Who's right, Israel or Palestine?

[Skorpian]

The Palestinians never ruled the country, the Jewish immigration was a result of international backing and British authorisation. The locals only began to call themselves Palestinians in the 1920's.

Just because Palestinians never actually had a country called " Palestine " doesn't mean that immigrants can come in and kick them out. Wake up, it was called the British mandate for PALESTINE, not British Mandate for Israel. Did they just call it Mandate for Palestine because they liked the name Palestine?
What Birtish authorisation? Did the British really own Palestine to say that their authorisation actually makes a change?
Let's say that, hypothetically, X nation occupies Israel in the upcoming few years and they give authorisation to all Palestinians around the globe to come back and enter Israel and establish a Palestinian state, will you as an Israeli agree? Even if they have international backing, you won't agree, never will you ever agree.

 

[nirreich]

Just because Palestinians never actually had a country called " Palestine " doesn't mean that immigrants can come in and kick them out. Wake up, it was called the British mandate for PALESTINE, not British Mandate for Israel. Did they just call it Mandate for Palestine because they liked the name Palestine?
What Birtish authorisation? Did the British really own Palestine to say that their authorisation actually makes a change?
Let's say that, hypothetically, X nation occupies Israel in the upcoming few years and they give authorisation to all Palestinians around the globe to come back and enter Israel and establish a Palestinian state, will you as an Israeli agree? Even if they have international backing, you won't agree, never will you ever agree.

There was no independent country called Palestine and there was no nation called Palestine, the locals called themselves Arabs.

The Jewish immigration was not on the expense of the Palestinians, not a single Palestinian village was destroyed and Jews came to live on its place. The Jews settled exactly where the Palestinians did not live - most of the land was deserted. BTW, Arabs from around the Middle East immigrated in large numbers to Palestine after the Jewish immigration began in order to enjoy the prosperity of the country.

This were the international conditions back then, after WWI - the Middle East was divided according to the will of the Colonial powers. if Israel has no right to exist, then neither all the other countries in this region.

The British had full authority to allow Jewish immigration because they receive the control over the land for the objective of creating a Jewish homeland. This mandate was given to the British in 1920 by the League of Nations, the organisation which was before the UN.

Not what the founders of the Israeli state have said.

This is getting absurd: what do you want to argue, that the leaders of Israel did not believe in their own vision?

 

[Skorpian]

There was no independent country called Palestine and there was no nation called Palestine, the locals called themselves Arabs.

The Jewish immigration was not on the expense of the Palestinians, not a single Palestinian village was destroyed and Jews came to live on its place. The Jews settled exactly where the Palestinians did not live - most of the land was deserted. BTW, Arabs from around the Middle East immigrated in large numbers to Palestine after the Jewish immigration began in order to enjoy the prosperity of the country.

This were the international conditions back then, after WWI - the Middle East was divided according to the will of the Colonial powers. if Israel has no right to exist, then neither all the other countries in this region.

The British had full authority to allow Jewish immigration because they receive the control over the land for the objective of creating a Jewish homeland. This mandate was given to the British in 1920 by the League of Nations, the organisation which was before the UN.

Damn it, I told you just because Palestinians never had an independent nation, that doesn't give you the right to come in and throw them out. They were there before you, just not being an independent nation doesn't mean they have no right to the land on which they living!!!
Not a single Palestinian village was destroyed? Dude, ever heard of Beir Yassen massacre??
Well, the middle east was divided by colonial powers, but still all countries here would have the right to exist even if Israel does't have the right to exist. That's because there were people on such areas, if the colonial powers hadn't divided the countries, these countries would have sooner or later been formed, whether by same or different borders of now.
The League of nations was in no way like the UN currently, it didn't really have the same number of countries like the UN currently. Also, Britain was given Palestine because of the colonial and occupying desires of the allies after the war. It was handed to them to create a Jewish homeland, but what right did the victors of WW1 have to form a country on a land with people already there? Even if they went to certain areas with low number of inhabitants, does that mean that I can go to a certain area in any country that has low population and establish my own country?!?!

