What's next warship designs for Vietnam Navy in future?

[70U63]

Not sure you are serious...
Small nation with limited resources, you suggest them to buy destroyers (??)
Construct more corvettes or bigger patrol vessels will be better option.

2 destroyers could serve as the command ships for the Vietnamese Navy. And I agree with you that a direct confrontation is never and should never be a strategy , but focused on defense and surveillance. Vietnamese maritime concerns also needs to focus on her southern flank, and excessive concern on China is taking resources necessary for her southern quadrant.

 

[Carlosa]

2 destroyers could serve as the command ships for the Vietnamese Navy. And I agree with you that a direct confrontation is never and should never be a strategy , but focused on defense and surveillance. Vietnamese maritime concerns also needs to focus on her southern flank, and excessive concern on China is taking resources necessary for her southern quadrant.

A confrontation with China is close to 0% now, and Vietnam should take advantage of this by adding more heavy surface fleet ships. Afterall, i am in the position that a considerable naval force is as much as a deterrent to conflict as much as it will increase surveillance and situational awareness for one's territory.

Future anti-piracy responsibilities outside Southeast Asia / Pacific should also be considered. Vietnam as well as many nations in Southeast Asia need to look beyond their direct spheres. Especially as their economies expand.

I respect your opinion, but I think its the other way around, VN needs many small ships that are affordable and pack a good anti ship punch, Molniya types are difficult to detect, they mixed themselves with the waves and become very difficult to detect until they are very close, air defense frigates can do the command, destroyers are way to expensive for the limited budget of Vietnam, if anything, put that money into subs and aircraft with good supersonic anti ship missiles. Aircraft are the equalizers, they can sink anything and from a stand off distance. Destroyers are unlikely to escape detection.

Of course if there is extra money, can have destroyers, but lets face it, they are going to be sitting ducks. Any air defense destroyer would be easy to overwhelm and destroy by china, thats why even whole American carrier battle groups don't want to operate closer than 1000 km from china's coastline. VN uses the same strategy, but they don't have all the assets yet.

VN has no threats in the southern flank other than china anyway.

Zero chance today and tomorrow you can have another oil rig or something else, it was also looking like zero chance before the oil rig; there is no such thing as zero chance with china.

or maybe fast missile boats armed with sophisticated radar and anti-ship missiles could hide well between Spratly rocks. Hit and run tactics.

Yes, except that can't hide anything behind those rocks, they are way too small and there are too many chinese satellites. Small ships can hide behind the waves in rough weather.

Its not easy to hide for surface ships these days. Subs can do it.

more than destroyer, Vietnam need OTHT platform like MPA and ASW aircraft. ASW helo is fine though their number (currently in Vietnam services) and endurance is insufficient to covering the large swath of South China Sea

That's what I've been saying for a while. And more aircraft. Too many ships on order and not enough aircraft even that the aircraft are the ones that can safely do the job, ships are of very limited use in a war with china, still need them, but they are very limited.

 

[BoQ77]

put aside the "nuke" what is the most useful weapon work as war detergent for Vietnam?
subs ? mini-subs in large quantity ? long range supersonic cruise missiles launched from coast / air / surface platform ?

December 2, 2011: South Korea is replacing two elderly 250 ton Italian mini-submarines (from the 1980s) with the locally designed KSS 500A. This is a 510 ton, 37 meter (115 foot) long, 4.5 meter (14 foot) diameter boat. It cruises at 12 kilometers an hour (for up to 21 days) and can hit a top speed of about 36 kilometers an hour. Maximum dive depth is 250 meters (775 feet). Meant for coastal operations, the 500A would be useful against (xxx deleted xxx)
Each 500A can carry two heavy and four light torpedoes. There is also space for some mines and vertical launched missiles. The boat also has accommodations for 14 commandos and the capacity for them to use scuba gear to leave the sub while submerged.
The submarines crew consists of ten sailors, and all power is carried in lithium-ion batteries.

