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Who are Iraq war's winners and losers?

The weak? You forget the Soviets whom we outlasted, outsmarted and outfought?

Soviets were not attacked directly by US, it was a cold war, and Soviets lost due to their own stupidity. By the way Soviets made US to loose with 60,000 troops & in return soviets lost 13,000 troops, so in case of loosing troops in the cold war, US lost.

Say that it is true. Care to offer an alternative? And please do not insult everyone's intelligence, including your own, by bringing up to next to worthless UN. Like it or not, the world NEEDS an authority figure to maintain some semblance of order. First -- order, then hopefully -- law.

Who said anything about UN, that is dick less due to the Super 5, each one makes it UNable for their own goals. Veto power.

As for alternative, if US does wishes to be a Policeman, then be a just Policeman, not doing police work for its own use. Where is US & its police work when thousands of Palestinians were slaughtered & getting slaughtered too ?? Where was US when thousands were killed in the refugee camps by Israeli forces in Lebanon ?? Where was US when Lebanon was attacked and thousands killed ?? Where is US when thousands get killed in Sudan ?? In Somalia ?? In Kashmir ?? How come US supplied weapons to Iraq in 80s ?? & also Iran which had a repressive regime under the Shah ?? Supplying weapons to both Iran & Iraq in their 8 years of war ?? The Iran-Contra affair ?? How US used Pakistan for its own purposes & then left to rot ??

Many other incidents could be referred to.


And now Sir you also please do not insult everyone's intelligence, including your own, by bringing up some BS kind of arguments to counter US atrocities.

Looking at your stature at this form a fair view is expected & it would be appreciated to show your humanity by accepting what wrong US does & has done, resulting in hundred of thousands of human beings killed. Do see the figures of human being killed due to American WoT in both the occupied countries & the effect on its neighboring countries. The american soldiers killed & loss to the american nation are separate too. American human loss is regrettable but if US had been doing justice with its world police work, americans would not have been hated so much nor would have been the first choice target for terrorists or groups seeking their basic right to live as human beings.

So remark with justice not as some .....................
 
Soviets were not attacked directly by US, it was a cold war, and Soviets lost due to their own stupidity. By the way Soviets made US to loose with 60,000 troops & in return soviets lost 13,000 troops, so in case of loosing troops in the cold war, US lost.
Is that it? The best counter argument for a lost war, as in The Cold War, is how much US troop lost in Viet Nam versus how much Soviet troop lost in Afghanistan? I suggest you do some research on me on this forum. You will find to your discomfort that you are in no position to debate the Vietnam War against me in any context.

Who said anything about UN, that is dick less due to the Super 5, each one makes it UNable for their own goals. Veto power.
Good...Then we can agree that the world is largely lawless.

As for alternative, if US does wishes to be a Policeman, then be a just Policeman, not doing police work for its own use.
By your argument, not only would we have taken over Israel, but all over the entire ME simply for the sake of removing petty despots who are too immature to compromise. No...The US in our leadership role in the world, even when the Soviets existed, we may not have acted in the best of our professed morals, but we are far better than the overlord whom all of the petty despots in the ME got their weapons and learned new ways of oppressing their peoples. You do not like our claim to War on Terror? Then examine your own societies, pre and post Cold War, and ask questions other than from the typical victimhood mentality the world is slowly getting tired of hearing from the ME.
 
Yes we do consider Jesus a Prophet, but Bible is not the true word of God, it has been modified through out centuries & the true word of God has been replaced or modified to a lot of extent. That i guess u even knew.

This argument is used a lot. The answer is long and detailed. Here is a link I suggest people to read that might help explain.

Are the Biblical Documents Reliable?

Here s a link that chronicles the question. Has the Koran changed?

The Origins of the Koran

Also any debate here please lets keep civil. I know Religion can stir up the passions in people.
 
This argument is used a lot. The answer is long and detailed. Here is a link I suggest people to read that might help explain.

Are the Biblical Documents Reliable?

Impressive article.

I have never read so much misinformation in my life, and I can rebuke the whole article with relative ease.

For example, the 4,000 Greek manuscript assertions are counterproductive simply because no two are the same even when relating to the same book, chapter and verse.

The article has as its foundation the premise of meticulous scribe’s writing ad verbatim, the validity of which can be ascertained through reference of original Greek manuscripts. Fair enough.

