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What was india in 1835,How British destroyed India.

Just to clear the dust; here is the text of Macaulay's speech on 2nd Feb 1835:

MACAULAY'S MINUTE ON INDIAN EDUCATION
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2ND OF FEBRUARY, 1835

As it seems to be the opinion of some of the gentlemen who compose the Committee of Public Instruction, that the course which they have hitherto pursued was strictly prescribed by the British Parliament in 1813, and as, if that opinion be correct, a legislative act will be necessary to warrant a change, I have thought it right to refrain from taking any part in the preparation of the adverse statements which are now before us, and to reserve what I had to say on the subject till it should come before me as a member of the Council of India.

It does not appear to me that the Act of Parliament can, by any art of construction, be made to bear the meaning which has been assigned to it. It contains nothing about the particular languages or sciences which are to be studied. A sum is set apart "for the revival and promotion of literature and the encouragement of the learned natives of India, and for the introduction and promotion of a knowledge of the sciences among the inhabitants of the British territories." It is argued, or rather taken for granted, that by literature, the Parliament can have meant only Arabic and Sanscrit literature, that they never would have given the honorable appellation of "a learned native" to a native who was familiar with the poetry of Milton, the Metaphysics of Locke, and the Physics of Newton; but that they meant to designate by that name only such persons as might have studied in the sacred books of the Hindoos all the uses of cusa-grass, and all the mysteries of absorption into the Deity. This does not appear to be a very satisfactory interpretation. To take a parallel case; suppose that the Pacha of Egypt, a country once superior in knowledge to the nations of Europe but now sunk far below them, were to appropriate a sum or the purpose of "reviving and promoting literature, and encouraging learned natives of Egypt," would anybody infer that he meant the youth of his pachalic to give years to the study of hieroglyphics, to search into all the doctrines disguised under the fable of Osiris, and to ascertain with all possible accuracy the ritual with which cats and onions were anciently adored? Would he be justly charged with inconsistency, if, instead of employing his young subjects in deciphering obelisks, he were to order them to be instructed in the English and French languages, and in all the sciences to which those languages are the chief keys?

The words on which the supporters of the old system rely do not bear them out, and other words follow which seem to be quite decisive on the other side. This lac of rupees is set apart, not only for "reviving literature in India," the phrase on which their whole interpretation is founded, but also for "the introduction and promotion of a knowledge of the sciences among the inhabitants of the British territories,"--words which are alone sufficient to authorise all the changes for which I contend.

If the Council agree in my construction, no legislative Act will be necessary. If they differ from me, I will prepare a short Act rescinding that clause of the Charter of 1813, from which the difficulty arises.

The argument which I have been considering, affects only the form of proceeding. But the admirers of the Oriental system of education have used another argument, which, if we admit it to be valid, is decisive against all change. They conceive that the public faith is pledged to the present system, and that to alter the appropriation of any of the funds which have hitherto been spent in encouragmg the study of Arabic and Sanscrit, would be down-right spoliation. It is not easy to understand by what process of reasoning they can have arrived at this conclusion. The grants which are made from the public purse for the encouragement of literature differed in no respect from the grants which are made from the same purse for other objects of real or supposed utility. We found a sanatarium on a spot which we suppose to be healthy. Do we thereby pledge ourselves to keep a sanatarium there, if the result should not answer our expectation? We commence the erection of a pier. Is it a violation of the public faith to stop the works, if we afterwards see reason to believe that the building will be useless? The rights of property are undoubtedly sacred. But nothing endangers those rights so much as the practice, now unhappily too common, of attributing them to things to which they do not belong. Those who would impart to abuses the sanctity of property are in truth imparting to the institution of property the unpopularity and the fragility of abuses. If the Government has given to any person a formal assurance; nay, if the Government has exdted in any person's mind a reasonable expectation that he shall receive a certain income as a teacher or a learner of Sanscrit or Arabic, I would respect that person's pecuniary interests--I would rather err on the side of liberality to individuals than suffer the public faith to be called in question. But to talk of a Government pledging itself to teach certain languages and certain sciences, though those languages may become useless, though those sciences may be exploded, seems to me quite unmeaning. There is not a single word in any public instructions, from which it can be inferred that the Indian Government ever intended to give any pledge on this subject, or ever considered the destination of these funds as unalterably fixed. But had it been otherwise, I should have denied the competence of our predecessors to bind us by any pledge on such a subject. Suppose that a Government had in the last century enacted in the most sole,nn manner that all its subjects should, to the end of time, be inoculated for the smallpox: would that Government be bound to persist in the practice after Jenner's discovery? These promises, of which nobody claims the performance, and from which nobody can grant a release; these vested rights, which vest in nobody; this property without proprietors; this robbery, which makes nobody poorer, may be comprehended by persons of higher faculties than mine.--- I consider this plea merely as a set form of words, regularly used both in England and in India, in defence of every abuse for which no other plea can be set up.

