When Islamic atheism thrived

[v9s]

6. does the writer believe in God? yes but not the Prophet (pbuh) as according to him (Naozobillah) Prophets can make mistakes.. right? who told him about the God, the Prophet, but if Prophet can make mistakes he can make a mistake in telling you about God as well, cant he? so you only are left with two choices either believe in God and his Prophet (pbuh) or dont believe in God at all!!

The Quran is INFALLIBLE while NO MAN IS, Not Muhammad, not Jesus, not Moses.

God commands the prophet in the Quran to say that he is infallible in the revelation he delivers, but that he may commit errors in his personal words and hadith:

"Say:If I err , I err because of my shortcomings, and if I am rightly guided it is due to the revelation I receive from my Lord" 34:50

There are 6 incidents in the Quran where the prophet is reprimanded by God, for errors he committed (These 6 incidents are found in verses 8:67-68, 9:43, 9:113-114, 33:37, 66:1, 80:1-11):

[8:67] No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[8:68] If it were not for a predetermined decree from GOD, you would have suffered, on account of what you took, a terrible retribution.

[9:43] GOD has pardoned you: why did you give them permission (to stay behind), before you could distinguish those who are truthful from the liars?

[9:113] Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshipers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realize that they are destined for Hell.
[9:114] The only reason Abraham asked forgiveness for his father was that he had promised him to do so. But as soon as he realized that he was an enemy of GOD, he disowned him. Abraham was extremely kind, clement.

[33:37] Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, "Keep your wife and reverence GOD," and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD. When Zeid was completely through with his wife, we had you marry her, in order to establish the precedent that a man can marry the divorced wife of his adopted son. GOD's commands shall be done.

[66:1] O you prophet, why do you prohibit what GOD has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

[80:1] He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
[80:2] When the blind man came to him.
[80:3] How do you know? He may purify himself.
[80:4] Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.
[80:5] As for the rich man.
[80:6] You gave him your attention.
[80:7] Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.
[80:8] The one who came to you eagerly.
[80:9] And is really reverent.
[80:10] You ignored him.
[80:11] Indeed, this is a reminder.

 

[v9s]

On the Qur'an, Razi said:

"You claim that the evidentiary miracle is present and available, namely, the Koran. You say: "Whoever denies it, let him produce a similar one." Indeed, we shall produce a thousand similar, from the works of rhetoricians, eloquent speakers and valiant poets, which are more appropriately phrased and state the issues more succinctly. They convey the meaning better and their rhymed prose is in better meter. ... By God what you say astonishes us! You are talking about a work which recounts ancient myths, and which at the same time is full of contradictions and does not contain any useful information or explanation. Then you say: "Produce something like it"?!"​

Razi seems to have ego issues here.

The Quran has NO CONTRADICTIONS. Show me any contradiction and i'll prove you wrong.

 

[Hyde]

For God Sake peoples,

Do not discuss Religion in this forum. It doesn't look good when you so-called scholars uttering your Bullshit without any knowledge of Islam

Just live in your own dreams of fantasies - do not try to portray Islam as per your own wishes

Have some respect of God - Have some Fear of God - Have some fear of God please

 

[v9s]

where as bible was written 100 years or so after jesus's death. bible has many authors in the first place forget the interpretations, as many islamic scholars have pointed out that the bible even today keeps changing, its the will of the christian clerics as to erase some verse which dont go parallel for the needs of the present age and to add some verse which were never written before.

Funny you should say that. Traditionalist muslims accept that the Bible was written 100 years or so after jesus's death and hence cannot be accepted as religious source, YET these muslims accept hadith and sunnah as religious source EVEN THOUGH Prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his hadith (this is documented in Muslim and other books):

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....Sahih Muslim)

and as such, for the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was forbidden, in accordance with his commands, but along comes Al-Bukhari, the first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 198 After Hijrah..........does that make you think????)

Even if we were to follow the hadith, how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be???

Kind of hypocritical of traditionalist muslims.

 

[Hyde]

Oh please!

Can somebody close this thread please? - Thanks in advance

And please either delete my post along with the above (quoted) - or close thread with my post also - He has forced me start religious thread again - otherwise i was not in a mood of starting again

Funny you should say that. Traditionalist muslims accept that the Bible was written 100 years or so after jesus's death and hence cannot be accepted as religious source,

Wrong - Thats around 325 years

YET these muslims accept hadith and sunnah as religious source EVEN THOUGH Prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his hadith (this is documented in Muslim and other books):

Wrong - Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself used to instruct peoples to write his words and Sahabas used to write his teachings. Whatever important speech he used to give - he used to repeat three times so that everybody should understand clearly - and Sahabas used to write it down.

