What will a secular pakistan look like?

[Contrarian]

Your uncle lied to you ... Religion , and religion alone is to be blamed for the separation of East Pakistan ... Read the history of 1954 elections , and how the politicians in west Pakistan (minority) tried to use Islam as a political tool against the nationalists and socialists of East Pakistan (majority) ... We all know what was the result .. But few nations never learn ... and unfortunately we are one of them ....

You never answered the question asked by Aeronaut.
What per you makes Bengalis, Biharis and Rajasthanis keep their ethnic identities second and their national identities first.

And is there something that can be replicated by Pakistan.

 

[qamar1990]

Hmmm .

Today Turkey is the world's 17th largest economy. Probably at top 5 in terms of emerging market and economy. World's 8th most powerful military (it may not reliable, GFP). GDP Per Capita is around $19,000. HDI is classified as "High". The next four largest emerging and developing economies are MINT which the "T" refers to Turkey, said by Jim O'Neill who is the founder of BRIC term. One of ten NICs (Newly Industrialized County) among with India, China, Brazil and others. CIA World Factbook classifies Turkey as a "developed country". After the Latin alphabet reform the literacy rate was below 50%. Now it's %96-97.

The biggest point is,

- We have suffered a World War I and an Independence War where we fought and won against 5-6 enemies led by Great Britaine, France and Italy, alone on ourselves under Atatürk's leadership.

- After the foundation of Republic of Turkey, the population was 14,000,000. Today it's around 78 millions. We dont have a billion population or hundreds of millions people like Indonesia, Malaysia or Pakistan have.

- We dont have rich oil reserves. We dont have much oil reserves at all. Unlike Arabic countries, our economy is not based on energy reserves.

Our only problem is bad leadership and tightened security at our borders. That's all.

No muslim country has better conditions than Turkey. No offence to anyone.

BTW It's 91 years. Still a decade left .

the point is its been 91 years and still there its not developed, germany and poland were destroyed during ww2 and they are in a better condition.
your acting as if having a large population is a good thing, its not its a burden on the country.
its much easier to develop with a smaller population.
no doubt turkey has better condition then pretty much all muslim countries.

my main point was that being secular doesn't mean economic success because 91 years later turkey is still not "developed" no doubt its doing good but its recent success has nothing to do with it being a secular country i hope you know that.

 

[Bang Galore]

People talking about East Pakistan becoming Bangladesh forget that we live in a very imperfect world. My uncle who was among the founding staff of ISI told me that our Army had concluded much before 71 that East Pakistan was not worth keeping. This clearly explains conduct of senior generals in Pakistan.

Actually, it does not. The opposite infact. If the army had decided that East Pakistan had to be let go, then there was no reason to do things that would damage relations with the people of that part and damage West Pakistan in the process. Your uncle might have held that opinion but I'm afraid that it is not backed by logic.

 

[qamar1990]

LOL most ppl cannot handle the truth so I mostly keep my mouth shut!

we can handle the truth bhaji

On personal level I have n problem with anyone being secular.

what do you mean personal level? like you are a secular person yourself? or just that you have no problem with secularism.

for Muslims countries, I cannot support secularism on official level. We would just be asking for trouble. couple of decades from now you & you will bear the fruits

what have muslim countries done to you that you wouldn't support secularism for them? lol
the fruits you are talking about will be bore no matter what… weather we stay secular or not. society has changed so much already.

As it is a these teens were busting by chops for not supporting fag marriage.

let the fags live their lives man lol, they can't help that they were born that way lol

What is up with muslim kinds from rochester? I thin k I got surround by at-least 4 of em in Boston last moth.!

what happened?

Then there were these 16-17 years old kids form France( 2 cpusins have french hubbies, non muslims ) that were drinking wine like it was nobody's business only then to be take over from the young ladies visiting from Lahore!

ma sadkay… chars nu aj kal chad do auntie ji lol, you lost me here..?

 

[FaujHistorian]

Actually, it does not. The opposite infact. If the army had decided that East Pakistan had to be let go, then there was no reason to do things that would damage relations with the people of that part and damage West Pakistan in the process. Your uncle might have held that opinion but I'm afraid that it is not backed by logic.

Well said. E. Pakistan was part of our country

India used force and took it.;

Like Russia just looted Crimea on sheer force.

No need to rewrite history by using some dubious sources like saying I knew ISI guy who said this to someone. Then why to let our 60,000 army men and 30,000 civilians become hostages of Indira.

This is just pathetic. This is just a mockery of military history.

 

[Indos]

More secular Pakistan, more reason for some hard line Pakistani to join TTP
There is nothing to do with economy development in term of whether one country is secular or not, as Indonesian is more religious than Pakistan is (our percentage of people pray 5 times per day is more than Pakistan one) and it is moving forward.
Indonesian Today is actually more religious than in Soeharto time, and our economy is moving fast since early 2000 when we start to liberate Islam politics and Islam teaching in middle 1998 (starting of our reformation era).