 

[humanfirst]

If the refugee situation started after the Palestinian defeat of 1948 war which they started with clear genocidal intend,i think the blame should be on palestine/arab states.When Ottoman provinces were divided to nation states,both muslims and jews in palestine were allocated a nation and the majority of palestine(5/6 th to be more precise)came under another arab muslim nation-trans jordan,which btw expelled all jews.Israel did accept that solution but palestinians and arabs didn't,and they waged a genocidal war against isreal..with rants like this:
"murder the Jews. Murder them all"- from the grand mufti of Palestine
“It does not
matter how many [Jews] there are. We will sweep them into the sea,””
Arab league gen.Secretory

It was the arabs who rejected the two nation solution again and again..How then israel can be called responsible for the mess?

 

[nirreich]

Damn it, I told you just because Palestinians never had an independent nation, that doesn't give you the right to come in and throw them out. They were there before you, just not being an independent nation doesn't mean they have no right to the land on which they living!!!
Not a single Palestinian village was destroyed? Dude, ever heard of Beir Yassen massacre??
Well, the middle east was divided by colonial powers, but still all countries here would have the right to exist even if Israel does't have the right to exist. That's because there were people on such areas, if the colonial powers hadn't divided the countries, these countries would have sooner or later been formed, whether by same or different borders of now.
The League of nations was in no way like the UN currently, it didn't really have the same number of countries like the UN currently. Also, Britain was given Palestine because of the colonial and occupying desires of the allies after the war. It was handed to them to create a Jewish homeland, but what right did the victors of WW1 have to form a country on a land with people already there? Even if they went to certain areas with low number of inhabitants, does that mean that I can go to a certain area in any country that has low population and establish my own country?!?!

As I said, all the Jewish villages and towns which were established until 1948 did not come on the expense of Arab villages and towns, and the Arabs were not expelled. As I said, on the contrary - there was an Arab immigration into British Palestine in light of its prosperity.

As I said again and again, there were no people to take their country from, most of the land was deserted with only around 500,000 people living in it, 20% were Jews (with a majority in Jerusalem). The locals defined themselves as Arabs, so it seems very fair to give the Jewish people their historic homeland on the a little piece of the Middle East while the Arab people in the Jewish historic homeland will be able to decide: either they want to live as full citizens in a Jewish state or if they wish to live in an Arabic state they can move there (like Muslims in South Asia who had to choose between India and Pakistan, and some decided to move). As I said there was no national claim of Palestinian to this territory in order to establish their own state, that only came after the British mandate already began in the objective to create a Jewish homeland.

Capish?

 

[Skorpian]

As I said, all the Jewish villages and towns which were established until 1948 did not come on the expense of Arab villages and towns, and the Arabs were not expelled. As I said, on the contrary - there was an Arab immigration into British Palestine in light of its prosperity.

As I said again and again, there were no people to take their country from, most of the land was deserted with only around 500,000 people living in it, 20% were Jews (with a majority in Jerusalem). The locals defined themselves as Arabs, so it seems very fair to give the Jewish people their historic homeland on the a little piece of the Middle East while the Arab people in the Jewish historic homeland will be able to decide: either they want to live as full citizens in a Jewish state or if they wish to live in an Arabic state they can move there (like Muslims in South Asia who had to choose between India and Pakistan, and some decided to move). As I said there was no national claim of Palestinian to this territory in order to establish their own state, that only came after the British mandate already began in the objective to create a Jewish homeland.

Capish?

I'm not talking about establishing the villages and towns now, I'm against the migration from the beginning.
First of all, no not 20% of the population was Jewish, there were very few Jews in Palestine till the massive wave of migration began.
Second, what do you mean there were no people to take from? There were 500,000 people, just because it was a low number doesn't mean it isn't their rightful right to prevent migration from other countries. There are countries which are pretty large and a small population if compared to its area, does that give any people the right to go to the uninhabited areas and establish a state there?!
Third, you didn't reply to my question. If Country X occupies Israel and decides to set up a homeland for people of any religion with international backing, will you accept as an Israeli? Even if they have authorisation and International community accepts, you won't accept, never.
Fourth, about this goal of historic homeland. Seriously this is ridiculous with all due respect. Just because people of your religion lived in a certain area thousands of years ago doesn't mean that you can go there!! Land isn't distributed by religion!
Also, it was pretty clear that Zionism actually didn't put their eyes on taking Palestine until all hopes in all other areas, for example Australia, Uganda, East Prussia, were lost. If Zionism was really a movement to move the Jews back to their " homeland ", they wouldn't have taken into consideration any countries but Palestine.