HHI Hyundai : KSS-500A mini subs – Source: thaiarmedforce.com

 

[Carlosa]

put aside the "nuke" what is the most useful weapon work as war detergent for Vietnam?
subs ? mini-subs in large quantity ? long range supersonic cruise missiles launched from coast / air / surface platform ?

Yes, and I would say, this small sub, SMX-26 submarine (French), designed for the shallow waters of the SCS.

DCNS unveils a new submarine concept at Euronaval 2012: The SMX-26

DCNS presents for the first time at Euronaval 2012 its new small size submarine optimized for shallow waters operations.

SMX 26 is a small submarine designed to operate in very shallow water - up to 15 m depth in coastal areas where no submarine operates conventionally.

It has extreme maneuverability and a vertical dynamic stability near the bottom or under surface waves thanks to its two shaft lines and its four adjustable and retractable azimuth thrusters.

The SMX-26 has the unique ability to "land" very quickly on all types of seabeds with its extendable wheels. It can then stay lurking in the bottom for up to 30 days.

In such situation, air and data communication is provided through flexible pipes deployed towards the surface.

SMX-26 may deploy the following: 6 Special Forces divers, 20 mm canon mast, self-defense anti-aircraft missile (in container), two heavy torpedoes and eight light torpedo with heavy warheads.

Capable of enduring long periods and conducting missions in water less than 15m deep, the SMX 26 features two shaft lines, four steerable and retractable azimuth thrusters to provide extreme manoeuvrability, as well as ability to maintain steady position near the bottom.

As well as its long discreet surveillance capability, the SMX 26 is equipped with an extendable wheeled undercarriage system to enable quick landing on all types of sea bed and deploying hoses to the surface for air and power.

The SMX 26 is integrated with sensors to support missions, including six special forces divers deployed during a dive or at the surface to identify moving targets.

The new submarine is armed with two mast-mounted weapon systems, with a 20mm cannon and a missile launch container for anti-aircraft self-defence, as well as two heavyweight and eight lightweight torpedoes with heavy warheads.

A new anti-aircraft self-defence weapon system for submarines has also been introduced by the company, aimed to help navies to protect their vessels against airborne threats worldwide.

The new defence system forces aircraft to remain at a standoff distance from submarines and has been developed in two versions by DCNS and MBDA, featuring a mast-mounted anti-aircraft self-defence system and a self-defence system with an undersea vehicle (UUV).

Integrated within the Subtics combat system, the mast-mounted anti-aircraft self- defence system features a retractable mast to support a turret, which comprises several Mistral short range missiles; whereas the UUV is equipped with a Mica medium-range missile.

put aside the "nuke" what is the most useful weapon work as war detergent for Vietnam?
subs ? mini-subs in large quantity ? long range supersonic cruise missiles launched from coast / air / surface platform ?

Yes, all of those, surface ships are the last priority for Vietnam actually.

 

[NarThoD]

put aside the "nuke" what is the most useful weapon work as war detergent for Vietnam?
subs ? mini-subs in large quantity ? long range supersonic cruise missiles launched from coast / air / surface platform ?

December 2, 2011: South Korea is replacing two elderly 250 ton Italian mini-submarines (from the 1980s) with the locally designed KSS 500A. This is a 510 ton, 37 meter (115 foot) long, 4.5 meter (14 foot) diameter boat. It cruises at 12 kilometers an hour (for up to 21 days) and can hit a top speed of about 36 kilometers an hour. Maximum dive depth is 250 meters (775 feet). Meant for coastal operations, the 500A would be useful against (xxx deleted xxx)
Each 500A can carry two heavy and four light torpedoes. There is also space for some mines and vertical launched missiles. The boat also has accommodations for 14 commandos and the capacity for them to use scuba gear to leave the sub while submerged.
The submarines crew consists of ten sailors, and all power is carried in lithium-ion batteries.

