Who are Iraq war's winners and losers?

[gambit]

What do you mean? It is no secret that the US supported Saddam in the First Gulf war? Rumsfeld met with him and they provided weapons and training.. google it, since that is common knowledge I'm to lazy to provide you with sources.

The US never denied it..

You mean the Iraq/Iran War? Why do you have a problem with US in supporting Iraq in that conflict? The other petty despots in the region were in with US as well.

Gulf Cooperation Council [GCC]

The Gulf Cooperation Council [GCC] was established in an agreement concluded on 25 May 1981 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia between: Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and UAE. These countries declared that the GCC is established in view of the special relations between them, their similar political systems based on Islamic beliefs, joint destiny and common objectives. The GCC is a regional common market with a defense planning council as well. The geographic proximity of the these countries and their general adoption of free trade economic policies are factors that encouraged them to establish the GCC.

Based on their conviction about the connected nature of their security and that an aggression against any one of them is deemed an aggression against all of them, cooperation in the military field has received the attention of the GCC states. Such conviction stems from the facts of geopolitics and faith in one destiny. Moreover, the security challenges in an unstable regional environment, like the Gulf area, imposes on the GCC States coordination of their policies and mobilization of their capabilities.

The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) was formed in 1981 to confront their security challenges collectively. The immediate objective was to protect themselves from the threat posed by the Iran-Iraq War and Iranian-inspired activist Islamism (also seen as fundamentalism). In a series of meetings, chiefs of staff and defense ministers of the gulf states developed plans for mutual defense and launched efforts to form a joint command and a joint defense network.

We have never denied our involvement with Iraq. Why do you deny the fact that others in the region were also involved with Iraq? This alliance, political and military, is in principle no different than NATO or SEATO or other ad-hoc cooperatives in history when several neighbors banded together for mutual defense. Look at the recent African crisis for example...

Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Economic Community of West African States Monitoring Group, or ECOMOG, was a West African multilateral armed force established by the Economic Community of West African States (ECOWAS). ECOMOG was a formal arrangement for separate armies to work together. Its backbone was Nigerian armed forces and financial resources, with sub-battalion strength units contributed by other ECOWAS members — Ghana, Guinea, Sierra Leone, Gambia, Liberia, Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, and others.

So why do you not condemn the GCC for supporting Iraq in the Iraq-Iran conflict? Was Donald Rumsfeld the only high level diplomat to shook hands with Saddam Hussein? At least we only shook hands, the other GCC diplomats probably kissed (yeeccchhh) Saddam Hussein.

 

[Thomas]

Interesting formulation. Jesus claiming his existence before Abraham makes him a God, or does it?

There are two ways I can answer this, admittedly common, Trinitarian propaganda:

1) One way is to analyse whether or not Jesus’ claim of having existed prior his worldly arrival is unique to him. And is it significant to begin with?

2) The other, more complex way of ascertaining the veracity of your claims is by comparing speeches directly attributed to God with those attributed to Jesus. God also uses the words “I am”, and in the English renderings there is no apparent difference between the “I am” uttered by Jesus. However, if we analyse the words used in the earlier Greek manuscripts we find that Jesus refers to himself in a completely different fashion to God.

There are many passages that refer to Jesus divinity and who he is.

Isaiah 9:1-7 The people who walk in darkness will see a great light; those who live in a dark land, the light will shine on them. You shall multiply the nation, you shall increase their gladness; they will be glad in Your presence as with the gladness of harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil. For You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders, the rod of their oppressor, as at the battle of Midian. For every boot of the booted warrior in the tumult, and cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire. For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; and the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Romans 9:1-5 I speak the truth in Christ I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

1 Timothy 3:16, And without controversy, great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1) How many people existed before Abraham and had a pre-human existance? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb;

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)"

He was appointed as a prophet before he was born and his destiny was conceived of prior his earthly existence, well before Abraham .Yet, I hear nobody say that his pre-human existence qualifies him as some sort of a God. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the first thing to be created by God, and he was created even before Adam (upon him be peace); this doesn’t mean however, that Muhammad is god.

To conclude, pre-human existence is not identifiably extra to Christ and it does not infer divinity. For you to maintain this stance you would have to add Jeremiah to your trinity turning it into a quadruplet.