 

[humanfirst]

Well, the middle east was divided by colonial powers, but still all countries here would have the right to exist even if Israel does't have the right to exist. That's because there were people on such areas, if the colonial powers hadn't divided the countries, these countries would have sooner or later been formed, whether by same or different borders of now.

There were significant jewish population in palestine even at the time of division of middle east..It was a whooping 45000 square mile of land of ottoman empire consisting of arabs and jews.There were 4 basic alternatives:
(1) give all the land, even that in which the Jews were a majority, to some new Arab state;
(2) give all the land, even the part in which Arabs were the majority, to the Jews;
(3) turn all the land over to Syria, to be ruled from Damascus; or
(4) divide the land between the Arabs and the Jews so that each could create a homeland
based on self-determination

Wasn't the 4th one fairer?

And for your speculation that these arab states would have formed otherwise,thats just a wild speculation.You could all still be living under ottoman caliph(as dreamt by many muslims today who oppose division and blame british for partitioning caliphate).

 

[nirreich]

I'm not talking about establishing the villages and towns now, I'm against the migration from the beginning.
First of all, no not 20% of the population was Jewish, there were very few Jews in Palestine till the massive wave of migration began.
Second, what do you mean there were no people to take from? There were 500,000 people, just because it was a low number doesn't mean it isn't their rightful right to prevent migration from other countries. There are countries which are pretty large and a small population if compared to its area, does that give any people the right to go to the uninhabited areas and establish a state there?!
Third, you didn't reply to my question. If Country X occupies Israel and decides to set up a homeland for people of any religion with international backing, will you accept as an Israeli? Even if they have authorisation and International community accepts, you won't accept, never.
Fourth, about this goal of historic homeland. Seriously this is ridiculous with all due respect. Just because people of your religion lived in a certain area thousands of years ago doesn't mean that you can go there!! Land isn't distributed by religion!
Also, it was pretty clear that Zionism actually didn't put their eyes on taking Palestine until all hopes in all other areas, for example Australia, Uganda, East Prussia, were lost. If Zionism was really a movement to move the Jews back to their " homeland ", they wouldn't have taken into consideration any countries but Palestine.

You should understand one thing and it will make you life much easier - the world does not run on justice and it never has and never will. If you are trying to determine if justice was made or not with the Palestinians we can go in circles until eternity. There was a certain reality and it changed and each step the Zionist movement made the right decisions and the Palestinians constantly took the most damaging ones.

Now, as for immigration, again, nobody asked the locals because no one ever asked anywhere in the world before, this was colonial time, before that you had empires, who cared what few people think. For example the Ottomans brought all kinds of immigrants into Palestine and did not ask the locals what they think, they even allowed Westerns to settle in - like the German Temple order - without any permission of any local. This were the times and you try to judge those times on 21 century scale.

As for your question, it is not a question of right or justice or what is allowed or not allowed. This was an historic circumvent with certain factors and the Zionist Movement used it to help its people who were prosecuted in East and Central Europe. If a greater power will occupy Israel and decide to build there alternative nation of course I object to it, but unlike the Palestinians I will try to save what I can and not object any proposal and any compromise.

Now, as I said the Jews were already living in Palestine in significant numbers and were a majority of the residence in Jerusalem before the British mandate. And the Zionist movement rejected any plan to establish a Jewish state outside the Jewish historic homeland - after all Zion means the land of Israel.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Both are right . And i am not being diplomatic .

Both have a right to exist and the two state solution is the only and correct way forward .

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Too many Indians on here voting for their master America's little son

 

[PteX]

Too many Indians on here voting for their master America's little son

Wrong! I voted Palestine for kicks.

 

[clmeta]

America is master of that country that allowed it/ may be even requested it to drone its citizens. All for money.
That ditched its true friend(Taliban) to give supply lines. All for money.

Too many Indians on here voting for their master America's little son

 

[Zabaniyah]

Might makes right...

 

[Tacit Wave]

ofcourse Israel,palestinians are useless to this whole damned world........

if world is damn, then you are also useless.

 

[nirreich]

if world is damn, then you are also useless.

Again and again the same falsified map appears in threads in PDF.

Use something which has not become obsolete.