What's next warship designs for Vietnam Navy in future?

[Penguin]

Actually this is a Barak-1 depiction. For a Barak-8 depiction see http://www.iai.co.il/Sip_Storage//FILES/4/40344.pdf

 

[BoQ77]

Interesting. This explains the delays. I used to read in the Spanish press that the original order for the C-295 was for 6 aircraft and that for some reason was not being worked on; later it was reduced to 3 aircraft.

I'm expecting a full lifting of the embargo sometime this year.


Very nice video, isn't that sub great? I can't believe that nobody ordered it yet. Its just perfect for the Splatlys area..

Because that's a very new, unproven mini sub, although the design look very attractive.
As you know, Vietnam always put money on trustful designs.

 

[BoQ77]

I wonder to know how this design ( based on Damen 9014 OPV ) could be adapt to Navy usage ? currently use for Coast Guard and Fishery Surveillance.

OPV optimised for military security, safety and humanitarian task

Vietnam built this domestically

 

[Viet]

2 destroyers could serve as the command ships for the Vietnamese Navy. And I agree with you that a direct confrontation is never and should never be a strategy , but focused on defense and surveillance. Vietnamese maritime concerns also needs to focus on her southern flank, and excessive concern on China is taking resources necessary for her southern quadrant.

A confrontation with China is close to 0% now, and Vietnam should take advantage of this by adding more heavy surface fleet ships. Afterall, i am in the position that a considerable naval force is as much as a deterrent to conflict as much as it will increase surveillance and situational awareness for one's territory.

Future anti-piracy responsibilities outside Southeast Asia / Pacific should also be considered. Vietnam as well as many nations in Southeast Asia need to look beyond their direct spheres. Especially as their economies expand.

he he he...at least you are the one who agrees with me. in my opinion, our navy should have at least a fleet of 6 multirole destroyers. we should build up the fleet piece by piece, to fit our money pocket, 2 destroyers are a good start.

but @Carlosa is right: increasing the number of subs has more priority.

 

[BoQ77]

Interesting, since they (the Vietnamese) DID take the smaller 1241.8 Molnya/Tarantul.
Displacement: 480 long tons (488 t) standard, 540 long tons (549 t) full load
Length: 56.0 m (183.7 ft)
Beam: 10.5 m (34.4 ft)
Draught: 2.5 m (8.2 ft

@Carlosa I wish next gen of missile boat would be this baby, rumor said that the cost similar to Gepard class, but I hope it would be slightly higher than Molniya.

1230.1 is the variant with Onyx/Yakhont
Onyx was tested first as "P-100 Bolide" , planned to arm the "Project 12300 Skorpion" Corvettes which will carry 4 of it .

The Skorpion had a displacement of 470 tons. The Skorpion had a top speed of 40 knots and a range of 2,000 nautical miles. The boat was to feature many other innovations which would enhance the boat's survivability, habitability, and weapon control automation.

The new corvette had gunnery and missile systems that were unique to a ship of its class. The Skorpion was equipped with four vertical transport and launch pods with the Yakhont supersonic anti-ship missile, having a range of up to 300 km. These missiles, like those of the Moskit-E system, had no analogs in the world. Its main advantage was the speed of supersonic flight, which makes the missile demonstrated low vulnerability to enemy air defenses. "Yakhont" has a range of 300 kilometers, the warhead weight - 200 kg.

The boat was the world's first to be armed with a 100 mm A-190E lightweight gun mount, and two Kashtan-1 gunnery systems for self-defence against close-range attacks from anti-ship missiles or air power. For air defense in the near-zone, that is, at a distance of 6.5 kilometers, was the anti-aircraft missile and artillery system "Kashtan-1." The ship was equipped with an active three-axis radar total detection of surface and air targets "Positive-ME1." It can detect at a distance of 150 km, and maintain up to 50 targets simultaneously, provides a classification and issuance of dual targeting fire control systems.

Management was carried out missile firing radar "Harpoon-B" 3C-25E. The active channel the station uses a complex modulated signal, which has the ability, working surface layer, the envelope surface of the earth. Thus, the detection range, depending on the conditions radionablyudaemosti up to 250 km, and in the tests in the Indian Ocean, as told Yuri Arsenyev was obtained distance of 400 km. Thus, the "Scorpion" was the-horizon targeting capability on board, without using any external systems.

As for operations, the "Scorpion", according to Yuri Arsenyev, would be very economical. If cruising range missile boat the previous generation of "Lightning" ( Molniya class), having on board 104 tons of fuel, was 2,200 miles, the "Scorpion" with 64 tons of fuel had a power reserve of 2,500 miles when driving at economic speed of 12 knots. The boat has a combined power plant, consisting of two diesel engines for propulsion and navigation modes of the gas turbine GT-12, intended for release on the rate of interception. GTU-12 drives a ventilated waterjets, designed in CMDB "Almaz". It consists of a shell, which operates at high speed semisubmerged screw. To improve its seaworthiness, the boat was equipped with a set of automatically controlled interceptors capable of reducing rolling motions by a factor of 2 or 3 [other sources say the level of roll of the boat was reduced 5-fold].

