleon - we should be thankful some Pakistanis have not yet tried to appropriate the legacy of Napoleon yet.

 

[Hamza913]

True but it was still on the periphery of their Empire rather than the nerve center. I've obviously never been to Lahore but have heard it is replete with Mughal architecture - is there any other big city besides Lahore which was also a major Mughal town?

I've heard of the Mughal fixation of certain Pakistanis but they even want to appropriate Tipu Sultan? Considering he was an ally of Napoleon - we should be thankful some Pakistanis have not yet tried to appropriate the legacy of Napoleon yet.

Lahore was a major city. Keep in mind, for many of these Islamic empires Lahore was the Winter capital, and sometimes even the capital (usually for brief periods of time though).

Hmm I'm not too sure, I know they have structures scattered everywhere though. They did create a lot of cities/towns/districts throughout Pakistan though. For example, my fathers town was founded by Aurangzeb.

Tipu Sultans heritage is different depending on who you ask. Different reports give different things. I'm not sure how much credibility this whole Jappa story has to it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were true.

Tipu Sultan has always been loved by Pakistanis, as he was a brave Muslim ruler of Hindustan.

Rich coming from a Hindustani, you guys change history to no end, denying the Indo - Aryan migrations, claiming that Pakistanis are the product of Muslim rape, denying the fact that we produced IVC, etc.

Anyway, I've only seen this Tipu was a Jappa claim on one other place. Facebook. Literally nobody believes in it so calm down.

Tipu Sultan has as much to do with Pakistan as Sheikh Hasina or Ashraf Ghani.

Let's not go that far. Pakistan was conceived as a state for Muslims of Hindustan. Any powerful Muslim rulers of Hindustan prior to Pakistan's creation would therefore have everything to do with Pakistan in my opinion, especially someone such as Tipu who spoke the same language as us (Urdu), and promoted it across his Kingdom.

The proof is in England and Portugal the original text resides there. But why do you think those idiots have Tipus pic on their entire page. They are the ancestors of them I know it I have read it in a book from 1897.

That book should be on the internet then. If you can find it that would be swell. If not, I'll take your claim with a bit of salt.

Those dynasties were practicing apartheid system. They remained foreigners because they never made the local population a part of the power structure. Only the Rajputs become collaborators by practicing marriages of convenience. Then again , were any Mughal daughter got married with a Rajput ? None of the local languages including Punjabi or Hindustani became the official language of the empire. It was rather a foreign language called farsi. The House language remained mostly native Chagatai during the mogul era.

Look at the bureaucracies of those dynasties. How many Punjabi muslims were recruited as general and governor or any other high posts over the period of a thousand year for the sultani and and Mogul dynasties ? None.
I am using Punjabis as just an example because they were living very close to center of power during these dynasties. British did mich better job in integrating local populations. They also built infrastructures and Universities as well as local based bureaucracy. That was also why punjabis were right to largely oppose the sepoy revolt in 1857.

Those dynasties remained foreigners until they disappeared in oblivion. This is the bitter truth.

Wrong. Locals (even Hindus) got pretty good positions and were praised for their assistance, as explained in earlier posts. Also, many of these rulers were descended from locals (not just Rajputs), and the people of these empires did settle down and intermarry with the local population, as also explained earlier.

They invented the current language of Pakistan (Urdu).

The British Empire viewed us all as either weak people to be used as cheap labour, or militarised tribals to be used as cannon fodder (depending on where you came from). They were not good at all.

 

[BHarwana]

That book should be on the internet then. If you can find it that would be swell. If not, I'll take your claim with a bit of salt.

It is not a book of any writer but British gazette reports on subcontinent I think you can find them in London library not that difficult.

 

[Old School]

Wrong. Locals (even Hindus) got pretty good positions and were praised for their assistance, as explained in earlier posts.

Those principalities that you mentioned were like Roman ‘foederati’ if you know what foederati means. They were not direct employees of the empire. Just name a Mughal subedar who was an ethnic Punjabi or Marathi. It is well known fact that moguls used Afghans and Rajputs as mercenaries. Again, Afghans were not local. How many non religious universities were built by these empires ? Urdu was never the official language of the empire; Urdu was popular among the mercenaries. Moguls used farsi for the official use and Chagatai Turkic for the imperial house. They maintained clear class system between themselves and the local. Local converts were never equal to the ruling invaders.

 

[Hamza913]

Those principalities that you mentioned were like Roman ‘foederati’ if you know what foederati means. They were not direct employees of the empire. Just name a Mughal subedar who was an ethnic Punjabi or Marathi. It is well known fact that moguls used Afghans and Rajputs as mercenaries. Again, Afghans were not local. How many non religious universities were built by these empires ? Urdu was never the official language of the empire; Urdu was popular among the mercenaries. Moguls used farsi for the official use and Chagatai Turkic for the imperial house. They maintained clear class system between themselves and the local. Local converts were never equal to the ruling invaders.

Adina Beg was a Punjabi, and a Mughal governor. Is that good enough for you? There were many other examples of Punjabnis holding even higher positions, as mentioned earlier (Ghazi Malik and Sikander Lodi both had Punjabi mothers).

Mughals used a lot of locals in their army, as did earlier Muslim rulers such as Muhammad Bin Qasim, I've explained this earlier.

Afghans was the old word for Pakhtuns, so yes they are very much local.

Urdu was not the official language during the peak of the Muslim Empires, but they did create and develop it and it was very popular throughout the empire (as you said).

Locals were considered equal enough to marry the Muslim conquerors, and have places in their government as well as army.

 

[Salik]

Bingo. That was the point I was trying to make earlier. What exactly is foreign? Once upon a time we were part of Achaemenid Persia and another time part of the Greek Empire. We have to describe them as foreign from context of Pakistan since this is name of a country that covers certain geography with borders. Without those Pakistan becomes meaningless.

Therefore we can only focus on those rulers with roots within the region coterminous to Pakistan. All rest are foreign. If people insist on Delhi rulers being included then I could equally argue for Kabul rulers to be included. If Tipu from South of India can be included why can't I include rulers from Mazar-e- Sharif? Or even Tashkent? They were as Muslim if not more then South Indian rulers.

To stop this drift in sea of uncertainty and keep definition of Pakistan sharp thus developing a clear untrammeled identity we must, we must focus on the region that is coterminous to Pakistan. After all 95% of us are native of this land. Time to own our own soil.

It makes Pakistan more like a physical phenomenon. As long as you are on coterminous soil of Pakistan, you are Pakistani, the moment you leave it you seize to be a Pakistani. So a person illegally crosses the border he becomes Pakistani which isn't the case. Pakistan is a legal entity. You can be anywhere in the world, if you embrace it's legality first and foremost, you are a Pakistani.

denying the fact that we produced IVC, etc.

Success has many fathers. Can you exactly tell what actually happened, how this civilization got buried in ground?