 

[MastanKhan]

Impossible.

The moral values of our society are based on religion and that is why it will be impossible to separate state from religion.

Sir,

By religion if you meant Islam---the you have absolutely no clue what you just stated----you just committed " BLSPHEMY ".

 

[suresh1773]

. we humans have no knowledge of right or wrong ..

What do u mean by this statement.U steal,cheat,stab,kill somebody,will u say that U can't figure out what is right or wrong.

Is this the way u think.

 

[FaujHistorian]

More secular Pakistan, more reason for some hard line Pakistani to join TTP
There is nothing to do with economy development in term of whether one country is secular or not, as Indonesian is more religious than Pakistan is (our percentage of people pray 5 times per day is more than Pakistan one) and it is moving forward.
Indonesian Today is actually more religious than in Soeharto time, and our economy is moving fast since early 2000 when we start to liberate Islam politics and Islam teaching in middle 1998 (starting of our reformation era).

REligious practices should not be confused with Islamism. The two are different. like night and day

 

[Indos]

REligious practices should not be confused with Islamism. The two are different. like night and day

In a democratic country, with more religious people in it, there will be more tendency to support more Islamic oriented regulation. Even a secular oriented party can become more religious in order to sustain and grow their political power. Religious practice will absolutely enhance Islamist agenda in this particular context.

Lets give the people a chance to choose which country they want to be by basing on their political bargaining power in the election. If a country become a secular one, there will be rigidity in term of changing side. And this kind of set will bring chaos as the nation is not flexible anymore to accommodate their people real interest and goal. Extremist will rise in this kind of set.

Indonesia is not a secular nation.

 

[mujhaidind]

yes but religion gets abused… all the failures of pakistan are being blamed on islam

Islam is the reason why Pakistan was created. Impose real Sharia and you will see the difference.

 

[Chak Bamu]

Your uncle lied to you ... Religion , and religion alone is to be blamed for the separation of East Pakistan ... Read the history of 1954 elections , and how the politicians in west Pakistan (minority) tried to use Islam as a political tool against the nationalists and socialists of East Pakistan (majority) ... We all know what was the result .. But few nations never learn ... and unfortunately we are one of them ....

How dare you call my uncle a liar???? How idiotic can you get??? He was a decorated officer. Part of the very first diplomatic mission to USSR. Among founding staff of ISI. He dealt with propaganda / psychological aspects of warfare. You are nothing compared to him.

This is a persistent problem with you: rubbishing sources that go against your parochial views. Authenticity means nothing to you. When you loose an argument you start shouting about the other person being rhetorical. That is the sole reason why I do not engage with you.

Were you there in 1954? Were you alive then? All you know is from your biased reading of your biased sources. Religion alone is never the sole determinant, there are always other factors that can not be ignored. This is the classic mistake that JI types make. Liberals / socialist types like you, on the other hand, are allergic to religion. Both these extremes can not explain history, can not come up with a satisfactory analysis, and certainly can not offer any workable solutions.

A while back yo referred me to Justic Munir report. I did read half of it. Guess what? Its a mixed bag and the way some 'roshan khayal' intellectual types use it is actually dishonest. Where it mainly criticizes Ahrari jamaat, dishonest 'analysts' stretch that criticism to all Islamists with glee. It faults Qadianis as being 'no angels themselves' for their provocations, but I have never known any rosha khayal intellectual to ever point that out. Funny isn't it? How certain people are so emotionally committed to their POV that they must ignore the relevant and go after the far-fetched? Should someone point out the obvious, well then a number of labels are always handy: rhetorical, backward, regressive, liar, and what not...

Negative minds never produce positive results. You sir will waste your time in finding faults with others even when none exist (my uncle being a case in point), because that is all you have learned. I fault your biased, agenda-based study for this spectacle. If you have guts, go engage a scholar instead of insulting people here on PDF as though they are beneath you.

 

[Bouncer]

So is that Islamic? None of it is! and Pakistan is not even Islamic laws!

Nor would an Islamic state...and no Islamic laws (if applied properly shouldnt be supporting sultans - In Islam it is all about equality on all grounds...the national treasure belongs to no one...

No its not Islamic/Hindu/Christian/Jain or anything. That's the point. People who did these things used Islam as an excuse.
What are your views about "Hadood laws". Do you think they are fair? Do you think that they are 100% in accordance with what the Quran says? I don't think so. Blindly trying to follow religion has resulted in these kind of laws. In this day and age, mullahs are declaring DNA evidence unacceptable. Mullahs are insisting on getting eye witness for starting an Islamic month (moon sighting), when we have technologies to do this reliably.

ecularism based laws are open to interpretation too:
Who decides what is right and wrong? What if a person like Zardari is heading or deciding the laws? Or what if a convict (Zardari also went to jail so the next man in jail can also be our law maker, right?)