 

[Penguin]

VYMPEL Shipyard JSC » SCORPION MISSILE / GUN BOAT Project 12300
Project 12300 «Scorpion»: Missile-artillery boat
Project 12300 «Scorpion»: Missile-artillery boat derivative

 

[BoQ77]

2 destroyers could serve as the command ships for the Vietnamese Navy. And I agree with you that a direct confrontation is never and should never be a strategy , but focused on defense and surveillance. Vietnamese maritime concerns also needs to focus on her southern flank, and excessive concern on China is taking resources necessary for her southern quadrant.

A confrontation with China is close to 0% now, and Vietnam should take advantage of this by adding more heavy surface fleet ships. Afterall, i am in the position that a considerable naval force is as much as a deterrent to conflict as much as it will increase surveillance and situational awareness for one's territory.

Future anti-piracy responsibilities outside Southeast Asia / Pacific should also be considered. Vietnam as well as many nations in Southeast Asia need to look beyond their direct spheres. Especially as their economies expand.

We hope that next heavy frigate would be built domestically, after that maybe destroyers. Who knows.
If Vietnam goes for Sigma, then the heavy frigate would be seen soon.

Destroyers only come to Vietnam early if there's a big sale off or donation of used destroyers. In near future, Vietnam would not buy brand new destroyers.

 

[Carlosa]

@Carlosa I wish next gen of missile boat would be this baby, rumor said that the cost similar to Gepard class, but I hope it would be slightly higher than Molniya.

1230.1 is the variant with Onyx/Yakhont
Onyx was tested first as "P-100 Bolide" , planned to arm the "Project 12300 Skorpion" Corvettes which will carry 4 of it .

The Skorpion had a displacement of 470 tons. The Skorpion had a top speed of 40 knots and a range of 2,000 nautical miles. The boat was to feature many other innovations which would enhance the boat's survivability, habitability, and weapon control automation.

The new corvette had gunnery and missile systems that were unique to a ship of its class. The Skorpion was equipped with four vertical transport and launch pods with the Yakhont supersonic anti-ship missile, having a range of up to 300 km. These missiles, like those of the Moskit-E system, had no analogs in the world. Its main advantage was the speed of supersonic flight, which makes the missile demonstrated low vulnerability to enemy air defenses. "Yakhont" has a range of 300 kilometers, the warhead weight - 200 kg.

The boat was the world's first to be armed with a 100 mm A-190E lightweight gun mount, and two Kashtan-1 gunnery systems for self-defence against close-range attacks from anti-ship missiles or air power. For air defense in the near-zone, that is, at a distance of 6.5 kilometers, was the anti-aircraft missile and artillery system "Kashtan-1." The ship was equipped with an active three-axis radar total detection of surface and air targets "Positive-ME1." It can detect at a distance of 150 km, and maintain up to 50 targets simultaneously, provides a classification and issuance of dual targeting fire control systems.

Management was carried out missile firing radar "Harpoon-B" 3C-25E. The active channel the station uses a complex modulated signal, which has the ability, working surface layer, the envelope surface of the earth. Thus, the detection range, depending on the conditions radionablyudaemosti up to 250 km, and in the tests in the Indian Ocean, as told Yuri Arsenyev was obtained distance of 400 km. Thus, the "Scorpion" was the-horizon targeting capability on board, without using any external systems.

As for operations, the "Scorpion", according to Yuri Arsenyev, would be very economical. If cruising range missile boat the previous generation of "Lightning" ( Molniya class), having on board 104 tons of fuel, was 2,200 miles, the "Scorpion" with 64 tons of fuel had a power reserve of 2,500 miles when driving at economic speed of 12 knots. The boat has a combined power plant, consisting of two diesel engines for propulsion and navigation modes of the gas turbine GT-12, intended for release on the rate of interception. GTU-12 drives a ventilated waterjets, designed in CMDB "Almaz". It consists of a shell, which operates at high speed semisubmerged screw. To improve its seaworthiness, the boat was equipped with a set of automatically controlled interceptors capable of reducing rolling motions by a factor of 2 or 3 [other sources say the level of roll of the boat was reduced 5-fold].

The Project 12300 Skorpion is the follow on for the Molniya class or replacement for older Tarantul class ships, its basically a Molniya equivalent, but with full stealth.

With 4 Yakhont, it packs a powerful antiship punch. But armed with 8 KH-35 is not as much as the 16 KH-35 of the Molniya, which is very good for saturation attacks.

