What will a secular pakistan look like?

[Metanoia]

bro please tell me how this makes sense? you know what let tell you something as a punjabi its sad that our beloved punjab is divided into 2, i am more closer to pathans and balochis and urdus speakers and sindhis rather then my fellow punjabis because those punjabis in india are not muslims, if these fellow pakistanis of mines weren't muslims then what the heck am i divided from my people for? why is my state divided?


i want a secular pakistan just to clear the air….


yes but religion gets abused… all the failures of pakistan are being blamed on islam

Yaar first thing is first...Pakistanis(including me) need to stop dwelling in the past.....partition hua....good. It is done and now Pakistan is a reality and here to stay. I was born after the partition and this is the home I know. The muslims believed that they needed a separate space to live in order to escape domination. They didn't escape in order to save Islam....India has more population of muslims than Pakistan.

Ask yourself how does a Muslim, Buddhist, Christian and a Hindu live in the same college dorm....and you'll pretty much get the answer.

Political Islam gets blamed and rightfully so.....Islam doesn't get the blame and is not to be blamed. There are thousands of different interpretations and only God knows which one is right...so let's leave it at that. Religion and faith are a matter between an individual and his Maker....and it should remain that way.

 

[A1Kaid]

A secular Pakistan would be more stable than what it is today, though it would take time.

 

[Chak Bamu]

People talking about East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh forget that we live in a very imperfect world. My uncle who was among the founding staff of ISI told me that our Army had concluded much before 71 that East Pakistan was not worth keeping. This clearly explains conduct of senior generals in Pakistan.

Rather than blaming religion for not being able to hold both wings of Pakistan together, some soul-searching would be appropriate. Pakistan was supposed to be a democracy with attendant institutions. Once dictatorship held sway, a breakup was inevitable. The break up was not because of Islam or anything like that. It was because of a mindset that rejected higher religious values. Had there been justice and openness, the results would have been different.

 

[qamar1990]

Erotica, not ****. I just found a stash of Urdu magazines from 70s sometime in early 80s. Some art-work was highly suggestive. Why would I keep trash from that time?

In any case, I find the 80s portrayed in very uni-dimensional and simplistic terms by most posters. Can not say I blame them. Most obsession about 80s is by liberals and thus the kids that have grown up in 90s & 00s just do not understand the dynamics that well.

yeah i know its not **** lol..
but you threw them out seriously?

 

[Metanoia]

People talking about East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh forget that we live in a very imperfect world. My uncle who was among the founding staff of ISI told me that our Army had concluded much before 71 that East Pakistan was not worth keeping. This clearly explains conduct of senior generals in Pakistan.

Rather than blaming religion for not being able to hold both wings of Pakistan together, some soul-searching would be appropriate. Pakistan was supposed to be a democracy with attendant institutions. Once dictatorship held sway, a breakup was inevitable. The break up was not because of Islam or anything like that. It was because of a mindset that rejected higher religious values. Had there been justice and openness, the results would have been different.

The issue is not religion...but at the same time we can not deny that religion can not hold people together....it just doesn't work that way. End of the day people are just f**ked up and it will take more than just religion to instill order, discipline and unity.

 

[rockstar08]

Aik he thaali kay chuttay buttay hain sub. (birds of feather).

JI clearly showed its colors by declaring TTP goons as shaheed.

So please no hypocrisy and slight of hand.

Thank you


p.s. Are you JI or JUI?

my point is dont merge those idiots with true islamic teachings . you choose wrong ideals .. dont judge islam or shariah from taliban , isis , al qaeda , ji jui etc... judge islam from Quran and 1 million Authenticated Hadith ...
well when i say anything about pathans, and PTI i become MQMer
and now you are asking me that am i JI aur JUI lolz
I am a Proud Muslim and Proud Pakistani ... nothing else

 

[Chak Bamu]

yeah i know its not **** lol..
but you threw them out seriously?

Dude I was a kid back then. Did not know then that you would need them in 2014, otherwise I might have kept them from being sold in Raddi.

 

[mahesh.]

It is obvious that secularism has nothing to do(mostly) with the economic progress of the country. I think the progress of Secular countries with Muslim majority like Turkey has nothing to with Secularism. Rather with location and resources and governance.