Who decides? The people of Pakistan, my dear. Not some uneducated, sectarian biased mullah sitting in his seminary.
Zardari was not a representative of people of Pakistan. He was just a glitch in the system. But the beauty of democracy is that, people learn from their mistakes.

 

[M. Sarmad]

How dare you call my uncle a liar???? How idiotic can you get??? He was a decorated officer. Part of the very first diplomatic mission to USSR. Among founding staff of ISI. He dealt with propaganda / psychological aspects of warfare. You are nothing compared to him

And How dare you insult PA ??? Your uncle was a liar if he told you such a thing .. Or may be you are lying yourself (and you do that quite consistently) ... In any case , the stupid version of history you are peddling here , on the basis "My uncle in ISI told me so and so" is total BS ...... And I don`t expect any better from a chronic hater of PA like yourself ....

This is a persistent problem with you: rubbishing sources that go against your parochial views. Authenticity means nothing to you. When you loose an argument you start shouting about the other person being rhetorical. That is the sole reason why I do not engage with you.

An anonymous "Chak Bamu" making stupid claims on the basis of what some unknown person allegedly told him is no "reliable" source. . ... You talk about authenticity ??? The sole reason you don`t "engage" is that you don`t have the ability and knowledge required to carry out academic discussions .... You are good at one thing only .. i.e rhetoric

Were you there in 1954? Were you alive then? All you know is from your biased reading of your biased sources. Religion alone is never the sole determinant, there are always other factors that can not be ignored. This is the classic mistake that JI types make. Liberals / socialist types like you, on the other hand, are allergic to religion. Both these extremes can not explain history, can not come up with a satisfactory analysis, and certainly can not offer any workable solutions.

See ...Mere rhetoric once again ... You weren`t there in 1954 either ... Your stupid rants prove nothing

A while back yo referred me to Justic Munir report. I did read half of it. Guess what? Its a mixed bag and the way some 'roshan khayal' intellectual types use it is actually dishonest. Where it mainly criticizes Ahrari jamaat, dishonest 'analysts' stretch that criticism to all Islamists with glee. It faults Qadianis as being 'no angels themselves' for their provocations, but I have never known any rosha khayal intellectual to ever point that out. Funny isn't it?

Why did`t you reply then ?? Read it full (not half) and then come back for a discussion
...

Negative minds never produce positive results

I agree with you here ......And it Describes "Chak Bamu" quite well ...

 

[Dubious]

No its not Islamic/Hindu/Christian/Jain or anything. That's the point. People who did these things used Islam as an excuse.

The problem is the people who shut up and didnt retaliate it because the people who are able to (people on top) have not an iota of knowledge about Islam to debunk what had and is happening under the name of Islam

What are your views about "Hadood laws". Do you think they are fair? Do you think that they are 100% in accordance with what the Quran says? I don't think so. Blindly trying to follow religion has resulted in these kind of laws. In this day and age, mullahs are declaring DNA evidence unacceptable. Mullahs are insisting on getting eye witness for starting an Islamic month (moon sighting), when we have technologies to do this reliably.

Reading from this I believe you yourself are not sure what the Hudood laws is:

The Offence of Zina (Enforcement of Hudood) Ordinance 1979 described the offences of Zina(fornication and adultery) and zina bil jabbar (rape). They were defined separately in the Ordinance. Prior to the Women Protection (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act 2006, the Hudood Ordinance provided for two kinds of punishments: punishments under hadd under its section 8 or under Tazir under section 10.

Under hadd, "at least four Muslim adult male witnesses, about whom the court is satisfied, having regard to the requirements of tazkiyah al-shuhood, that they are truthful persons and abstain from major sins (kabair), give evidence as eye-witnesses of the act of penetration necessary to the offence."

No case could be proven under hadd due to the above stringent stipulation.

Punishments until now were awarded under the Tazir provision of the Hudood Ordinance.

The 2006 Act has now totally deleted zina bil jabbar (rape) from the Hudood Ordinance and inserted sections 375 and 376 for Rape and Punishment respectively in the PPC to replace it


Qazaf (false accusation of rape) then Qazaf Ordinance, Clause no. 3, Exemption no. 2 clearly states that if someone approaches the legal authorities with a rape complaint, she cannot be punished in case she is unable to present 4 witnesses. No court of law can be in its right mind to award such a punishment

@waz had a full explanation of the hudood ordinance...


As for the evidence....DNA can be provided but I agree it should also be counted as evidence...though in the case of rape the word should be enough if DNA is not found...

Who decides? The people of Pakistan, my dear. Not some uneducated, sectarian biased mullah sitting in his seminary.

When was the last time the people of Pakistan agreed on 1 thing? For heavens sake we cant even have Ramadan or Eid together and you want these very undecisive people to decide laws and fate of people?

Zardari was not a representative of people of Pakistan. He was just a glitch in the system. But the beauty of democracy is that, people learn from their mistakes.

We have NS back on the throne...who learned what? We have people questioning a man who wants to bring in change...people are afraid of change! In any form!