What will a secular pakistan look like?

[Informant]

Yawn.....

So, what's new? Its not as though GOP goes around doing all that stuff. What would secularism do? Stop all this?

Teach us to be a bit patient and being open minded. Not gonna happen like a switch, but slowly and steadily. The 60s and 70s and upto early 80s were peaceful time in PAkistan. Conservatism was at bay, and so was the society at peace. Then came the mulla overlords and we have been on a downhill trajectory eversince.

There is no swift cure to our ills but being a highly conservative and reactant society has done us all the harm. Being secular doesnt make us leave the cohesive force that binds us nor ISlam.

 

[mujhaidind]

Secularism has no place in an Islamic society. Secularism means ditching your culture for western one.

Look at India.

 

[A Town]

Teach us to be a bit patient and being open minded. Not gonna happen like a switch, but slowly and steadily. The 60s and 70s and upto early 80s were peaceful time in PAkistan. Conservatism was at bay, and so was the society at peace. Then came the mulla overlords and we have been on a downhill trajectory eversince.

There is no swift cure to our ills but being a highly conservative and reactant society has done us all the harm. Being secular doesnt make us leave the cohesive force that binds us nor ISlam.

 

[Oldman1]

I agree, I'm not asking Pakistan adopt Western secularism, it may or may not work. Pakistan must find it's own way, but some of the things we attribute to Western secularism are pretty much there already and with more to follow as we develop.

Why do you think westerners chose to have secularism in their own countries? Cause it sounded cool? Or maybe to provide a solution to something that has been damaging to western societies?

 

[Dubious]

Don't you think this is happening right now? Blasphemy laws are being misused. A Governor was killed and his killer is treated as a hero. Mullahs imposing their own shariat in their areas (Swat). Mullahs kidnapping people because they think they can (Lal Masjid).

So is that Islamic? None of it is! and Pakistan is not even Islamic laws!

A secular state will not tolerate this BS. People can't hide behind their religion after committing crimes.

Nor would an Islamic state...and no Islamic laws (if applied properly shouldnt be supporting sultans - In Islam it is all about equality on all grounds...the national treasure belongs to no one...

Remember, lots of Islamic laws are open to interpretation. Secularism based laws are not.

Secularism based laws are open to interpretation too:

Who decides what is right and wrong? What if a person like Zardari is heading or deciding the laws? Or what if a convict (Zardari also went to jail so the next man in jail can also be our law maker, right?)

 

[FaujHistorian]

b
when i say Over religious free peoples i mean taliban and madarsa type , who have nothing to do with islam

Aik he thaali kay chuttay buttay hain sub. (birds of feather).

JI clearly showed its colors by declaring TTP goons as shaheed.

So please no hypocrisy and slight of hand.

Thank you


p.s. Are you JI or JUI?

 

[Chak Bamu]

Teach us to be a bit patient and being open minded. Not gonna happen like a switch, but slowly and steadily. The 60s and 70s and upto early 80s were peaceful time in PAkistan. Conservatism was at bay, and so was the society at peace. Then came the mulla overlords and we have been on a downhill trajectory eversince.

There is no swift cure to our ills but being a highly conservative and reactant society has done us all the harm. Being secular doesnt make us leave the cohesive force that binds us nor ISlam.

So you see secularism as an antidote to conservatism? Be careful here though. Secularism should have nothing to do with Conservatism or Liberalism; because if it does, then it is a tool for Liberals and therefore would be a cause for instability.

If you have a Liberal agenda, you would be well-advised to advocate it and not use Secularism as a vehicle of choice as a feint.

I am skeptical of this ruse. It means to make a bet that Pakistan as a nation state is strong enough to exist on its own and by itself. This is a highly debatable contention as it is. I would not be willing to bet whatever is left of our stability on such an assumption.

We should be aiming at practical secularism, within the framework of our present constitution. That is how it is supposed to be anyway. I will fault education and official propaganda for much of the excesses, not an absence of Secularism as state ideology / guiding principle.

If you have seen some of the magazine of '70s with good doses of veiled erotica, you might understand the reasons for a conservative back-lash in '80s. The '80s did not just happen, there were reasons for it. Instead of focusing on rhetoric, you may wish to consider as to why there was hardly any popular reaction during Zia era.

 

[qamar1990]

As you can see the results there are about 15 Indians who want Pakistan to be Secular...

While 4 Indians saying no ...