I think Vietnam wants something like this, but a bit larger.

There are several variations of the Scorpion project:

The picture says Yakhont, but its actually KH-35.

If they were to add another set of KH-35 launchers, that would be very nice (can stretch the ship a few meters in order to do that).

 

[Carlosa]

he he he...at least you are the one who agrees with me. in my opinion, our navy should have at least a fleet of 6 multirole destroyers. we should build up the fleet piece by piece, to fit our money pocket, 2 destroyers are a good start.

but @Carlosa is right: increasing the number of subs has more priority.

You guys, I have nothing against destroyers, but Vietnam has no need of a blue water navy, that's where you need a destroyer. You can get close enough to a destroyer with a frigate armed with the right stuff, but still, no surface ship will do what a sub can do for Vietnam.

Read the following articles, old Gotland class from Sweden defeats aircraft carriers and in another episode it defeated 2 nuclear subs, one French and one American (one particular chinese member that always says that Viet subs can't defeat chinese nuclear subs should take a note of that).
Then recently a French sub defeats a whole American carrier group.
Try to do those things with a destroyer.
The Gotland class is an small sub by the way.
So what would you have, 1 destroyer or 4 or 5 subs for the same money?

French Submarine 'Sinks' Entire US Aircraft Carrier Group During Wargames / Sputnik International

Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy

HMS Halland took part in a multi-national exercise in the Mediterranean from September 16, 2000. Allegedly, there she remained undetected while still recording many of her friendly adversaries, attracting interest from the participating countries. In early November the same year, she participated in a NATO "blue-water" exercise in the Atlantic. There, she reportedly won a victory in a mock "duel" with Spanish naval units, and then the same in similar duel against a French SSN, a nuclear-powered attack submarine. She also "defeated" an American SSN, the USS Houston.[4]
This was taken from Wikipedia: Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In another episode, a chinese sub resurfaced undetected right next to an American aircraft carrier. So...... enough examples of what a sub can do?
China sub stalked U.S. fleet - Washington Times

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online

As some sailors say, there are 2 types of ships, subs and targets.

Furthermore, a recent analysis was done to see how many Yakhont missiles it would take to sink an AEGIS BURKE destroyer, it was seen that the saturation point was 12 missiles attacking in sea skimming mode, so if more than 12, bye bye destroyer. (this analysis only applies to attacks with Yakhont, not other missiles, its very different if they are subsonic missiles or missiles up to mach 1.5).

That's why I always say that a Vietnamese destroyer is nothing more than a nice target for the chinese. Do you still want a destroyer?

VYMPEL Shipyard JSC » SCORPION MISSILE / GUN BOAT Project 12300
Project 12300 «Scorpion»: Missile-artillery boat
Project 12300 «Scorpion»: Missile-artillery boat derivative

The Russians are the best at packing a lot of firepower in a small ship, but nothing beats the Nanushka, that's the babe, I wish they would do a stealthy, modern equivalent of it.

@Carlosa I wish next gen of missile boat would be this baby, rumor said that the cost similar to Gepard class, but I hope it would be slightly higher than Molniya..

I know all this is because of the posting at comcom, I saw it this morning, but the google translation was so bad that I could not pick up the full meaning, what did it say exactly? Did it suggest that Vietnam is really interested in it or was just wishful thinking as they often do?

As far as I know from what I heard before, VN wants something along those lines, but larger, around a 1000 tons, but who knows?

You guys, I have nothing against destroyers, but Vietnam has no need of a blue water navy, that's where you need a destroyer. You can get close enough to a destroyer with a frigate armed with the right stuff, but still, no surface ship will do what a sub can do for Vietnam.

Read the following articles, old Gotland class from Sweden defeats aircraft carriers and in another episode it defeated 2 nuclear subs, one French and one American (some particular chinese member that always says that Viet subs can't defeat chinese nuclear subs should take a note of that).
Then recently a French sub defeats a whole American carrier group.
Try to do those things with a destroyer.
The Gotland class is an small sub by the way.
So what would you have, 1 destroyer or 4 or 5 subs for the same money?

French Submarine 'Sinks' Entire US Aircraft Carrier Group During Wargames / Sputnik International

Sweden Has A Sub That's So Deadly The US Navy Hired It To Play Bad Guy

HMS Halland took part in a multi-national exercise in the Mediterranean from September 16, 2000. Allegedly, there she remained undetected while still recording many of her friendly adversaries, attracting interest from the participating countries. In early November the same year, she participated in a NATO "blue-water" exercise in the Atlantic. There, she reportedly won a victory in a mock "duel" with Spanish naval units, and then the same in similar duel against a French SSN, a nuclear-powered attack submarine. She also "defeated" an American SSN, the USS Houston.[4]
This was taken from Wikipedia: Gotland-class submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In another episode, a chinese sub resurfaced undetected right next to an American aircraft carrier. So...... enough examples of what a sub can do?
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced | Daily Mail Online

As some sailors say, there are 2 types of ships, subs and targets.

