When NSA Ajit Doval outlined India's new Pak strategy- defensive offense - perfectly

[coffee_cup]

Please look at the dates. Please do your homework on the activities of R&W first.

Ok, lets do it: How long has Devil been chief of RAW before he became NSA?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Ok, lets do it: How long has Devil been chief of RAW before he became NSA?

That precisely and exactly underlines your ignorance. You need to know from when R&W was authorised to re-build its networks. You need to know, from any friends you might have in your own intelligence set-up, how long it takes to set up a network. Please have the goodness to do your foundation work, and stop jumping up and down over the wrong sequence to follow.

 

[kasper95]

Because he has taken Indian sponsorship of cross-border terrorism to the next level, by ordering terrorist attacks on funerals, schools, hospitals etc.

How can one not hate such a moron? He must be declared a terrorist master-mind in the subcontinent. Hafiz Saeed is nothing compare to this extremist fanatic.

Blind hate ,if have noticed the terrorist related deaths came down in Pakistan after he became NSA. I would have agreed with you if there more deaths after he took the office.but i guess hate makes one irrational.

 

[coffee_cup]

That precisely and exactly underlines your ignorance. You need to know from when R&W was authorised to re-build its networks. You need to know, from any friends you might have in your own intelligence set-up, how long it takes to set up a network. Please have the goodness to do your foundation work, and stop jumping up and down over the wrong sequence to follow.

Sir, I don't care how long it takes to set up a network of "intelligence" to sponsor terrorism in my country.

The fact that this dude has been very actively involved in terrorist strikes in Pakistan is enough for me to condemn him as a terrorism master-mind and demand his extradition to Pakistan or at least prosecution of being terrorism master-mind in India.

Ok, you can't take any action against fanatics like him, Swami, Manohar, Modi etc? Fine, but then you should also stop demanding similar action against other fanatics like Hafiz Saeed, Masood Azhar etc.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sir, I don't care how long it takes to set up a network of "intelligence" to sponsor terrorism in my country.

The fact that this dude has been very actively involved in terrorist strikes in Pakistan is enough for me to condemn him as a terrorism master-mind and demand his extradition to Pakistan or at least prosecution of being terrorism master-mind in India.

It is something that you DO need to care about, for the simple reason that he was powerless to do anything until he became NSA, because that is when policy changed, in 2014. Recall that EVERYTHING that happened before then was conjectural; recall that anything that can be claimed with some credibility by Pakistan against Indian intelligence agencies dates from after 2014. A huge amount of terrorist damage was BEFORE 2014.

Now do you understand what I am telling you?

Ok, you can't take any action against fanatics like him, Swami, Manohar, Modi etc? Fine, but then you should also stop demanding similar action against other fanatics like Hafiz Saeed, Masood Azhar etc.

Who said we can't? Unlike Pakistan, with its skewed and distorted processes and its permanent veto in the hands of the military, we vote, a very real and very significant distinction. We also have experience of voting, the crooked, cash-driven excesses and voting scandals as well as the tightly-run exercises that have increasingly replaced them and wiped them out except in unpredictable pockets where the Election Commission cannot depress its guns sufficiently to bring them to bear. The result is that a vote is possible, and it is on performance (more or less). Nobody is beyond the reach of the electorate; look at what happened to the greatest Indian leaders.

The situation in Pakistan is not like that.None of the four terrorist heads, not Lakhvi, nobody is in an elected position and in control of power. Instead, they are controlled by power-brokers and the power-centres.They are not shielded by an electoral cushion. That is the difference.

PS: Manohar Parrikar may be BJP, but he is anything but a fanatic. How did you get that? Because of his crowing over the recent incidents? That is not what defines a fanatic.

 

[coffee_cup]

It is something that you DO need to care about, for the simple reason that he was powerless to do anything until he became NSA, because that is when policy changed, in 2014. Recall that EVERYTHING that happened before then was conjectural; recall that anything that can be claimed with some credibility by Pakistan against Indian intelligence agencies dates from after 2014. A huge amount of terrorist damage was BEFORE 2014.

Now do you understand what I am telling you?