Its a well known fact and i believe almost all Muslims sects agree to this statement (except those who does not believe in Hadeeth at all)

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....Sahih Muslim)

Wrong again - Its a famous Hadeeth and you are misinterperating this Hadeeth

Please read this link Stages of Recording Hadith - Reading Islam.com

and as such, for the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was forbidden, in accordance with his commands, but along comes Al-Bukhari, the first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 198 After Hijrah..........does that make you think????)

Wrong again - Have you never heard the name of Imam Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Hanbal? Have you not heard the name of Imam Bukhari's teacher? Have you not heard the name of Muslim Ibn- al Hajjaj? or have you not heard the name of Nahj al-Balagha? oh well its a long list - all books written before Imam Bukhari

Even if we were to follow the hadith, how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be???

Kind of hypocritical of traditionalist muslims.

Hadeeth are the teachings of the Prophet - I don't want to start about the importance of ahadeeth - and i agree there can be some fake ahadees - indirectly claimed to be Prophet's words - but it does not mean you discredit other millions of sayings of the Prophet. If you reject Hadeeth you cannot perform any Islamic ritual whatsoever. You cannot find out how to pray, you cannot find out how to perform hajj, you cannot find out how much to pay in Zakat. You will be contradicting with all the basic foundations of Islam (The pillars of Islam) and then start about daily lives.

Qur'an gives you the guidance and most of the times it gives you hints - that you require ahadeeth for more details. It talks about a certain issue but the whole detail you get from the ahadees. It is true there cannot be any book in the world that cannot be changed except the The Holy Qur'an which is intact since the first day. But at the same point Hadeeth are very helpful source to understand the Islam. You cannot - oh forget it - stupid thread

MODS please close

My last post here

 

[U-571]

Funny you should say that. Traditionalist muslims accept that the Bible was written 100 years or so after jesus's death and hence cannot be accepted as religious source, YET these muslims accept hadith and sunnah as religious source EVEN THOUGH Prophet Muhammad himself commanded his people not to write his hadith (this is documented in Muslim and other books):

"Do not write down anything of me except the Quran. Whoever writes other than that should delete it" (Ahmed, Vol. 1, page 171.....Sahih Muslim)

and as such, for the first 150 years to 200 years after the death of the prophet the writing of his hadith was forbidden, in accordance with his commands, but along comes Al-Bukhari, the first one to document a comprehensive collection of hadith (Note that Al-Bukhari was born in the year 198 After Hijrah..........does that make you think????)

Even if we were to follow the hadith, how accurate can a collection of sayings documented two centuries after the death of the prophet be???

Kind of hypocritical of traditionalist muslims.

and you seem very intelligent to quote from sahih muslim its self and then say that ooh, prophet just said not to quote him.

as far as the quotes meaning is concerned, it can have many meanings, like dont go write about him other than the matters related to quran, dont write about him in such a way that the taboo of worshipping the prophets comes true to his followers too. quran says to follow prophet muhammad, his seerat, what he did and what explanation he gave, if there was no written document on him like the books of hadits then how come muslim can follow him?? prophet used to tell what he said to the sahabas not once, or twice but thrice so that they could remember what he said, the quotations of sahih bukhari or muslim come from the direct documents written by sahabs themselves and the care was taken as to mention which hadits had a weak link or which hadits which cannot be considered to be the exact words of prophets and hadits which are strongly recommended by sahabs to be the exact word of the prophet.

i am argueing that the holy bible was itself written after a long time of the death of prophet isa, but quran was written in the days of prophet muhammad, dont you get the simple point, can status of hadiths be compared to the bible in the first place??

as far as my knowledge goes, quran verses was slowly given to the prophet on the exact circumstances so that the apprearance of certain events and his deed would make the sabahs learn from his living example and this is the whole purpose of sunnah.

 

[Peregrine]

For God Sake peoples,

Have some respect of God - Have some Fear of God - Have some fear of God please

Hi
those (atheists) who don't believe in his existence will definitely fear him

However it's really funny this is Pakistan defense forum. and most of the threads are like this Islam disrespecting women's rights by preaching Purdah, can Pakistan be secular, why is Pakistan producing jihadis(terrorists) & this master piece Islamic Atheism . Irony we cannot contain the propaganda generated in our own backyard how do we expect to counter the western propaganda

 

[KS]

hi
you are right its your personal faith. but the belief in existence of God is also the personal faith of billions of Muslims, Christians & Jews. who have to face the so called factual knowledge of miss Emo Girl

Hi..the points Emo raised..I dont care...Its ur religion..ur belief...U guys argue among urselves...I will not intervene in an area i know nothing of.

But the i interjected only because some member started abusing our gods.

Carry on with ur discussion.