Now Thomas, I want you to do something. Open a copy of your own Bible and reproduce for me what john 8:7 alleges Jesus to have said.

It shouldn’t take too long, and we will take it from there. I also want you to tell me how you view your own Bible, and do you view other versions differently?

Regarding Jesus being the Son of God - what do you mean by that?

Many people are given this title in the Bible, for example:

1 Chronicles, chapter 28:

[Here, David is being quoted.]

3: But God said to me, `You may not build a house for my name, for you are a warrior and have shed blood.'

4: Yet the LORD God of Israel chose me from all my father's house to be king over Israel for ever; for he chose Judah as leader, and in the house of Judah my father's house, and among my father's sons he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel.

5: And of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

6: He said to me, `It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my Son, and I will be his Father.

7: I will establish his kingdom for ever if he continues resolute in keeping my commandments and my ordinances, as he is today.'


Many prophets are called "Son of God", and some people are even called "lord". An understanding of Jewish way of speaking reveals that such titles simply meant that these individuals were close to God, and no Jew ever interpreted them to mean divinity. So my Question to you is why should Jesus be treated any different?

What is the difference?
 
Impressive article.

I have never read so much misinformation in my life, and I can rebuke the whole article with relative ease.

For example, the 4,000 Greek manuscript assertions are counterproductive simply because no two are the same even when relating to the same book, chapter and verse.

The article has as its foundation the premise of meticulous scribe’s writing ad verbatim, the validity of which can be ascertained through reference of original Greek manuscripts. Fair enough.

Now Thomas, I want you to do something. Open a copy of your own Bible and reproduce for me what john 8:7 alleges Jesus to have said.

It shouldn’t take too long, and we will take it from there. I also want you to tell me how you view your own Bible, and do you view other versions differently?

Regarding Jesus being the Son of God - what do you mean by that?

Many people are given this title in the Bible, for example:

1 Chronicles, chapter 28:

[Here, David is being quoted.]

3: But God said to me, `You may not build a house for my name, for you are a warrior and have shed blood.'

4: Yet the LORD God of Israel chose me from all my father's house to be king over Israel for ever; for he chose Judah as leader, and in the house of Judah my father's house, and among my father's sons he took pleasure in me to make me king over all Israel.

5: And of all my sons (for the LORD has given me many sons) he has chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the LORD over Israel.

6: He said to me, `It is Solomon your son who shall build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my Son, and I will be his Father.

7: I will establish his kingdom for ever if he continues resolute in keeping my commandments and my ordinances, as he is today.'


Many prophets are called "Son of God", and some people are even called "lord". An understanding of Jewish way of speaking reveals that such titles simply meant that these individuals were close to God, and no Jew ever interpreted them to mean divinity. So my Question to you is why should Jesus be treated any different?

What is the difference?

Now Thomas, I want you to do something. Open a copy of your own Bible and reproduce for me what john 8:7 alleges Jesus to have said.

As you already know John 8:7 is not in the earliest manuscripts that have survived. Just as my own bible points out. As do any other decent study bibles. However we do know where any changes have been made by comparing copies. john 8:7 is what is considered and interpolation.

The section is not found in its canonical place in any of the earliest surviving Greek Gospel manuscripts; neither in the two 3rd century papyrus witnesses to John nor in the 4th century Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus, however all four of these manuscripts may acknowledge the existence of the passage via diacritical marks at the spot. The first surviving Greek manuscript to contain the pericope is the Latin/Greek diglot Codex Bezae of the late 4th or early 5th century. Papias (125 CE) refers to a story of Jesus and a woman "accused of many sins" as being found in the Gospel of the Hebrews, which may well refer to this passage; There is a very certain quotation of the pericope adulterae in the 3rd Century Syriac Didascalia Apostolorum; though without indicating John's Gospel. The Second Epistle of Pope Callistus section 6 contains a quote that may be from John 8:11 - "Let him see to it that he sin no more, that the sentence of the Gospel may abide in him: “Go, and sin no more.”" However the epistle quotes from eighth century writings and is not thought to be genuine.