Only Pros by making Pakistan secular- Religious freedom to minorities, No interference of Religion with state affairs.

While this might sound good, but it has severe consequences.

Any policy to make Pakistan secular will be good opportunity for the sick minded who wants to take advantage Islam and fear of losing Islam in Pakistan.

There will be hartals and revolts against the government (either by anger from public or created politicians and religious leaders).

Its very easy to take advantage of this situations in sub-continent and create havoc.

We have to think "even with such importance to Islam and Muslim majority the situation is not so good, and what happens if there is no importance to Islam in Pakistan".

The terrorist recruiters have more reasons to bring Sharia and more suicide bombings will follow.

So as per my limited knowledge At this point of time its not better to bring secularism to Pakistan and bring more confusion among people and youth.

Its not worth regarding the immediate consequences to follow.

Better keep it same and concentrate on economy and destroying terrorists. May be in 15 - 20 years once literacy reaches 90-100% and better technology and communication to outer world views of people might change.

 

[qamar1990]

Dude I was a kid back then. Did not know then that you would need them in 2014, otherwise I might have kept them from being sold in Raddi.

oh i thought you found them recently and threw them out lol.
how about a debate on this forum between you and @FaujHistorian? would love to see that lol you guys seem to be the exact opposite in views.

It is obvious that secularism has nothing to do(mostly) with the economic progress of the country. I think the progress of Secular countries with Muslim majority like Turkey has nothing to with Secularism. Rather with location and resources and governance.

Only Pros by making Pakistan secular- Religious freedom to minorities, No interference of Religion with state affairs.

While this might sound good, but it has severe consequences.

Any policy to make Pakistan secular will be good opportunity for the sick minded who wants to take advantage Islam and fear of losing Islam in Pakistan.

There will be hartals and revolts against the government (either by anger from public or created politicians and religious leaders).

Its very easy to take advantage of this situations in sub-continent and create havoc.

We have to think "even with such importance to Islam and Muslim majority the situation is not so good, and what happens if there is no importance to Islam in Pakistan".

The terrorist recruiters have more reasons to bring Sharia and more suicide bombings will follow.

So as per my limited knowledge At this point of time its not better to bring secularism to Pakistan and bring more confusion among people and youth.

Its not worth regarding the immediate consequences to follow.

Better keep it same and concentrate on economy and destroying terrorists. May be in 15 - 20 years once literacy reaches 90-100% and better technology and communication to outer world views of people might change.

thats is exactly what we need just wait till our literacy is around 90 percent maybe our people will be more open minded then.

 

[mahesh.]

oh i thought you found them recently and threw them out lol.
how about a debate on this forum between you and @FaujHistorian? would love to see that lol you guys seem to be the exact opposite in views.


thats is exactly what we need just wait till our literacy is around 90 percent maybe our people will be more open minded then.

Not only literacy but the employment. If most of the people are employed and the governance is good, people will have less reasons to doubt politicians and believe in some random religious guy holding a mike and say slogans.

 

[Asena_Y]

even turkey a country that has been secular for 100 years is not" developed" yet.

Hmmm .

Today Turkey is the world's 17th largest economy. Probably at top 5 in terms of emerging market and economy. World's 8th most powerful military (it may not reliable, GFP). GDP Per Capita is around $19,000. HDI is classified as "High". The next four largest emerging and developing economies are MINT which the "T" refers to Turkey, said by Jim O'Neill who is the founder of BRIC term. One of ten NICs (Newly Industrialized County) among with India, China, Brazil and others. CIA World Factbook classifies Turkey as a "developed country". After the Latin alphabet reform the literacy rate was below 50%. Now it's %96-97.

The biggest point is,

- We have suffered a World War I and an Independence War where we fought and won against 5-6 enemies led by Great Britaine, France and Italy, alone on ourselves under Atatürk's leadership.

- After the foundation of Republic of Turkey, the population was 14,000,000. Today it's around 78 millions. We dont have a billion population or hundreds of millions people like Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan have.

- We dont have rich oil reserves. We dont have much oil reserves at all. Unlike Arabic countries, our economy is not based on energy reserves.

Our only problem is bad leadership and tightened security at our borders. That's all.

No muslim country has better conditions than Turkey. No offence to anyone.

BTW It's 91 years. Still a decade left .

