When will Pakistan become a 1st world country?

[Hephaestus]

South Asian countries are unpredictable. Just cannot be called.

 

[GreenFalcon]

I apologize but your view is not based on facts.

I will refrain from commenting on Pakistani situation as you and @Kaptaan and @save_ghenda would be better placed to speak on that topic.

As far as India is concerned, Kashmir is an issue that at best very marginally(at best) affects India's quest for growth.

You must understand India from Indians perspective instead of using Pakistani prisms of 'impact' of Kashmir on the country.

For example, the truth is that India is both geographically and population wise a massive country.
The troubling geography for us - Kashmir - has a total population of 7 million.
India has a total population of 1.3 billion i.e 1300 million.

Kashmir makes zero tangible impact to the life of 99.999% Indians regardless of whether every single Kashmiri is wielding a Kalashnikov on the street or even if working in a factory adding to the country's GDP.

They are just too small in number to make any difference to India either ways. Not even a drop in an ocean.

India has been moving up economically quite steadily since the 90's despite the fact that Kashmir blew up in our face in the 90's with lads wielding anti-tank rifles openly in city streets in Kashmir.

The point is - Short of a nuclear bomb going off in Kashmir, Kashmir cannot even affect 1% of our GDP growth either ways (both positive or negative).

Whether we are succeeding or failing . For India at least, we cannot blame Kashmir and Pakistan. What does affect us is the system of governance in our country. That affects us. The rest is just white noise.

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On the issue of what @Kaptaan said. I can concur on his and @save_ghenda 's thought within my own country if that helps you at all.

Today, a much larger percentage of Indians care less about ethnicity & caste than a decade back. The number of inter ethnic marriages and inter caste marriages is going through the roof. This was unimaginable for most Indians of the last generation (i.e the parents of those getting married now).

Kaptaan & @save_ghenda - I will also identify the cause of why this has happened. And what is responsible for this change in thought process. It is not money per se what has brought about and is bringing about this change. It is market economy unleashed in 1991 which means education and jobs!


The reduction of state patronage networks of old which depended on ethnic relations and caste - like seth businesses and patwari culture -and rise of new competitive market economics has led to the massive boom of colleges & white collar jobs in India is almost exclusively responsible for this happening.

Earlier all these were limited to patronage networks of old which worked on the basis of caste/ethnicity. Once these networks started getting broken up in 1991 ( our big bang market economy started that year), slowly market economy is taking shape. The market economy is smashing the old networks.

Because a college will not accept you if you are of a certain caste nor will IBM give you a job because of your caste. Your knowledge will give you that job.

As an entrepreneur - the raw material you buy will be bought from supplier that offers the desired quality at lowest price. No one will buy a product of higher price because the supplier is of a certain caste.

For the new generation the economic payoffs of caste and ethnicity have reduced tremendously over the last 2 decades and so the impact follows in social sphere.

Because admission in all colleges is competitive - any student or his parent can now very very rarely ensure that they go to college in the same city. The overwhelming majority of students have to travel elsewhere for college education. Live in hostels or shared accomodation with countless others. They have to leave their comfort zones of their confines straight out of 12th standard school.

From there they have to travel to a third city/state for jobs. This has led to intermingling of different Indians in ginormous numbers that has brought about a massive change in thought process.

Almost every single college educated Indian now has to travel to get jobs. A graduate from Delhi is going to work in Bangalore while a graduate from Tamil Nadu is doing to work in Gurgaon.

A bengali can no longer think of an Andhraite as the 'other'. Or a punjabi can no longer think of a bihari as 'other'. And vice-versa. They now meet everyone from everywhere in whichever state they go to.

This is an ongoing process. It has only started happening in the last 20 years. It has barely started and already the impacts are more than you can imagine. There are many other parts of the state which have not mixed into this melting pot. Assam and North East states for example are still not as mixed as the others are. But the march of the market economy and jobs is unstoppable.

Another 20 years in the future and India would be unrecognizable by even people like me.