Until recently, it was not thought that any Greek Church Father had taken note of the passage before the 12th Century; but in 1941 a large collection of the writings of Didymus the Blind (313- 398) was discovered in Egypt, including a reference to the pericope adulterae as being found in "several copies"; and it is now considered established that this passage was present in its canonical place in many Greek manuscripts known in Alexandria and elsewhere from the 4th Century onwards. In support of this it is noted that the 4th century Codex Vaticanus, which was written in Egypt, marks the end of John chapter 7 with an "umlaut", indicating that an alternative reading was known at this point.

Jerome reports that the pericope adulterae was to be found in its canonical place in "many Greek and Latin manuscripts" in Rome and the Latin West in the late 4th Century. This is confirmed by the consensus of Latin Fathers of the 4th and 5th Centuries CE; including Ambrose, and Augustine. The latter claimed that the passage may have been improperly excluded from some manuscripts in order to avoid the impression that Christ had sanctioned adultery:


"Many prophets are called "Son of God", and some people are even called "lord". An understanding of Jewish way of speaking reveals that such titles simply meant that these individuals were close to God, and no Jew ever interpreted them to mean divinity. So my Question to you is why should Jesus be treated any different?

What is the difference?"


When you say no Jew has interpreted them to mean divinity you are mistaken. Christianity itself was a Jewish sect. to the average Jew after Jesus death and resurrection. It was known as "the way". Today you have within the Jewish community and Israel what are known as Messianic Jews. These are Jews who have come to accept Jesus as the Messiah. There are approximately 500k of them in Israel today. Even those Jews that do not accept Jesus as their Messiah. know that the Messiah is the son of God and is considered equal with God.

Luke 22:70- They all asked, "Are you then "the" Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

John 8:54-59- Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."

Why did the Jews want to kill him? becuase the Jews knew that by him saying "before Abraham was I am" he was declaring his divinity.

As far as him being the Messiah read Matt 16:13-16

"When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, Who do people say the Son of Man is? They replied, Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets. But what about you? he asked. "Who do you say I am? Simon Peter answered, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

Jesus was put to death for a reason. Because he declared himself to be the Messiah. The Jews were looking for a Messiah that would deliver them from the Romans and setup his kingdom. They did not realize that first he needed to come to reconcile man back to God. He became the sacrificial Lamb taking upon himself the Sins of all. Past, present, and future. that is why it was written that through Abraham all the nations of the world would be blessed.
 
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Sherwood Ross is a leftist who criticizes just about everyone that is centrist or conservative. 99% of his articles are political in nature. The winners in Iraq were the Iraqi people who no longer have to live under the rule of Saddam and his sons.

Then who was the loser in Iraq war.
do n t gave saddam bullshit.
 
I have an Iraqi Shia friend who was born in Iraq, and moved to the UK when he was 15.

In his opinion the Saddam era was better, according to his family living there; and it would have been even better had it not have been for all the sanctions and ongoing affects of the first gulf war.

A question comes to my mind, If regime change was what you really wanted, why not just kill Saddam and his family?

why invade the whole nation?

Something to think about.

you are absolutely right.

here, i have a shia iraqi friend doing his PhD in the same hospital where i am doing mine. he also has the same opinion. Although he wanted saddam to be killed in the first place but now he regret this.

his opinion is that after invasion by US there are more clashes between shia, kurds and sunnis in iraq than before invasion. now the US forces are leaving iraq and we can see that these clashes are and will increase, to get hold of power of the country. US has invaded iraq and killed the same number of iraqi people that saddam has killed. moreover, the economy has gone down the drain which was not strong before. so US and allies has used iraq and after get all the benefit out of it they are leaving iraq with a much bigger mess than before.

this is his opinion (an iraqi shia muslim)

the winners of this war were the companies listed before (boeing, lockheed etc) and the oil companies who get hold of the shares of the iraqi oil. losers were off course people of Iraq.

regards

sincerely
 
A question comes to my mind, If regime change was what you really wanted, why not just kill Saddam and his family?

why invade the whole nation?

Something to think about.

I am not condoning the invasion or anything like that, but the CIA tried to assassinate Saddam many times and failed since he himself had been trained by them in the first Gulf War(with Iran), so that was not really an option. He had one of the best security teams with many doppelgangers etc.


The issue with Blackwater is really quite the scandal, they seem to have free rain in Iraq and Afghanistan, not really being accountable to anyone.
130.000 mercenaries (not only soldiers all kinds) for 600 private contractors work in Iraq alone.. I think we are witnessing the first true 21st century war here.