No sir, I am not accepting it as a plausible justification to spare that fanatic and likes of him. The worst terrorist attack in the history of Pakistan where more than 150 school kids were butchered by Indian sponsored terrorists took place in Dec. 2014. Alone for that Devil and co. should be hanged at least 150 times !!!

Then even though overall terrorism has dropped sharply in Pakistan (Yes, this is due to improved security co-ordination and harder stance taken by our military to tell the world about dual-role India is playing), there have still been heinous terrorist strikes in Pakistan: On Universities, hospitals, funerals, churches, mosques, courts etc. Feel free to google them.

We demand extradition of terrorist master-minds, either you do it or you stop demanding anything from our side.

Who said we can't? Unlike Pakistan, with its skewed and distorted processes and its permanent veto in the hands of the military, we vote, a very real and very significant distinction. We also have experience of voting, the crooked, cash-driven excesses and voting scandals as well as the tightly-run exercises that have increasingly replaced them and wiped them out except in unpredictable pockets where the Election Commission cannot depress its guns sufficiently to bring them to bear. The result is that a vote is possible, and it is on performance (more or less). Nobody is beyond the reach of the electorate; look at what happened to the greatest Indian leaders.

Deeds speak louder, Janab.

How many extremist hindus have you hanged during the last few years? What has happened to extremists such as Modi, Swami, those countless RSS/VHP goons?


Not only many of them have been exonerated with honor, but some of them have been allowed to make it to the top spot in India. If anything it just shows the increasing extremism in Indian society. In today's world, in a working democratic system Hitler or OBL would not have been allowed to contest elections, no matter how popular they might have been among masses! Instead they would have been sent to gallows to die a painful death.

Your judicial process is a farce (yes ours too, before you raise that point), so with all due respect, please come down from your high horse here.

The situation in Pakistan is not like that.None of the four terrorist heads, not Lakhvi, nobody is in an elected position and in control of power. Instead, they are controlled by power-brokers and the power-centres.They are not shielded by an electoral cushion. That is the difference.

Lets not mix oranges with apples here. We are talking about terrorist master-minds actually being in most powerful positions. And not about some foot soldiers (which if I read your post correctly, you are trying to imply about these people by saying "they are "controlled by power-brokers"). You have millions of your own foot soldiers which are being controlled by your power brokers. To top that thousands in Afghanistan, who make up the worst of the terrorist breed one would see around the world.

AND to top that all, power brokers themselves are those fanatic terrorist master-minds who have managed it to become the most powerful people in their country (e.g. PM, DM, NSA, etc etc.)

PS: Manohar Parrikar may be BJP, but he is anything but a fanatic. How did you get that? Because of his crowing over the recent incidents? That is not what defines a fanatic.

Any religious fundamentalist is fanatic for me. And Manohar is one of them. It is your call, what title you want to give him.

 

[Joe Shearer]

No sir, I am not accepting it as a plausible justification to spare that fanatic and likes of him. The worst terrorist attack in the history of Pakistan where more than 150 school kids were butchered by Indian sponsored terrorists took place in Dec. 2014. Alone for that Devil and co. should be hanged at least 150 times !!!

Do you seriously think that someone sitting in Delhi can, within weeks, organise this kind of an attack?

Then even though overall terrorism has dropped sharply in Pakistan (Yes, this is due to improved security co-ordination and harder stance taken by our military to tell the world about dual-role India is playing), there have still been heinous terrorist strikes in Pakistan: On Universities, hospitals, funerals, churches, mosques, courts etc. Feel free to google them.

We demand extradition of terrorist master-minds, either you do it or you stop demanding anything from our side.

Certainly. Which acts of terror? What links? What evidence that a civil court will accept? Would you like to send your prosecuting staff down? We have provided all these; Pakistan has provided NOTHING.

Deeds speak louder, Janab.

How many extremist hindus have you hanged during the last few years? What has happened to extremists such as Modi, Swami, those countless RSS/VHP goons?

Modi has been investigated twice, by the Special Investigation Team appointed by the Supreme Court and reporting only to the Supreme Court, and independently, separately, in parallel, by the amicus curiae to the Supreme Court. Both found that there was insufficient evidence to lodge a case against him.

Swami has never even remotely been involved or connected to any act of terror.