 

[RAMPAGE]

23 Pakistanis voted for secularism and 17 against it.

 

[Chak Bamu]

The issue is not religion...but at the same time we can not deny that religion can not hold people together....it just doesn't work that way. End of the day people are just f**ked up and it will take more than just religion to instill order, discipline and unity.

1. The issue is secularism in opposition to a primary religion-based identity. How could then it not be about religion?

2. Religions does hold people together. You are just tuned off that fact. I've seen it work. Why would various ethnicities of Pakistan decide to stick together? Why do we not have a Sindhudesh, and a Greater Balochistan, and a Greater Punjab, and a Pakhtoonistan? Why would I identify with a Pashtun rather than a fellow Punjabi across the border?

Your analysis has some serious flaws, but your are pressing on with your POV with fanatical conviction. Something is wrong here. Can you see it?

3. Your assertion that '....it just doesn't work that way' is just your opinion, not a fact. My view is different that yours because of my experience and study. I can give you examples: all the large countries created by Muslims were multi-ethnic. Islam was the only constant. It worked for them. In this day and age, with some changes, it would (and has) worked for us.

4. When you describe people as 'just f**ked up', do you not see the (unintended) irony?

5. You wish to instill order, discipline and unity. How do you hope to accomplish that? By dividing their identities based on ethnicities? You may deny it immediately, but do you realize that removing religion from the equation serves to strengthen other, currently subservient basis of identity? Pakistani nationalism is not some great panacea, or some divine device, or some magic pill that would keep so many people together.

Your agenda / prejudice is making you advocate a gamble that nobody should be prepared to undertake. I tell you clearly - if Islam was not the part of my identity for being a Pakistani, I would be working for Greater Punjab, which would be a far more viable country on secular basis with greater GDP, and HDI indicators, and homogeniety. If Islam can be taken out of the equation, then so can the massacres of 1947.

6. If you must find faults, do so with sectarianism. Otherwise your quest would turn out to be Quixotic in the end.

 

[FaujHistorian]

my point is dont merge those idiots with true islamic teachings . you choose wrong ideals .. dont judge islam or shariah from taliban , isis , al qaeda , ji jui etc... judge islam from Quran and 1 million Authenticated Hadith ...
well when i say anything about pathans, and PTI i become MQMer
and now you are asking me that am i JI aur JUI lolz
I am a Proud Muslim and Proud Pakistani ... nothing else

TTP, ISIS, etc. Jihadis
MB, JI, JUI etc. aka Islamists

are both the outcome of the tree grown in the cesspool where religion and politics is mixed, mashed, blended, crushed, and cooked together.

Similar cesspools are common and similar organizations are their nature outgrowth if you replace one religion aka Islam with another for example Hinduism (RSS, Shuddi, Modi), Buddhism (attrocities in Burma, S.lanka on minority Muslims), Christianity (Tamil, medieval Europe), atheism (Soviet Union). etc. Islam gets to be named more just because Pakistan is majority Muslims. But just for a moment assume that we were majority Buddhists, and monks wanted to mix religion and politics, we would have TTP of Buddhist variety.


So anyone who feels that Islam is some how being singled out, they could not be more mistaken.

It is a broad process that shows when you mix politics and religion, any religion you will get the worst possible human behavior as a result.

I hope this clarifies a bit

 

[M. Sarmad]

People talking about East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh forget that we live in a very imperfect world. My uncle who was among the founding staff of ISI told me that our Army had concluded much before 71 that East Pakistan was not worth keeping. This clearly explains conduct of senior generals in Pakistan.

Rather than blaming religion for not being able to hold both wings of Pakistan together, some soul-searching would be appropriate. Pakistan was supposed to be a democracy with attendant institutions. Once dictatorship held sway, a breakup was inevitable. The break up was not because of Islam or anything like that. It was because of a mindset that rejected higher religious values. Had there been justice and openness, the results would have been different.

Your uncle lied to you ... Religion , and religion alone is to be blamed for the separation of East Pakistan ... Read the history of 1954 elections , and how the politicians in west Pakistan (minority) tried to use Islam as a political tool against the nationalists and socialists of East Pakistan (majority) ... We all know what was the result .. But few nations never learn ... and unfortunately we are one of them ....