When Our Brave Lashkars Were Knocking at the Gates of Srinagar and Beyond

[Psychic]

I would like to know why Pakistan should have been planning a change of status quo in 1983, through military action, and when beaten to the draw, went on planning to change the status quo through military action in 1999. Is it perhaps included in the role-definition that Pakistan should plan to change the status quo through military action, and India should, in all cases, simply react?

The first effort to change status quo on the LOC was not made in 1983 (PA snow gear order). The line had already been violated prior to that by the Indian side. The first ever violation of the Simla Agreement was made by India right after it was signed; when Indian forces occupied Chorbet La area by crossing the LOC and establishing five posts upto a depth of three kilometers.

Coming to the Siachen region, while its true that it was undemarcated as per the Karachi Agreement, the language used (from NJ9842 thence North to the glaciers) was vague. Pakistan claimed the area on the basis of having controlled it since 47. Both India and the rest of the world acknowledged Pakistan's de-facto control over Siachen. India publicly acknowledged it in her Parliament and in its written communications with Pakistan[when it was protesting against the Sino-Pak 1963 Boundary Agreement]. International mountaineering groups also accepted, Pakistan’s version of the LOC (which included Siachen). To add further to this, I quote:
" The Atlases reflecting Pakistan’s version of the LOC were produced in the US and UK by National Geographic and by Encyclopaedia Britannica (1979) and in the maps produced in the prestigious American Alpine Journal and Hugh Swift’s classic Trekkers Guide to the Himalaya and the Karakoram. Even US agency maps showed Siachin as part of Pakistan. India also made somewhat muted counter claims. Indian military launched its first expedition into the area in the late seventies, (prior to Pak shopping endeavor in 83 + attempt to change status quo). India opted not to publicly criticize the Pakistani control or express ‘fear’ of a complete Pakistani take-over of the area. India’s rethink on the area and its decision to overturn the status quo began in the late seventies................ However, when several mountaineering maps caught India’s attention, Delhi began focusing on the status of Siachen and its surrounding areas. These international maps, depicting a straight line canting off at a north-easterly angle and terminating on the Chinese border, had placed Siachen inside Pakistan."

Now, coming to the actual military expeditions in Siachen, the first ever was made in 1978 by Col Narinder Kumar planting Indian flag there. In 1981, India sent 70 soldiers on an eight week long expedition. In 1982, Pakistan sent two patrols which found evidence of presence of Ladakh Scouts in Goma which included Indian currency. In 1983, an SSG patrol encountered Indian presence, Indians withdrew rapidly; that was the time when Pakistan felt the need to militarily occupy the region and the race to take over the passes began. However, by this time, Indian preparations to occupy the region were already underway. India's occupation of the glacier was not a knee-jerk reaction to Pakistan's arctic equipment order as it was already sending military expeditions to the glacier to survey, reconnoiter and map the area since 1978. The narrative of "pre-emptive" takeover sells since no one is there to question it with facts like the take-over of Chorbet La, acknowledgment of Pakistan's defacto control or Kumar and Chibber's military expeditions in 1978 and 1981. Long before the militarization of Siachen region, India had already demonstrated by capturing Chorbet La in 1972 that whosoever is able to grab a piece of land through barrel of a gun will retain it as long as it could by force even when it is a blatant violation of a written agreement.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

It is the Political and Military Elites who have really destroyed Pakistan and its citizens from within. These are the real corrupt and ruthless enemy. They had chances in 1947/48 and in 1962 was literally a gift from China. But these corrupt Junta on the behest of US and UK did no dare to venture into an empty Kashmir. And look at what is going on today. Kashmir is a flashpoint which is capable of killing millions and millions of people, and destroying vast areas on both sides. Just imagine if these gutless rulers would have done the right thing, it would be highly likely that Pakistan and India would have been economically much, much better off, and most likely having less regional and border issues.

Brother, we must remember that everything is from the qudrat of Allah swt. We were simply not meant to get all of Kashmir in that battle. We learn from past mistakes and past successes and use that knowledge in the future.

There is blessings in even that, if we look. It kept Pakistan on the edge of a knife, we grew battle hardened, we did not rest, we know our goal now. It does not stop with Kashmir. We will vanquish the enemy totally.

Let's not dwell on "what if" scenarios. Kashmir will be free and it will be by our hands. Our religion has assured us of victory.

I personally cannot see any scenario in which India can defeat Pakistan. Looking at terrain, defenders, irregulars, lashkars, Pakistani ground forced preparedness, PAF, Chinese support, and discontent in Occupied Kashmir, and even India as a whole.

India is chasing an illusion. They will face men ten times harder, more dedicated to their cause, and with firm religious conviction in protecting their country and people.

Daydream only.

 

[Psychic]

Hi,

Those facts may make you happy---but I know a different side of the story---.

Facts are facts. Our posts were falling. Tiger Hill and Tololing had already fell long before Sharif went to the US to celebrate July 4. Our soldiers were surviving on meagre rations if any, many pickets were out of ammo.

but I know a different side of the story

You perhaps know a story about Kargil war, not reality.