Countless RSS/VHP goons, including ministers of the Gujarat government, have been prosecuted, convicted and jailed. You are insufficiently informed.

Not only many of them have been exonerated with honor, but some of them have been allowed to make it to the top spot in India.

Why did you forget to include mention of those convicted, sentenced and jailed?

If anything it just shows the increasing extremism in Indian society. In today's world, in a working democratic system Hitler or OBL would not have been allowed to contest elections, no matter how popular they might have been among masses! Instead they would have been sent to gallows to die a painful death.

Always possible, subject to due process of law. Without that, it becomes a mob lynching.

Your judicial process is a farce (yes ours too, before you raise that point), so with all due respect, please come down from your high horse here.

I do beg your pardon. It is anything but a farce. It gives us a troubling judgement from time to time, but by and large, it is a formidable system.

Lets not mix oranges with apples here. We are talking about terrorist master-minds actually being in most powerful positions. And not about some foot soldiers (which if I read your post correctly, you are trying to imply about these people by saying "they are "controlled by power-brokers"). You have millions of your own foot soldiers which are being controlled by your power brokers. To top that thousands in Afghanistan, who make up the worst of the terrorist breed one would see around the world.

This is only your own illusion. Illusion, because in the one and a half years that this administration has been in power, it is impossible to build such an apparatus. Ask the ISI; even after thirty years of striving, they still do not have a foolproof system.

AND to top that all, power brokers themselves are those fanatic terrorist master-minds who have managed it to become the most powerful people in their country (e.g. PM, DM, NSA, etc etc.)

Again, you are slinging around names at random. Why do you keep identifying Manohar Parrikar as a terrorist? And why do you refuse to acknowledge the Supreme Court investigation?

Any religious fundamentalist is fanatic for me. And Manohar is one of them. It is your call, what title you want to give him.

For the sake of argument, let us accept your point, although it is grossly wrong. Is a fanatic automatically a terrorist?

 

[coffee_cup]

Do you seriously think that someone sitting in Delhi can, within weeks, organise this kind of an attack?



Certainly. Which acts of terror? What links? What evidence that a civil court will accept? Would you like to send your prosecuting staff down? We have provided all these; Pakistan has provided NOTHING.



Modi has been investigated twice, by the Special Investigation Team appointed by the Supreme Court and reporting only to the Supreme Court, and independently, separately, in parallel, by the amicus curiae to the Supreme Court. Both found that there was insufficient evidence to lodge a case against him.

Swami has never even remotely been involved or connected to any act of terror.

Countless RSS/VHP goons, including ministers of the Gujarat government, have been prosecuted, convicted and jailed. You are insufficiently informed.



Why did you forget to include mention of those convicted, sentenced and jailed?



Always possible, subject to due process of law. Without that, it becomes a mob lynching.



I do beg your pardon. It is anything but a farce. It gives us a troubling judgement from time to time, but by and large, it is a formidable system.



This is only your own illusion. Illusion, because in the one and a half years that this administration has been in power, it is impossible to build such an apparatus. Ask the ISI; even after thirty years of striving, they still do not have a foolproof system.



Again, you are slinging around names at random. Why do you keep identifying Manohar Parrikar as a terrorist? And why do you refuse to acknowledge the Supreme Court investigation?



For the sake of argument, let us accept your point, although it is grossly wrong. Is a fanatic automatically a terrorist?

I was planning to go through your post point by point. But at the end, I think we are just beating around the bush.

Just one thing: Can you see that the basis of your argument to deny that Ajit Devil had any role in terrorism in Pakistan because "he was not in power", is WRONG.?

I have just proven that worst terrorist attacks in Pakistan's history took place after he came to power.

Same can be said by many other arguments you have made (with all due respect).

I think lets just agree to disagree.

You will not accept that fanatics sitting in Indian govt today are themselves terrorist master-minds.

And I'll not accept this argument of yours. I'll keep saying, unless you start from your side by handing over few of those fanatic terrorist master-minds, you have lost any rights to demand any such thing from other countries.


PS: There is Swami in the govt, who was expelled from Harvard for his extremist views. And there is Swami of Samjhota Express who has been exonerated honorably, again due to "lack of evidence". One fanatic is master of planning, the other one is master of execution. How about for a start, you extradite that Swami to Pakistan to break some ice?