Furthermore, a recent analysis was done to see how many Yakhont missiles it would take to sink an AEGIS BURKE destroyer, it was seen that the saturation point was 12 missiles attacking in sea skimming mode, so if more than 12, bye bye destroyer. (this analysis only applies to attacks with Yakhont, not other missiles, its very different if they are subsonic missiles or missiles up to mach 1.5.

That's why I always say that a Vietnamese destroyer is nothing more than a nice target for the chinese. Do you still want a destroyer?



The Russians are the best at packing a lot of firepower in a small ship, but nothing beats the Nanushka, that's the babe, I wish they would do a stealthy, modern equivalent of it.



I know all this is because of the posting at comcom, I saw it this morning, but the google translation was so bad that I could not pick up the full meaning, what did it say exactly? Did it suggest that Vietnam is really interested in it or was just wishful thinking as they often do?

As far as I know from what I heard before, VN wants something along those lines, but larger, around a 1000 tons, but who knows?

I wonder to know how this design ( based on Damen 9014 OPV ) could be adapt to Navy usage ? currently use for Coast Guard and Fishery Surveillance.

OPV optimised for military security, safety and humanitarian task

Vietnam built this domestically

It could be adapted, but it requires significant redesign, this one is built according to civilian standards for the most part while as a warship, it has to be done based on military standards such as military grade steel for the hull and many other things.

Have to also remember that the design belongs to Damen, so it probably requires permission from them.

 

[Penguin]

The picture says Yakhont, but its actually KH-35.

You got that from http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0902006/korvete.asp?
Not sure that is Scorpion.

 

[Carlosa]

You got that from http://www.hrvatski-vojnik.hr/hrvatski-vojnik/0902006/korvete.asp?
Not sure that is Scorpion.

I've seen that picture in more than one place, I don't remember now, I already had it in my computer for a while. I've seen quite a few variants of the Skorpion.

Your last pic is the upgraded version of the BPS-500, looks good now, but I don't really trust that ship much, the original version was a failure, the ship could not launch missiles while moving.
The ship is in the same class are the Scorpion, but from a different shipyard.

 

[Penguin]

I've seen that picture in more than one place, I don't remember now, I already had it in my computer for a while. I've seen quite a few variants of the Skorpion.

Your last pic is the upgraded version of the BPS-500, looks good now, but I don't really trust that ship much, the original version was a failure, the ship could not launch missiles while moving.
The ship is in the same class are the Scorpion, but from a different shipyard.

THe model in your earlier pic, I think it is old and from the Northern Design Bureau, like early 2000-2005. They has a whole series, including a 1800 ton corvette. This was before 20380 was firm.

 

[Azeri440]

Hey @waz - put my name in next-time PDF expands its mods, threads like this always have off-topic, rude or unnecessary posts. I'd mod like no-one's ever modded before... seriously though, I'd like to be a mod.

On the topic (so I don't get "modded"):

Vietnam should opt for additional subs, perhaps the Lada/Amur class

View attachment 198478

As for surface vessels, Vietnam needs all aspect defenses, anti-air, ASW and Anti-surface - perhaps a destroyer design, and not a frigate or corvette - like the Sigma, will be needed:

Still, can't go wrong with the French FREMM

View attachment 198487

Or perhaps a partnership with either Japan or India

View attachment 198488

View attachment 198489

Not sure if it would be offered to Vietnam, but the Freedom Class is for sale

View attachment 198490

View attachment 198492

View attachment 198493

The USN has wanted to retire its Ticonderogas, perhaps Vietnam could ask for one? I don't know, just thinking out loud. But it never hurts to ask. Worse case scenario? You keep looking. Best case scenario? You have yourselves and air-defense cruiser!!!

View attachment 198497

The good new is Vietnam has a lot of options, the bad news is Vietnam has a lot of options. Take some time, make the right choice!!!

I'd buy American if I were Vietnam... or Indian or Japanese!

Vietnam would go bankrupt just maintaining and properly equipping Ticonderogas cruiser.

 

[Carlosa]

Vietnam would go bankrupt just maintaining and properly equipping Ticonderogas cruiser.

I definitely agree with that, the US Navy wants to get read of them because they are very expensive to maintain and upgrade, so not even think about Vietnam having to deal with that.

THe model in your earlier pic, I think it is old and from the Northern Design Bureau, like early 2000-2005. They has a whole series, including a 1800 ton corvette. This was before 20380 was firm.

Yes, I think you are right, I remember that whole series.

The latest version is nice but I think it would be better to stretch the ship a few meters and double the Yakhont to 8. 4 is a bit too little.

 

[BoQ77]