I wish most posts would be of this quality. It would need less effort correcting details and impulsive claims by impulsive contemporary liberators.

This is one of the few times where I have to agree with an Indian member.

While the people of AJK fought and liberated their lands, sons of soil belonging to uber martial races took the entire credit for liberating AJK. Those who proclaim themselves as liberators sacked Baramulla sowing the seeds of distrust which showed their effect in operation Gibralter. To this day, many in Pakistan believe in this myth that the locals did nothing and the tribals did all heavy-lifting.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The first effort to change status quo on the LOC was not made in 1983 (PA snow gear order). The line had already been violated prior to that by the Indian side. The first ever violation of the Simla Agreement was made by India right after it was signed; when Indian forces occupied Chorbet La area by crossing the LOC and establishing five posts upto a depth of three kilometers.

Coming to the Siachen region, while its true that it was undemarcated as per the Karachi Agreement, the language used (from NJ9842 thence North to the glaciers) was vague. Pakistan claimed the area on the basis of having controlled it since 47. Both India and the rest of the world acknowledged Pakistan's de-facto control over Siachen. India publicly acknowledged it in her Parliament and in its written communications with Pakistan[when it was protesting against the Sino-Pak 1963 Boundary Agreement]. International mountaineering groups also accepted, Pakistan’s version of the LOC (which included Siachen). To add further to this, I quote:
" The Atlases reflecting Pakistan’s version of the LOC were produced in the US and UK by National Geographic and by Encyclopaedia Britannica (1979) and in the maps produced in the prestigious American Alpine Journal and Hugh Swift’s classic Trekkers Guide to the Himalaya and the Karakoram. Even US agency maps showed Siachin as part of Pakistan. India also made somewhat muted counter claims. Indian military launched its first expedition into the area in the late seventies, (prior to Pak shopping endeavor in 83 + attempt to change status quo). India opted not to publicly criticize the Pakistani control or express ‘fear’ of a complete Pakistani take-over of the area. India’s rethink on the area and its decision to overturn the status quo began in the late seventies................ However, when several mountaineering maps caught India’s attention, Delhi began focusing on the status of Siachen and its surrounding areas. These international maps, depicting a straight line canting off at a north-easterly angle and terminating on the Chinese border, had placed Siachen inside Pakistan."

Now, coming to the actual military expeditions in Siachen, the first ever was made in 1978 by Col Narinder Kumar planting Indian flag there. In 1981, India sent 70 soldiers on an eight week long expedition. In 1982, Pakistan sent two patrols which found evidence of presence of Ladakh Scouts in Goma which included Indian currency. In 1983, an SSG patrol encountered Indian presence, Indians withdrew rapidly; that was the time when Pakistan felt the need to militarily occupy the region and the race to take over the passes began. However, by this time, Indian preparations to occupy the region were already underway. India's occupation of the glacier was not a knee-jerk reaction to Pakistan's arctic equipment order as it was already sending military expeditions to the glacier to survey, reconnoiter and map the area since 1978. The narrative of "pre-emptive" takeover sells since no one is there to question it with facts like the take-over of Chorbet La, acknowledgment of Pakistan's defacto control or Kumar and Chibber's military expeditions in 1978 and 1981. Long before the militarization of Siachen region, India had already demonstrated by capturing Chorbet La in 1972 that whosoever is able to grab a piece of land through barrel of a gun will retain it as long as it could by force even when it is a blatant violation of a written agreement.

It is difficult to disagree with a post of candour and transparency. I am very happy to see such an approach, and will try to emulate it, and match it, as best as I can.

 

[T90TankGuy]

A reply I can expect of you. I have retreated somewhat lately and self-demoted myself temporarily on some topics...I prefer to be as cautious as possible given infliction I receive and continue to receive from those assigned to watch over...so its almost 2nd nature now (so I will say degree and stop there, though I know better).

I am thus maybe a lancer-scout at best on these sensitive topics (my depth and expertise is also not so great). I increasingly conserve my steel and dry powder for where its best expended on various other topics where I feel ground of engagement is more certain.

But I expect, respect and have grown accustomed to heavy cavalry stuff from you..and you dismount like dragoon as your sage experience and convenience calls for too...

So I will summon you occasionally in topics like this one, as I expect you to pay back by similar occasional summons elsewhere.

You are simply of far greater station on these topics and many worthies (allies, spectators and opponents) in PDF know it. You are also around lot more compared to @jbgt90 whom I hold in similar station for these. The others I hold there (from our lot) more or less have absconded all together.

I read almost everything , but stopped contributing due to the toxic atmosphere of this forum . its much better now a days as we have gone back to discussing defense rather than whose is bigger. .