 

[Joe Shearer]

I was planning to go through your post point by point. But at the end, I think we are just beating around the bush.

Just one thing: As you can see the basis of your argument that Ajit Devil had no role in terrorism in Pakistan because "he was not in power", is WRONG.

I am not unfamiliar with organising and deploying large numbers of people in clandestine circumstances, although I can assure you that nobody carried anything more lethal than very small electronics packages. First, identify the person. Second, approach him/her so that there is no alarm bell rung. Third, engage the person in discussion. Fourth, close the collaboration, and concretise it. Fifth, offer training. Sixth, deploy.

It isn't what you seem to think it is.

I have just proven that worst terrorist attacks in Pakistan's history took place after he came to power.

And I've just explained why he is unlikely to have had enough time to do anything useful.

I think lets just agree to disagree.

You will not accept that fanatics sitting in Indian govt today are themselves terrorist master-minds.

Not even remotely. And I say that as a confirmed Modi-critic.

And I'll not accept this argument of yours. I'll keep saying, unless you start from your side by handing over few of those fanatic terrorist master-minds, you have lost any rights to demand any such thing from other countries.

That is entirely up to Pakistan. At this stage, it is not difficult to keep Pakistan's somewhat spotted record in the public eye; it is too familiar to people to have to do more than give a suggestion or a hint and have them immediately conclude what they are hoped to conclude.

PS: There is Swami in the govt, who was expelled from Harvard for his extremist views. And there is Swami of Samjhota Express who has been exonerated honorably, again due to "lack of evidence". One fanatic is master of planning, the other one is master of execution. How about for a start, you extradite that Swami to Pakistan to break some ice?

The first Swami has never been involved in planning violence. Period. So planning what, is what you need to ask yourself.

The second Swami was investigated and found not involved in the Samjhauta Express case. He is still under trial in the other cases.

 

[coffee_cup]

I am not unfamiliar with organising and deploying large numbers of people in clandestine circumstances, although I can assure you that nobody carried anything more lethal than very small electronics packages. First, identify the person. Second, approach him/her so that there is no alarm bell rung. Third, engage the person in discussion. Fourth, close the collaboration, and concretise it. Fifth, offer training. Sixth, deploy.

It isn't what you seem to think it is.

I honestly do not know what you are trying to tell me here. May be you want to explain it a little further?

And I've just explained why he is unlikely to have had enough time to do anything useful.

Bhai jan, even if, we accept your logic for argument sake, should I bring Bacha Khan University, Church attacks, Quetta attack on lawyers and countless more that have happened after Devil has master-minded after been well established in the govt? Or will it still not be enough?

That is entirely up to Pakistan. At this stage, it is not difficult to keep Pakistan's somewhat spotted record in the public eye; it is too familiar to people to have to do more than give a suggestion or a hint and have them immediately conclude what they are hoped to conclude.

I accept that our successive govt. have been pathetic in highlighting what should have been highlighted long ago about Indian dual-face i.e. on one hand sponsoring terrorism and on the other hand playing victim card.

But it is never too late.
Pakistan has every right to tell the public, "hey, look things are not as Indians would like you to believe. Quite the contrary".

Why do you think India has the immortal right to bad-mouth Pakistan everywhere and we should not defend?

The first Swami has never been involved in planning violence. Period. So planning what, is what you need to ask yourself.

The second Swami was investigated and found not involved in the Samjhauta Express case. He is still under trial in the other cases.

This is exactly the dilemma that we are facing here. India is letting the fanatical terrorists free on one pretext or the other, because there is "not enough evidence".

It is a common problem in India (and even in the Subcontinent).

Person A sees person B murdering C.

Now the trial begins, Person A mysteriously dies or retracts her statements because her kids could be kidnapped, her family is threatened, the prosecution who is after the trail is replaced with someone who will not seek guilty, the evidence is stolen or burnt and the court has nothing tangible left to punish the culprit (remember courts are just one part of the judicial system).

And the end result? Fanatics are set free to go on becoming PM, DM, whatever...

 

[Joe Shearer]

I honestly do not know what you are trying to tell me here. May be you want to explain it a little further?