Book recommendations:
Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army, Jeremy Scahill
Corporate Warriors: The Rise of the Privatized Military Industry, P.W. Singer
 
I am not condoning the invasion or anything like that, but the CIA tried to assassinate Saddam many times and failed since he himself had been trained by them in the first Gulf War(with Iran), so that was not really an option. He had one of the best security teams with many doppelgangers etc.
As usual...When it comes to the US, anything made-up should be taken as gospel with no credible source to back it up.
 
Losers Iraqi People with loaded JDAM's on F-16 flying over there head

Winners American crusaders they have manged to kill over 200,000 innocent people and have no war crime in their list wake up Muslims the new Iraq is going to be Pakistan hope for the best prepare for the worst
 
UN chief said ...

Question (Q)...

Kofi Annan (A)...

Q: So you don't think there was legal authority for the war?

A: I have stated clearly that it was not in conformity with the Security Council - with the UN Charter.

Q: It was illegal?

A: Yes, if you wish.

Q: It was illegal?

A: Yes, I have indicated it is not in conformity with the UN Charter, from our point of view and from the Charter point of view it was illegal.

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Excerpts: Annan interview

BBC: Was the invasion of Iraq in 2003, without a Security Council resolution, the most difficult point for you in your term?

Kofi Annan: It was extremely difficult, because I really believed that we could have stopped the war and that if we had worked a bit harder - given the inspectors a bit more time - we could have.
…

BBC: Is it civil war?

Kofi Annan: I think, given the level of violence, the level of killing and bitterness and the way that forces are arranged against each other. A few years ago, when we had the strife in Lebanon and other places, we called that a civil war. This is much worse.

BBC: You must in some way feel sadly vindicated - in 2003, in March, you said that: "A war can lead to unintended consequences, producing new threats and new dangers."
It is sad - it is sad in the sense that it had to come to this.

BBC: Was it a mistake? Some Iraqis say that life is worse than it was under a dictator.

Kofi Annan: I think they are right in the sense of the average Iraqi's life. If I were an average Iraqi obviously I would make the same comparison, that they had a dictator who was brutal but they had their streets, they could go out, their kids could go to school and come back home without a mother or father worrying, "Am I going to see my child again?" And the Iraqi government has not been able to bring the violence under control.

The society needs security and a secure environment for it to get on - without security not much can be done - not recovery or reconstruction.

...

BBC NEWS | Special Reports | Kofi Annan interview: Text
 
As usual...When it comes to the US, anything made-up should be taken as gospel with no credible source to back it up.

What do you mean? It is no secret that the US supported Saddam in the First Gulf war? Rumsfeld met with him and they provided weapons and training.. google it, since that is common knowledge I'm to lazy to provide you with sources.

The US never denied it..
 
Greetings Thomas

There seem to be two distinct debates going on between us, and I think it would be best to focus on one. Once that reaches certitude, we will move on to the integrity of the Holy Scriptures.

Let us debate the divinity of Christ first, as the verses you have brought up are very interesting indeed.



Luke 22:70- They all asked, "Are you then "the" Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."

John 8:54-59- Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!" "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds."


Interesting formulation. Jesus claiming his existence before Abraham makes him a God, or does it?

There are two ways I can answer this, admittedly common, Trinitarian propaganda:

1) One way is to analyse whether or not Jesus’ claim of having existed prior his worldly arrival is unique to him. And is it significant to begin with?

2) The other, more complex way of ascertaining the veracity of your claims is by comparing speeches directly attributed to God with those attributed to Jesus. God also uses the words “I am”, and in the English renderings there is no apparent difference between the “I am” uttered by Jesus. However, if we analyse the words used in the earlier Greek manuscripts we find that Jesus refers to himself in a completely different fashion to God.

1)
How many people existed before Abraham and had a pre-human existance? The Bible presents Jeremiah as being a prophet before he was conceived in his mother's womb;

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations. (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 1:5)"

He was appointed as a prophet before he was born and his destiny was conceived of prior his earthly existence, well before Abraham .Yet, I hear nobody say that his pre-human existence qualifies him as some sort of a God. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was the first thing to be created by God, and he was created even before Adam (upon him be peace); this doesn’t mean however, that Muhammad is god.