HHI Hyundai : KSS-500A mini subs – Source: thaiarmedforce.com

I heard Thailand also being offered this subs. But in my personal opinion, Land and Air warfare will dominating Vietnam - China war, while PLAN will blocking supplies from the sea and their subs scattered in depth. Navy is good but Vietnam should spend more on its Army and Air defence.systems.

 

[BoQ77]

smx 26 is a great sub

 

[kaku1]

Vietnam should try to get their hands on Kolkata Class

I dont think there is any requirements of big sisters in VN, even of heavy frigate like Shivalik.

A 2000-4000 tonne frigate would serve the purpose in VN.

The MF / STAR was specifically designed for Barak 8. The Israelis swear that's the best naval SAM (for that range) and they consider the MF / STAR the best air defense radar in the world, even better than AEGIS (their word). They designed the whole system in order to defeat the Yakhont missiles that Syria has and they are very happy with the testing of the system.

You know, Barak 8 has this incredible minimum range of just 500 meters that is outstanding, dual way data link, etc. Its a really good system, I know Aster is good, but I think Barak 8 is tops and later on Barak 8 ER with 150 km range.

One more advantage of Barak-8 is that it able to make sharp turns,,means uptp 80g.

 

[Carlosa]

I dont think there is any requirements of big sisters in VN, even of heavy frigate like Shivalik.

A 2000-4000 tonne frigate would serve the purpose in VN.

Totally right, that's what I keep saying, a beefed up Sigma with MF / STAR and Barak 8 will do, that's a medium frigate but has the firepower of a light destroyer.

Destroyers are not only expensive to buy (over 1 billion usd) but are also expensive to operate and maintain. Vietnam is not Japan.

 

[BoQ77]

Totally right, that's what I keep saying, a beefed up Sigma with MF / STAR and Barak 8 will do, that's a medium frigate but has the firepower of a destroyer.

Destroyers are not only expensive to buy (over 1 billion usd) but are also expensive to operate and maintain. Vietnam is not Japan.

Destroyers aren't useless, but, I agree, its time would be after Vietnam has enough of medium frigate, fast attack missile boats.

 

[Carlosa]

One more advantage of Barak-8 is that it able to make sharp turns,,means uptp 80g.

80gs is really nice, have to admit, the Israelis are top when it comes to air defense, Iron Dome, Barak 8, Spyder (with a version of MF / STAR on top of it), Magic wand / David's sling, Arrow 3.

if you have a combo of those systems, there is no need for S-400, the Israeli systems are better, look at Magic wand / David's sling:
400 km range
50 km altitude range (that's a lot, S-400 just 27 km)
Missile with dual seeker, infrared and active radar seeker, that's unique, try to escape from that.
Speed of mach 7.5, yes 7.5 (4.5 for Aster 30)

By the way, one limitation / vulnerability of S-300 / 400 systems (also for the Patriot system) that nobody talks about is that since all their missiles are guided by fire control radars and a fire control radar is very directional (just a 90 degree angle), if an S-300 / 400 battery is under attack, its very easy to destroy it, just need to send missiles that attack from all directions and the fire control radar can't handle that, it can only handle one direction and there is usually just 1 fire control radar per battery. That's why Vietnam had to buy Pantsir S1 systems, those are mainly used just to protect those batteries, same in Russia.

Barak 8 and Aster 30 on the other hand, they handle a 360 degree angle, those systems don't use fire control radars, those missiles have autonomous radar seekers that home into the target after launch.

Destroyers aren't useless, but, I agree, its time would be after Vietnam has enough of medium frigate, fast attack missile boats.

Its all a matter of money, if Vietnam were to be like a Japan, then by all means it should have a lot of destroyers and it would have a chance of achieving naval superiority in the SCS, but since Vietnam is not Japan, then it has to concentrate on what it works and watch the money.