Very simply, that it takes time, that it takes years to set up a network. One doesn't go out and buy a Walther PPK and a white carnation. I outlined some of the steps. The whole process would be far more complicated in the case of something clandestine that kills people, and humongously difficult if the 'team' were to be facing certain death.

It couldn't have been done.

Bhai jan, even if, we accept your logic for argument sake, should I bring Bacha Khan University, Church attacks, Quetta attack on lawyers and countless more that have happened after Devil has master-minded after been well established in the govt? Or will it still not be enough?

I never for a moment tried to coerce you into believing what I was saying. Instead, I repeat it here, ask those whom you can access about the time-frames and what might be reasonable. What I have been saying is NOT to bring you to my point of view, but to start you questioning your point of view, and persuade you to start investigating.

I accept that our successive govt. have been pathetic in highlighting what should have been highlighted long ago about Indian dual-face i.e. on one hand sponsoring terrorism and on the other hand playing victim card.

But it is never too late.
Pakistan has every right to tell the public, "hey, look things are not as Indians would like you to believe. Quite the contrary".

Why do you think India has the immortal right to bad-mouth Pakistan everywhere and we should not defend?

It doesn't have that right.

But consider for a moment: suppose the whole wretched Indian story were true.

This is exactly the dilemma that we are facing here. India is letting the fanatical terrorists free on one pretext or the other, because there is "not enough evidence".

As a long-time opponent of Modi, let me tell you that I never thought that he was guilty of murder, or of criminal conspiracy. I thought that he had violated his oath of office, by holding back when a ferocious assault would have quelled the mobs. It was this failure to be tough on the rioters, of waiting too long (after he let them loose, the police took a toll on the rioters, a considerable toll), of not seeing the dangers inherent in the situation.

It is a common problem in India (and even in the Subcontinent).

Person A sees person B murdering C.

Now the trial begins, Person A mysteriously dies or retracts her statements because her kids could be kidnapped, her family is threatened, the prosecution who is after the trail is replaced with someone who will not seek guilty, the evidence is stolen or burnt and the court has nothing tangible left to punish the culprit (remember courts are just one part of the judicial system).

Thanks for the reminder. I've lived in those circumstances. Three years.

And the end result? Fanatics are set free to go on becoming PM, DM, whatever...

Again, a reminder: a fanatic is not a terrorist.

 

[coffee_cup]

Again, a reminder: a fanatic is not a terrorist.

But many a time, such as in this case, master-mind of terrorists. Which is worst than foot soldiers who do the actual act..




And sorry, if I don't buy into "harmless espionage" being the only thing Devil had ever done while being RAW head.

We have seen how RAW financed/armed/trained Mukti Bahini, LTTE.

And continuously doing it now for BLA and TTP.

RAW or its head are not that "harmless spy" you would like us to believe.

 

[Joe Shearer]

But a master-mind of terrorists. Which is worst than foot soldiers who do the actual act..




And sorry, if I don't buy into "harmless espionage" being the only thing Devil had ever done while being RAW head.

We have seen how RAW financed/armed/trained Mukti Bahini, LTTE.

And continuously doing it now for BLA and TTP.

RAW or its head are not that "harmless spy" you would like us to believe.

That is why I keep asking for you fire-eaters to read up. You will find that R&W was very active at the outset, but was banned from violence under Gujral and fell into a coma. It was Modi who ordered its revival.

 

[coffee_cup]

That is why I keep asking for you fire-eaters to read up. You will find that R&W was very active at the outset, but was banned from violence under Gujral and fell into a coma. It was Modi who ordered its revival.

And from Pakistan's PoV, Modi, Devil, Manohar and many fanatic master-minds of terrorism have lost any right to complain about being victim.

For people like those fanatics: "You play with fire and should prepare yourself when chickens come back home to roost. Either stop, or don't whine".

 

[Joe Shearer]

And from Pakistan's PoV, Modi, Devil, Manohar and many fanatic master-minds of terrorism have lost any right to complain about being victim.

For people like those fanatics: "You play with fire and should prepare yourself when chickens come back home to roost. Either stop, or don't whine".

Why? They aren't asking on their own behalf. You would be justified in turning them down, perhaps, if they were making personal requests,