 

[IceCold]

We as a nation will always regret missing two golden opportunities to take Kashmir, one in 1947/48 and the other in 1962. Both mainly due to the slow reaction of the top brass than.Today i will not focus on the details of operations conducted by the volunteers who took part in the freedom of Kashmir.
COMPOSITION OF THE VOLUNTEER FORCES
The volunteer Lashkars comprised mainly from.
1)22 Lashkars from similar no of tribes with a strength of 25000-30000 men.
2)AJK irregular forces led by Sardar Ibrahim with a strength of 6000 men.
3)Scots from different agencies mainly Kurrum and Gilgit 1500 men.
4)Retired army personnel and Muslim league guards 2000 men.
5)State soldiers of Swat,Dir and Chitral 3000 men.
6) Some volunteers from religious outfits 1000 men.
(The above numbers are approximately correct)

VOLUNTEERS IN PICTURES
a) Tribemen from Waziristan

b) Afridi Volunteers

View attachment 632963

c)Mohmand Tribesmen

d)Miscellaneous Tribemen

e)Men from Swat state

f)Volunteer from Kurrum Militia

There are many more images of volunteers.

VICTORIES OF THE VOLUNTEER LASHKARS
What these brave men achieve in the initial days of the conflict was unprecedented. In the very first month they had reached the outskirts of Srinagar and had the Dogra forces surrounded.

Within a year they were near Leh, the capital of Ladakh.

The Royal Pakistan army could not join the War initially because of Field Marshall Auchinleck. The Army entered a year later in 1948, by that time it was a bit too late.
We are all praise for these brave men who endured a lot for Pakistan. They remained away from their homes for months,many embraced martyrdom and many got injured. We Pakistanis will always be grateful for their sacrifices for the motherland. Hazrat Allama Iqbals poetic phrase below truly depicts these brave men.
View attachment 632968

Still Indians mistake us for Bengalis and believe that they can get GB and AJK from Pakistan? Kashmir would had been ours long ago if the leadership wasnt such a wuss to this day. Ayub missed such a golden opportunity in 62. As much as we like to blame politicians, the army higher ups werent better either when it came to decision making and doing the right thing.
However the opportunity has once again presided it self, now its up to Khan and Bajwa how they want to be remembered in History.

 

[PradoTLC]

no need to be disheartened , give another try .
1998 musharraf was good effort .

dont worry the next round is upcoming.

 

[prashantazazel]

These tribesmen could have advanced further and captured more territory. Interestingly, they got busy in activities that prevented their progress.
(do lookup, what activities...)

 

[AfrazulMandal]

It does not stop with Kashmir. We will vanquish the enemy totally.

This gives me hope.

May your tribe grow. Destroy the Sanghis. Completely.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I always say that Pak army is a blessing in disguise for India if they know. Pak army serve a wall or barrier protecting India from the Tribes of Pakistan and Afghanistan, whom throughout the history raided and invaded them

They first raided and invaded Punjab which is you.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

May your tribe grow. Destroy the Sanghis. Completely.

I was rejoicing on this news today but it turned out not to be true.

However the opportunity has once again presided it self, now its up to Khan and Bajwa how they want to be remembered in History.

I wish if this happens,need to do something tangible other than rhetoric.

Bro lovely thread, small correction AJK troop strength was 90,000 men, not the 6,000 stated, which is the number of men in around Poonch that served and fought.

Thank you for your compliment. I did try to find any pictorial proof and exact composition of the AJK regulars but in vain. The only piece of info i read stated that Sardar ibrahim requested 4000 rifles and ammo from the Pakistani Govt!

 

[waz]

Thank you for your compliment. I did try to find any pictorial proof and exact composition of the AJK regulars but in vain. The only piece of info i read stated that Sardar ibrahim requested 4000 rifles and ammo from the Pakistani Govt!

No worries brother, I put up references from the extensive work that Snedden has done on the conflict;

The figure was 90,000 men. Regarding arms my grandfather and elders refused to give up the arms and ammunition they bought back from the Second World War, which led to a confrontation with a Dogra company set to disarm them. They were wiped out near Kotli and I have accurate details of the battle fought.
They literally came back rifles in tow and had their bags, satchels, utility belt pouches etc full of bullets. There were Bren guns bought back, some (excited types) contemplated explosives i.e. grenades but common sense ruled and they were left back .

A nice article about a veteran here in the UK;

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/meadows-muslim-veteran-99-reflects-3518441

 

[WarKa DaNG]

If the militia had some support back then today the situation would be alot different

 

[truthfollower]

It is clear from this thread we have short term memory and dont want to look at complete history of war between India and Pakistan.
History clearly shows India outplayed and outsmarted us in this war.
what about East Pakistan? India took full revenge and we fought against our own people, the same way we did it in Kashmir. But no need to talk about it because never mind we never considered them Pakistani anyway.
and now what about Baluchistan? Last i read there was IED blast and operations are still on going there(mostly border region) and what about Sindh? They have also started talking about independence. And recently there was twitter trend against dam construction.
And what about our western border with Afghanistan and Iran? Now we are fencing it like we made India fence their western border with constant infiltration attempts. India again took full revenge with interest.
In the end more losses and zero gains.
Our policy makers never going to learn lesson. Cant even control the territory they have now and dreaming about taking our Kashmir.

So stop this nonsense.

 

[khansaheeb]

no need to be disheartened , give another try .
1998 musharraf was good effort .

The blood of a martyr is never spent in vain and freedom knocks on every tyrant's door. Kashmir is northern Pakistan and we will take it whatever the cost.