To conclude, pre-human existence is not identifiably extra to Christ and it does not infer divinity. For you to maintain this stance you would have to add Jeremiah to your trinity turning it into a quadruplet.

2)
In Exodus chapter 3, God allegedly says: "I am what I am." Long before the time of Jesus, there existed a Greek translation of the Old Testament called the Septuagint. The key word, "I am," in Exodus is translated as "HO ON." However, when Jesus uses the word in John 8:58 the Greek of the "I am," is EGO EIMI. If Jesus wanted to tell the Jews that he was claiming to be God he should have at least remained consistent in the use of words or the whole point is lost.

Thousands of people would have given the answer “I am” to a question during the era of Christ and indeed before, does this make them all gods?

Herein is another major problem, and that is the motley collection of your earliest manuscripts all of which are in different languages, that Jesus never spoke to begin with.

Allow me to elaborate, using these very verses as an example.

Exodus 3 reads: "I am what I am", (as most English Bibles translate the earlier Hebrew text)

John 8:58 reads: "Before Abraham was, I am" ( as most English Bibles translate the earlier Greek text)

Now we have a major problem. The original of the first text is in Hebrew, while the original of the second is in Greek. All but a few of the words of Jesus were recorded in Greek. For 200 years before the time of Jesus the Jews used a Greek translation of their Hebrew scriptures.

As I highlighted earlier, The Septuagint translated the key phrase, "I am" , of Exodus, as ho on. However, the words of Jesus, "I am", have been given to us in Greek as ago ami. If the gospel writer of this passage wanted to tell his Greek speaking audience that Jesus had imitated God, he would have used the familiar words of the Septuagint, otherwise the point would be lost. The evidence of this verse is far from conclusive.

Finally; Mark, Matthew nor Luke document Jesus as having said “I am”, and only the later gospel of Johan contains this verse. If it is so important why don’t the rest of the gospel writers have it?

To conclude, from a literary aspect this is an embarrassing argument to put forth. God Unequivocally declares his divinity to everyone throughout the Bible, and Jesus appears to have said "I_am" ("ego eimi" ) to only John , and this according to you is crystal clear evidence of Jesus claiming to be God….

Why did the Jews want to kill him? Because the Jews knew that by him saying "before Abraham was I am" he was declaring his divinity.

Jesus (upon him be peac) never claimed divinity. The reasons for the Israelites wanting him dead are quite simple and are alluded to by Jesus himself:

Matthew 23:35-39 (pay particular attention to verse 37)

35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.


And Jesus, angry with their treatment of Prophets, understandably abandons them until they acknowledge that Lord sent him, like He sent the prophets a foretime.

Him claiming to be a prophet of God, being sent by God in His name was sufficient for the Jews to kill him, he did not need to claim divinity for such a thing to happen. Indeed, he never claimed such a thing to begin with.

Further evidence:

Acts 7:52- "Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted and they have slain them which showed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers".

know that the Messiah is the son of God and is considered equal with God.

Did Jesus consider himself as an Equal with God?

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (From the NIV Bible, John 14:28)"

Jesus clearly took “the father”, referring to God, as being far greater than him, so why do you make them equals?

If Jesus was God, he would be conducting his own will. However, Jesus was always carrying out the will of “He who sent me”, and never his own will. There are many verses relating to what I have just said. One example should be sufficient:

"So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. (From the NIV Bible, John 8:28)"

All I ask for is a single quote from the Bible where Jesus says “I am God, Worship me”, or something along those lines. After all, God said this numerous times so why doesn’t Jesus?
 
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Winners: The Middle East (for now)

Once again, all these petty despots have to worry about is conventional arms parity; oil cartel prices; oppression of their own peoples; perpetuating current and creating new conspiracy theories about the Jews; and general distrusts of each other.

Losers: The Middle East (forever ?)

Once again, the region proved the peoples can only be ruled by petty despots. Iraqis were GIVEN a chance to reshape their country, no matter how badly handled by US after removing a hated petty despot with nuclear arms ambitions, and the Iraqis ended up killing each other. Iranians DEMANDED a chance to reshape their country in a peaceful rejection of a petty despot, and as usual, the petty despot with nuclear arms ambition turned out to be no different than any other petty despots in the region.
 

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