I dont know about Pakistani but Indians seem more hyped about the topic at hand! Just coz they hugged a new religion (yes to be secular you have certain rules just like religion has certain rules that you should abide to and you should refrain from) the opposite side of the spectrum (opposite to the mullah) does the same...forces down secularism (their religion/ belief)

there are 19 pakistanis at least that are saying yes, thats the ones i can confirm the rest idk if they are indians, turks or pakistanis.
there are 16 pakistanis saying no rest are indians.
so secularism has 3 extra votes

If you have seen some of the magazine of '70s with good doses of veiled erotica, you might understand the reasons for a conservative back-lash in '80s. The '80s did not just happen, there were reasons for it. Instead of focusing on rhetoric, you may wish to consider as to why there was hardly any popular reaction during Zia era.

would you happen to have any pics of these covers???

 

[TheNoob]

Let's analyze the demographics of Pakistan first...shall we....then we will decide on the system of governance.

1) Multiple ethnicities (= Multiple cultures and multiple traditions)

2) Multiple languages(national language being Urdu and English)

3) Multiple political ideologies

4) Multiple religious sects

5) Multiple tribes and inherent caste system

6) Multiple social classes(based on monetary income)

-----So this is a general outlook which probably every Pakistani knows and understands fully. But here is the catch....what is the Pakistani identity?

Answer: Not Religion---If Religion was the Pakistani identity than we would still have Bangladesh......Religion as a uniting factor and a national identity has completely and utterly failed everywhere in the world including Pakistan. Which interpretation of political Islam or shariah would the nation apply unto itself? hanafi? barelvi? shia? madaudism? wahabism? Man I am gonna get tired just by mentioning all of them...and do not forget we have a good amount of non-muslims too amongst our borders.

Simple definition of Secularism is the freedom of religion from the politics/state. It is nothing more than that....contrary to popular belief that Secularism promotes hedonism...drinking...gambling...prostitution etc. are all lies spread by the religious right and mullah folks.

Fact of the matter is Pakistan is a fractured society today and it needs Pakistani nationalism under one rule of law and one constitution. It needs a grass root democracy which will provide every sector of the society with a platform.

Pakistanis First....Pakistan First.....

Look at the example of other multicultural and diverse countries such as ours.....and learn from them...that how they prosper while we continue to hit the lowest of the low......let's think pragmatically yeah?

Oh my god...
...DUDE.
YOU ARE AMAZING!

 

[qamar1990]

If Islam is the one thing holding Pakistan together then what is holding India together?

that is a good question, what is holding india together?

 

[qamar1990]

Let's analyze the demographics of Pakistan first...shall we....then we will decide on the system of governance.

1) Multiple ethnicities (= Multiple cultures and multiple traditions)

2) Multiple languages(national language being Urdu and English)

3) Multiple political ideologies

4) Multiple religious sects

5) Multiple tribes and inherent caste system

6) Multiple social classes(based on monetary income)

-----So this is a general outlook which probably every Pakistani knows and understands fully. But here is the catch....what is the Pakistani identity?

the pakistani identity is that we are muslims united…….

Answer: Not Religion---If Religion was the Pakistani identity than we would still have Bangladesh......Religion as a uniting factor and a national identity has completely and utterly failed everywhere in the world including Pakistan. Which interpretation of political Islam or shariah would the nation apply unto itself? hanafi? barelvi? shia? madaudism? wahabism? Man I am gonna get tired just by mentioning all of them...and do not forget we have a good amount of non-muslims too amongst our borders.

my friend how can religion not be the answer, if the country was founded based on religion? why did our punjab have to get split into 2? why did the homeland of pathans get split? the homeland of the bengalis got split into 2?
just because we have different sects doesn't mean that religion is the the uniting factor of the country, all these sects you mentioned are under the fold of islam.. are they not? they have their difference but they con side each there muslims.

Simple definition of Secularism is the freedom of religion from the politics/state. It is nothing more than that....contrary to popular belief that Secularism promotes hedonism...drinking...gambling...prostitution etc. are all lies spread by the religious right and mullah folks.

correct

Fact of the matter is Pakistan is a fractured society today and it needs Pakistani nationalism under one rule of law and one constitution. It needs a grass root democracy which will provide every sector of the society with a platform.

And how do we do that?
stay the way we are? or impose sharia? or go secular?

Pakistanis First....Pakistan First.....

Look at the example of other multicultural and diverse countries such as ours.....and learn from them...that how they prosper while we continue to hit the lowest of the low......let's think pragmatically yeah?

our biggest problems right now?? religious and ethnic extremism..
other countries like ours treat their citizens equally and everybody is the same under law.