From my perspective, its not worth it to buy the third batch of Gepards, those are not good enough and will be very expensive if they have the Shtil system. Actually, I think the whole Gepard program is a mistake, VN should it have gone for Sigmas much earlier, they took forever to negotiate the contract. If they were to have started at the same time as Indonesia, then by now VN would it have a few Sigmas and it would also be making them under license.

I heard Thailand also being offered this subs. But in my personal opinion, Land and Air warfare will dominating Vietnam - China war, while PLAN will blocking supplies from the sea and their subs scattered in depth. Navy is good but Vietnam should spend more on its Army and Air defence.systems.

Land warfare I very much doubt it, I don't think the chinese want to try another one like in 1979. The current disputes can result in a naval / air conflict that can extend into attacking land bases at the most.

Naval, air, air defense, coastal missile batteries and possibly ballistic missiles is what its needed.

VN is spending plenty in air defense and radar networks actually, including systems optimized to detect stealth aircraft, but I think VN is getting behind in terms of aircraft.

The other very important element also is to have a whole ecosystem for stand off surveillance and targeting.

 

[BoQ77]

@Carlosa : you may remember that just few months ago, US lift ban partially of lethal weapon sale to Vietnam.
It doesn't happen 6 years ago. We expect to get more change in US policy.

Then it's time to hunt for sale off.

EADS decided to send the General Correspondence based on the fact that the planes incorporate U.S.-origin ITAR-listed items and knowing that USG policy toward Vietnam is to approve such export licenses on a case-by-case basis.

EADS assured Post that in the event the sale falls through or negotiations go beyond 48 months, the company would advise its suppliers (including Eaton Aerospace Vickers Systems) and ensure that the Department is notified. EADS CASA further understands Federal Register Notice Vol. 72, No. 63 prohibitions on the exports of components for lethal defense articles destined for Vietnam.

Cable: 10MADRID60_a

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa : you may remember that just few months ago, US lift ban partially of lethal weapon sale to Vietnam.
It doesn't happen 6 years ago. We expect to get more change in US policy.

Then it's time to hunt for sale off.





Cable: 10MADRID60_a

Interesting. This explains the delays. I used to read in the Spanish press that the original order for the C-295 was for 6 aircraft and that for some reason was not being worked on; later it was reduced to 3 aircraft.

I'm expecting a full lifting of the embargo sometime this year.

smx 26 is a great sub

Very nice video, isn't that sub great? I can't believe that nobody ordered it yet. Its just perfect for the Splatlys area..

 

[Penguin]

Vietnam version of Sigma-class:
2,150 ton
Length: 99.91m
Beam: 14.02m
Draught: 3.75

Interesting, the plaque read Sigma 9814, suggesting length 98m beam 14, but this doesn't correspond to the measurements (100m x 14m)

 

[Penguin]

When it comes to anti ship punch per ton, the Nanuchka is tops, absolutely tops.

Just a signle trial vessel thus fitted though ...

I don't think they changed the anti ship missiles at all.

The Barak 8 goes in the same place as the Barak 1 but they can only fit 16 because they can only use the deeper center line of the ship.
.

Well, the Isreali's never mounted the combined fit of 8 Gabrial and 8 Harpoon together (although the design does have room for both sets) . Mostly they carried only Harpoon.

There were 2x 32 cell VLS, one forward of the bridge and one in the superstructure by the stack. That latter VLS was alrready out of use, and often you see a satcom antenna placed there.

I suspect those 16 Barak 8 are in the forward launch area.

Barak (right) compared to Barak-8 (left). Barak 8 ER is Barak 8 with boosterstage attached.

 

[Carlosa]

Interesting, the plaque read Sigma 9814, suggesting length 98m beam 14, but this doesn't correspond to the measurements (100m x 14m)

Yes, this is one case where they don't follow their usual rule for numbers, I have no idea why.

I suspect those 16 Barak 8 are in the forward launch area.

I think so.