Oh I'm so sorry to bring up Kashmir, I forgot that we fought multiple wars over it and you have 700,000 of your Soldiers deployed to harass its citizen. I also forgot that Kashmir could lead to an all-out Nuclear war that would wipe out millions in this region. How can it possibly have any effect on both the countries' economies. Silly me

 

[Articulate]

Oh I'm so sorry to bring up Kashmir, I forgot that we fought multiple wars over it and you have 700,000 of your Soldiers deployed to harass its citizen. I also forgot that Kashmir could lead to an all-out Nuclear war that would wipe out millions in this region. How can it possibly have any effect on both the countries' economies. Silly me

And despite having localized war with Pakistan in Kashmir and massive uprising in Kashmir(with rocket launchers and Kalashnikovs), India kept delivering high economic growth rates for over 10 years continuously, second only to China.

Or that despite having no war with Pakistan and no uprising in Kashmir in from early 70's to all of 80's(almost 20 years), India had very low economic growth.

What does that tell you?
It should tell you that Kashmir doesn't really make a massive impact on India's economic growth trajectory either way.

 

[Well.wisher]

If you read my previous posts I took care to avoid the term 'Western liberal'. That is so because it is now redundant and also is factually incorrect. I prefer the 1st world. Most people call it 'Western liberal' because West was the first to reach 1st world and therefore became typecast. The fact is same phenomenon can be seen in any country of any ethnic group in any part of the world that is 1st world. That is why I mentioned Hong Kong, Tokyo, Seoul,London, New York, Paris, Moscow, Rio de Janerio beating to the same rhythm.

Tokyo nightlife

Gay bar

Hong Kong

London

What is the differance? The almond eyes?

Ewww :/ ..
No plz .. No homosexuality . We are not loot nation. If Pakistan nauzubillah became homo , it would be cursed by God. I will leave pak if it ever became homo .

It would take us maybe more than 50 to 60 years ( If God wills) to become first world but we should not loose our morals and religious values.
I have no any grief that pak isnt a developed country , atleast we have our own values.
Being a developed nation with islamic norms would create a perfect islamic soceity .

Havs no grief , This world isnt jannah for muslims and never would be .

 

[T-123456]

When a average Pakistani can live with homosexuality, gender equality, religious freedom, sexual freedom then Pakistan will have arrived at the 1st world station.

So.............,never?

 

[Well.wisher]

First thing is get rid of madarrasas and jahil mullahs get rid of religious extremism give quality education to Pakistanis and than you will see the change in 10-20 years. Basically first we've to tackle this problem.

ry.

So you want to say our generation should be deprived of quran teachings and quran knowledge and we should have no hafiz e quran ?
The extremist mullahs and madrassas should be banned but instead we should produce a moderate teachers and madrasas to give the light of islam to our generation .

 

[newb3e]

well if trump can become leader of the so called free world Pakistan might become 1st world country someday!

 

[Curious_Guy]

I read only 2-3 pages ..and respectfully i totally disagree with a poster saying first world equals freedom of speech , equity , gender equility , homsexuality , alcohol , parties , religious freedom etc ... I mean are those bold words really important to be a first world ? Cant a country preserve its culture and still go on to become a developed country ?

I also disagree with ban madrassas , why ? Reduce extremism ( i dont think it will ever eradicate ) but Ban ...a big no .

 

[mike2000 is back]

If Pakistan became first world and West gave grief it would react by giving West a thrashing - so to speak, as it would have the muscle to do so and in doing so sober it up.

Only the weak and lack of balls, so to speak fall back on burning flags and delivering fatwas, sermons and declaring jihads.

Pakistan, if it were developed with a population of 200 million plus would carry enormous clout in the world. There would be no need of delivering religious sermons when carrier battlegroups, nuclear attack submarines would do the talking in addition to huge economic leverage over the world.

You are definitely one of the most smartest Pakistanis I have come across on here.

No ty have not. In fact it can work the opposite way. By adopting a pro development model a country can became strong and able to defy the dominant powers. This can bring angst from the West.

On the contrary you can run a religious hell hole like KSA which of course has no real strength to do anything is is beholden to US, thus is seen as a ally. China has adopted most of what West runs on but has taken it even further. It actually pose a real threat and you know what the situation is.

And I repeat China is one step ahead of the West. It is not just secular but hyper-secular.

* You guy's are aware that most Chinese are athiest?

Top Athiest countries in the world.

1. China.
2. Japan.
3. Czech Republic.
4. France.
5. Australia.

This is something our diplomatic Chinese members take care to broach. But this is the reality. Chinese are most secular (hyper-secular) and irrelegious than any other people on earth.


Link > http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/atheists-countries-list-six-world-most-convinced-a6946291.html

This is one thing I agree 100%. You are spot on.