 

[Metanoia]

the pakistani identity is that we are muslims united…….

my friend how can religion not be the answer, if the country was founded based on religion? why did our punjab have to get split into 2? why did the homeland of pathans get split? the homeland of the bengalis got split into 2?
just because we have different sects doesn't mean that religion is the the uniting factor of the country, all these sects you mentioned are under the fold of islam.. are they not? they have their difference but they con side each there muslims.

Ok if you believe religion is the glue holding and uniting Pakistan together then best of luck.

But please do explain where was the Islami brotherly love when Bangladesh separated? And look at Pakistan...I mean come on...you have to be utterly naive if you believe this is a united nation....this is a fractured nation in need for urgent repair. Why is Islam not working then? History...ground realities and facts have shown that religion fails miserably when it comes to uniting people....tribalism, ethnicity always takes precedes. After the death of Umar(r.a) the fractures began to surface bhai.....read the history and be pragmatic.

Also as an experiment....try telling a barelvi Pakistani and a deobandi Pakistani to pray in each others mosques and be "brotherly" because all of us come under the fold of Islam.....if they don't kill you and you manage to live then note down their reaction and share with us.

our biggest problems right now?? religious and ethnic extremism..
other countries like ours treat their citizens equally and everybody is the same under law.

If you want religion to be the guiding principle for Pakistan how can you expect equality for other sects? Which line will you tow? deobandi? barelvi? madudism? shia? wahabi/salafi? sufi? ismaeli?

Who is the one to decide which is the right path and the right sect?

 

[qamar1990]

Ok if you believe religion is the glue holding and uniting Pakistan together then best of luck.

thanks?….

But please do explain where was the Islami brotherly love when Bangladesh separated? And look at Pakistan...I mean come on...you have to be utterly naive if you believe this is a united nation....this is a fractured nation in need for urgent repair. Why is Islam not working then? History...ground realities and facts have shown that religion fails miserably when it comes to uniting people....tribalism, ethnicity always takes precedes. After the death of Umar(r.a) the fractures began to surface bhai.....read the history and be pragmatic.

this is off topic i have opened another thread for this lets take the discussion there.

Also as an experiment....try telling a barelvi Pakistani and a deobandi Pakistani to pray in each others mosques and be "brotherly" because all of us come under the fold of Islam.....if they don't kill you and you manage to live then note down their reaction and share with us.

bro please tell me how this makes sense? you know what let tell you something as a punjabi its sad that our beloved punjab is divided into 2, i am more closer to pathans and balochis and urdus speakers and sindhis rather then my fellow punjabis because those punjabis in india are not muslims, if these fellow pakistanis of mines weren't muslims then what the heck am i divided from my people for? why is my state divided?

If you want religion to be the guiding principle for Pakistan how can you expect equality for other sects? Which line will you tow? deobandi? barelvi? madudism? shia? wahabi/salafi? sufi? ismaeli?

Who is the one to decide which is the right path and the right sect?

i want a secular pakistan just to clear the air….

Secularism has no place in an Islamic society. Secularism means ditching your culture for western one.

Look at India.

yes but religion gets abused… all the failures of pakistan are being blamed on islam

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

Good/real secular states are mostly more tolerant of religions. Secular states do not privilege any one religion or view on religion but by doing so it protects religions and religious people hold different religious beliefs. Secularism gets a bad reputation because it diminishes the privilege of a particular religion/culture/belief over people who do not belong to it. A state that tries to be neutral on the matter of religious belief protects the believer from being oppressed by the non believer just as it protects the non believer from being oppressed by the believer.Secular society will be more tolerant society. You may not agree with beliefs and practices of different people in society but it is important to respect the rights of others as long as they are not imposing something on you or not hurting you then they should be free to believe and practice what they like. We have tabligi mullah come in uk for spreading message of islam but will it be sane for them to curse secularism who give them this freedom of religion ans this privilege

 

[Chak Bamu]

would you happen to have any pics of these covers???

Erotica, not ****. I just found a stash of Urdu magazines from 70s sometime in early 80s. Some art-work was highly suggestive. Why would I keep trash from that time?

In any case, I find the 80s portrayed in very uni-dimensional and simplistic terms by most posters. Can not say I blame them. Most obsession about 80s is by liberals and thus the kids that have grown up in 90s & 00s just do not understand the dynamics that well.