 

[Hyde]

Hi
those (atheists) who don't believe in his existence will definitely fear him

However it's really funny this is Pakistan defense forum. and most of the threads are like this Islam disrespecting women's rights by preaching Purdah, can Pakistan be secular, why is Pakistan producing jihadis(terrorists) & this master piece Islamic Atheism . Irony we cannot contain the propaganda generated in our own backyard how do we expect to counter the western propaganda

some peoples wants MASALA thread - and what can be a better topic than disgracing our beautiful religion Islam?

Peoples are so confused here - i find it funny sometimes but i feel like crying when i see confused peoples in this forum twisting Ahadees or giving their own opinion calling it ISLAMIC. Its sick - if i was the MOD i would be banning everybody whoever used the word ISLAM and Opinion, TTP, Jihad, Secularism, Athiesm in the same sentance of their post in this forum

Peoples claim something to be Islamic where in fact it has nothing to do with Islam

 

[KS]

---EDIT AS PER ZAKI REQUEST-------

 

[Hyde]

@ U571 and Karthic Sri

Remove/delete your posts before MODs/Admins join the show or expect straight ban without warning

They don't see Seniority U571...... you have abused.... you are gonnai regret otherwise - delete it

 

[KS]

you stupid arse, when did i say specifically you, i said you people cant you read in the first place???

go to other topics and find hindus in general comment on our religion matters there..

Im going easy on u just because a senior member(not just in posts) requested me....Dont think ur right

 

[KS]

@Zaki

Is this how u guys treat other religions..? nd with this the forum rules gone with the wind.

and what do you mean by that... if you are so pissed off, let me say it once more, hanuman, the monkey god lol..

May the lord forgive u.

P.S.:I can easily go down to a lower level and start insulting ur religious figures,but my level of Upbringing forbids it as i ve been taught to respect all religions.

 

[billi]

@Zaki

Is this how u guys treat other religions..? nd with this the forum rules gone with the wind.



May the lord forgive u.

P.S.:I can easily go down to a lower level and start insulting ur religious figures,but my level of Upbringing forbids it as i ve been taught to respect all religions.

they abuse their own religion by saying these things. they claim that their religion teaches them to respect other religions. So by saying such things either:
1. muslims lie that their religion respects other religions
or.
2. u-571 is so ignorant that he has not learnt anything from his religion and as of now cannot be called a muslim.

 

[VrSoLdIeRs]

The Quran is INFALLIBLE while NO MAN IS, Not Muhammad, not Jesus, not Moses.

God commands the prophet in the Quran to say that he is infallible in the revelation he delivers, but that he may commit errors in his personal words and hadith:

"Say:If I err , I err because of my shortcomings, and if I am rightly guided it is due to the revelation I receive from my Lord" 34:50

There are 6 incidents in the Quran where the prophet is reprimanded by God, for errors he committed (These 6 incidents are found in verses 8:67-68, 9:43, 9:113-114, 33:37, 66:1, 80:1-11):

[8:67] No prophet shall acquire captives, unless he participates in the fighting. You people are seeking the materials of this world, while GOD advocates the Hereafter. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.
[8:68] If it were not for a predetermined decree from GOD, you would have suffered, on account of what you took, a terrible retribution.

[9:43] GOD has pardoned you: why did you give them permission (to stay behind), before you could distinguish those who are truthful from the liars?

[9:113] Neither the prophet, nor those who believe shall ask forgiveness for the idol worshipers, even if they were their nearest of kin, once they realize that they are destined for Hell.
[9:114] The only reason Abraham asked forgiveness for his father was that he had promised him to do so. But as soon as he realized that he was an enemy of GOD, he disowned him. Abraham was extremely kind, clement.

[33:37] Recall that you said to the one who was blessed by GOD, and blessed by you, "Keep your wife and reverence GOD," and you hid inside yourself what GOD wished to proclaim. Thus, you feared the people, when you were supposed to fear only GOD. When Zeid was completely through with his wife, we had you marry her, in order to establish the precedent that a man can marry the divorced wife of his adopted son. GOD's commands shall be done.

[66:1] O you prophet, why do you prohibit what GOD has made lawful for you, just to please your wives? GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.

[80:1] He (Muhammad) frowned and turned away.
[80:2] When the blind man came to him.
[80:3] How do you know? He may purify himself.
[80:4] Or he may take heed, and benefit from the message.
[80:5] As for the rich man.
[80:6] You gave him your attention.
[80:7] Even though you could not guarantee his salvation.
[80:8] The one who came to you eagerly.
[80:9] And is really reverent.
[80:10] You ignored him.
[80:11] Indeed, this is a reminder.

thats the reason they ask you to read 'tafseer'... i hate spoon feeding people

here is tafseer of the first ayah you provided!!!!

http://www.scholaris.com/pdf/quran/034%20Surah%20Saba.pdf

http://www.faizaneattar.net/AL-QURAN/Surah/34-Surah_Saba/628.jpg

for the rest please bother your own self n search!!!!