 

[Cyberian]

If there are no further moronic and disastrous military take overs, then it'll take about 20-30 years from 2013 onwards to change the fortunes of the nation from third world country to first world country.

However, if there's another military blunder, then Pakistan will be a banana republic yet again for another 10 years.

 

[mike2000 is back]

To me, apart from the usual indicators (Health, economic might, military prowess, scientific research, standard of living, energy consumption, factory output, general happiness of people, religious tolerance , etc.), I like to define a developed or first world country as a :

Nation where the government protects even those voices that rise up against it.

Country where the minorities are not subject to the tyranny of the majority.

Country where the basic rights of people are not dependent on public opinion.

Country where people understand that unscientific jargon has no place in state policy or children's education.

Place where people understand that our differences are in no way of greater consequence than what we can create together.

Country where the people have the freedom to make fun of and belittle not only the most powerful people in their country, but the country itself. No nation is stable that can be shaken with satire.

Country where class structures are penetrable and unstable. A place where anyone with will and fortitude can make it big. I.e country who offers the opportunity for anyone(irregardless of race/background) to succeed based on merit.

Nation where capitalism is about more than cronyism, bureaucracy is more than about nepotism, and politics is about more than division.W hose leaders put their country first
Country with a stable political system , who offers freedom to its citizens and with strong institutions that limits abuse of power by its rulers.

Nation where women stand shoulder to shoulder with men and share the burden of the national economy and the freedom to be their own selves.

Country where you are the ultimate authority to your identity. A nation where you get to choose how your story will be told.

Nation that is not monolithic. A nation that is never finished nor stagnant. A nation that is constantly reinventing itself through thousands of tiny evolutions every day.

Place where your ancestral background, physical features and ethnic or religious identity is secondary to the content of your character.

My definitions may not be consistent with those accepted in many circles. It is what I hope to see many poor backward developing nations turn into. It is the source of all the disdain I feel for certain political systems and it is the source of all the happiness I feel when I see another nation steering their ship towards these ideals.
To be honest, by even Britain, U.S and many develope first world countries meet all these criteria to the dot. but we are the closest to meeting all these points. reason people the world over want to travel or send their children for a better life in the West(even those who say they despise eaten countries lol )

 

[Lycurgus.]

It would need about three generations refreshing to reach 1st world. To put it bluntly it would need average Pakistani to think like a Japanese, Chinese, German, British, Canadian etc.

When a average Pakistani can live with homosexuality, gender equality, religious freedom, sexual freedom then Pakistan will have arrived at the 1st world station. We have to keep in mind these are symptomatic of being first world and not related to being Western, American etc. For example Chinese share more values with British then with Pakistani's. Ditto Japanese.

Indeed all 1st world countries despite what ethnic group or geographic region display remarkably similar characteristics. It appears that underlying dynamics of a 1st world economy generate similar profile of population.

Homosexuality? Wtf. Is this what pakistanis have come to? A bunch of free thinking boy lovers. Shame on you pal.

 

[GiannKall]

Western societies are dying. Why exactly you want to match them?

 

[litman]

keeping in view the level of corruption in each and every organization of the country the answer is" NEVER".

 

[GeraltofRivia]

just my 2cents...

It is clearly very hard to predict with certainty that where Pakistan will stand in term of economic development in the next 20-30 years but I guess we be confident that that Pakistan will at least become a member of the middle income club or even in the low end of high income club in a optimistic scenario(I try not to use 1/2/3 world BTW), the exact position will be influenced many factors, both external and internal ones.

The key external factor is no doubt the economic standing of China at that time. Although the future is uncertain, what we do know now is that even after 30 years's rapid growth, China has just touched the low end of middle income club on a per capita basis, which means there is still a lot catch-up to do in the coming decades. I am hoping that by that time China will be at the low end of the high income club, which would mean the OBOR is a great success and whole Asia and at least eastern Africa have achieved significant economic growth.

At the same time point, Pakistan should most likely have the first and second phases of CPEC projects fully completed with third phase in construction. A large number of industries should have been setup in various business parks, taking advantage of ample energy, modern rail/highway/port and a large skilled labor force. The industrial and consumer goods will be shipped by various transportations to meet the demand in the newly developed markets, as well as the local market dominated by middle income class.

The internal factors have been extensively discussed by other members including governance and other social issues, which I dont have the knowledge to make comment.

Lets keep up the good work!