It is generally accepted by most (but not all) theologians that this passage refers to predestination. It is not saying Jeremiah lived before but that God being omniscient Planned out Jeremiahs life before he was born. Even Islam believes in predestination.


As far as the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Torah). In Israel the Hebrew Torah was used mainly. outside Israel the LXX (Septuagint) was used becuase few of the church leaders could read Hebrew.

 

[HK-47]

The true winner of Iraq war is only Humanity..
Its the end of barbaric rule of Saddam Hussain.. US and other countries are contributing to build the Iraq again so that humanity can prevail...

True.those defence and construction companies are the only winners in this.Nobody else.we still have to see whether the current government and the subsequent ones in the future will be better than Saddam.

BTW are Indians involved in the reconstruction project?and what kind of relations did they have with Saddam back in his golden age?

tell that to the Shia, Kurds, and hundreds of thousands of people Saddam tortured and killed.

don't claim the moral highground.Everybody knows about Abu Gharib.

Not to mention the hundreds of thousands that died in the Iran Iraq war.

and you supported them,right?


Personally I believe this war dragged the US economy to where it was and still is now.I read that book "Bush at War" and the guy didn't have a real good reason to attack Iraq.Something to do with daddy's failure some say.

 

[fhassan]

Thomas my son, I was about to tell you to not reply becasue I am in the process of editing my post; a dear friend of mine has given me some insight into the verses you presented and I am in the process of formulating a much more in-depth reply that focuses on the Greek words employed.....

so, please take it easy for a while.... God willing I will give you the final part of my answer soon enough.

 

[gambit]

True.those defence and construction companies are the only winners in this.Nobody else.we still have to see whether the current government and the subsequent ones in the future will be better than Saddam.

And if it is not, whose fault will that be?

don't claim the moral highground.Everybody knows about Abu Gharib.

Which everyone knows pales in scale in comparison to what MEastern despotic regimes do to their own citizens everyday.

Personally I believe this war dragged the US economy to where it was and still is now.I read that book "Bush at War" and the guy didn't have a real good reason to attack Iraq.Something to do with daddy's failure some say.

And others said it is more likely the failure of the ME to contain Saddam's nuclear ambitions.

 

[HK-47]

And if it is not, whose fault will that be?

Yours.Who else will be to blame?You created the situation in the first place for these elements allowing them to come back to power.If they perform better then that's good.If they don't then this whole war is a total failure for you.After all wasn't that your main objective?not the WMDs but the betterment of the Iraqis?

Which everyone knows pales in scale in comparison to what MEastern despotic regimes do to their own citizens everyday.

and you people caught up a lot with Gitmo and AG alone.Okay you had a reason,9/11.But you can no longer lecture others about human rights.

Is it true there are more such facilities in European countries?remember reading an article or two about them.

 

[fhassan]

Dear HK-47

I have been monitoring Gambit for quite some time now and have concluded that virtually everything he says needs to be taken with a truck load of Sodium Chloride.

Best to ignore him.

In answer to the question for which this thread was made:

There are no winners. Only losers and unfortunate souls. A war such as this, fought under a false premise can never yield winners. Those who fought under the false premise fought in vein and died in vein. Those who fought against the aggressors were very unfortunate indeed, but they met in battle none the less.

And as for those who concocted the false premise to begin with, they may think they are the winners, but they are the losers and perceive not. Their recompense is near.

 

[gambit]

Yours.Who else will be to blame?You created the situation in the first place for these elements allowing them to come back to power.If they perform better then that's good.If they don't then this whole war is a total failure for you.After all wasn't that your main objective?not the WMDs but the betterment of the Iraqis?

How predictable...

Saddam Hussein kept sectarian conflicts in check by favoring one sect over the other and often did institutionalized such discriminations. One example is the military whose leadership is dominated by Sunnis while the rank-and-file were Shias. The Sunni officer corps openly abused their Shia subordinates with impunity. So when Saddam Hussein was removed and the US erased this institutionalized discrimination, guess what? There will be blood on the streets and the Iraqi society also became ripe for recruitment by al-Qaeda. Saddam Hussein incorporated sectarian differences into the Iraqi civil society, most notably the military institution, to the detriment of the Iraqi civil society. May be that is acceptable to the muslims over there in the ME but it is alien and unacceptable to US. If you blame US for the current CIVIL mess in Iraq, and it is no longer a military affair over there, as in we are 'allowing' these killings to occur, then in effect you are demanding that we be as brutal and as despotic as Saddam Hussein himself.

and you people caught up a lot with Gitmo and AG alone.Okay you had a reason,9/11.But you can no longer lecture others about human rights.

Please...Stop the jokes...You are killing me...

In Gitmo, the prisoners were given daily time to pray, their own Korans, many of them actually gained weight from eating real food. Have you seen the pictures of the guys we sent to the Pacific? For Abu Ghraib, what happened was an anomaly but actually is the norm for the ME. Do you really think Syrian and Libyan jailers took what we did in AG seriously? The CIA contemplated using INSECTS to scare some prisoners as interrogation techniques. Insects? The Iranian jailers of the recent democratic protest must be laughing their socks off when rape, beatings and murders are routine for them.

The contradiction is glaring...On the one hand you practically demanded that we be as brutal as Saddam Hussein to keep the Iraqi civil society from collapse from their own sectarian hatred. But on the other hand you held US to human rights standards that none in the ME take seriously.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

How predictable...

Saddam Hussein kept sectarian conflicts in check by favoring one sect over the other and often did institutionalized such discriminations. One example is the military whose leadership is dominated by Sunnis while the rank-and-file were Shias. The Sunni officer corps openly abused their Shia subordinates with impunity. .

Now USA has just switched the players, Shias are in power and doing what Sunnis were doing to the other

 

[gambit]

Now USA has just switched the players, Shias are in power and doing what Sunnis were doing to the other

We did not give the Shias equal footing with the Sunnis in the desire of seeing Iraq fall into chaos. Iraq is going to be an example to the world, for good or bad, on whether ANY country in the ME is capable self governance without resorting to despotism.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

We did not give the Shias equal footing with the Sunnis in the desire of seeing Iraq fall into chaos. Iraq is going to be an example to the world, for good or bad, on whether ANY country in the ME is capable self governance without resorting to despotism.

USA should have chosen Egypt as the country to be made an example for democracy in ME as its close to USA and Israel doesn't have Sunni Shais problem, educated etc.

I hope Iraqis will find peace among them self but I am afraid the day USA will left Iraq the civil war will start not good for that nation

 

[gambit]

USA should have chosen Egypt as the country to be made an example for democracy in ME as its close to USA and Israel doesn't have Sunni Shais problem, educated etc.

Egypt is a stable regime. Note that I said stable, not democratic. As recent events in Iran demonstrated, not even in YOUR lifetime will there be a functional democratic regime in the ME. Those who wish for democracy thru peaceful means will be brutally put down. Egypt will have evolve towards democracy from within and it most likely be violent.

I hope Iraqis will find peace among them self but I am afraid the day USA will left Iraq the civil war will start not good for that nation

Am not optimistic as well. That is our gross misjudgement that democratic institutions and ideals are possible in the ME.

 

[Patriot]

With all due respect Gambit, I think you've got to accept that Iraq war was a failure.To say that GW Bush Invaded Iraq for imposing democracy would be quite frankly illogical.You are getting too much defensive.We're not saying all American people are responsible for Iraq war but let's face it Bush Administration waged a illegal war and he should have been stopped.Now millions of Americans have realized that Iraq war was wrong.

 

[Thomas]

With all due respect Gambit, I think you've got to accept that Iraq war was a failure.To say that GW Bush Invaded Iraq for imposing democracy would be quite frankly illogical.You are getting too much defensive.We're not saying all American people are responsible for Iraq war but let's face it Bush Administration waged a illegal war and he should have been stopped.Now millions of Americans have realized that Iraq war was wrong.

You say it is a failure but please tell us specifically in what areas you believe it has failed. In many areas of Iraq the people were actually sorry to see the U.S. troops pull out. Defiantly there are those that will hate the U.S. no matter what. Especially ex Bathists, and Shia, Sunni extremists.