I hold this lac of rupees to be quite at the disposal of the Governor General in Council, for the purpose of promoting learning in India, in any way which may be thought most advisable. I hold his Lordship to be quite as free to direct that it shall no longer be employed in encouraging Arabic and Sanscrit, as he is to direct that the reward for killing tigers in Mysore shall be diminished, that no more public money shall be expended on the chanting at the cathedral.

We now come to the gist of the matter. We have a fund to be employed as Government shall direct for the intellectual improvement of the people of this country. The simple question is, what is the most useful way of employing it?

All parties seem to be agreed on one point, that the dialects commonly spoken among the natives of this part of India, contain neither literary nor scientific information, and are, moreover, so poor and rude that, until they are enriched from some other quarter, it will not be easy to translate any valuable work into them. It seems to be admitted on all sides, that the intellectual improvement of those classes of the people who have the means of pursuing higher studies can at present be effected only by means of some language not vernacular amongst them.

What then shall that language be? One-half of the Committee maintain that it should be the English. The other half strongly recommend the Arabic and Sanscrit. The whole question seems to me to be, which language is the best worth knowing?

I have no knowledge of either Sanscrit or Arabic.--But I have done what I could to form a correct estimate of their value. I have read translations of the most celebrated Arabic and Sanscrit works. I have conversed both here and at home with men distinguished by their proficiency in the Eastern tongues. I am quite ready to take the Oriental learning at the valuation of the Orientalists themselves. I have never found one among them who could deny that a single shelf of a good European library was worth the whole native literature of India and Arabia. The intrinsic superiority of the Western literature is, indeed, fully admitted by those members of the Committee who support the Oriental plan of education.

It will hardly be disputed, I suppose, that the department of literature in which the Eastern writers stand highest is poetry. And I certainly never met with any Orientalist who ventured to maintain that the Arabic and Sanscrit poetry could be compared to that of the great European nations. But when we pass from works of imagination to works in which facts are recorded, and general principles investigated, the superiority of the Europeans becomes absolutely immeasurable. It is, I believe, no exaggeration to say, that all the historical information which has been collected from all the books written in the Sanscrit language is less valuable than what may be found in the most paltry abridgments used at preparatory schools in England. In every branch of physical or moral philosophy, the relative position of the two nations is nearly the same.

How, then, stands the case? We have to educate a people who cannot at present be educated by means of their mother-tongue. We must teach them some foreign language. The claims of our own language it is hardly necessary to recapitulate. It stands pre-eminent even among the languages of the west. It abounds with works of imagination not inferior to the noblest which Greece has bequeathed to us; with models of every species of eloquence; with historical compositions, which, considered merely as nar- ratives, have seldom been surpassed, and which, considered as vehicles of ethical and political instruction, have never been equalled; with just and lively representations of human life and human nature; with the most profound speculations on metaphysics, morals, government, jurisprudence, and trade; with full and correct information respecting every experimental science which tends to preserve the health, to increase the comfort, or to expand the intellect of man. Whoever knows that language has ready access to all the vast intellectual wealth, which all the wisest nations of the earth have created and hoarded in the course of ninety generations. It may safely be said, that the literature now extant in that language is of far greater value than all the literature which three hundred years ago was extant in all the languages of the world together. Nor is this all. In India, English is the language spoken by the ruling class. It is spoken by the higher class of natives at the seats of Government. It is likely to become the language of commerce throughout the seas of the East. It is the language of two great European communities which are rising, the one in the south of Africa, the other in Australasia; communities which are every year becoming more important, and more closely connected with our Indian empire. Whether we look at the intrinsic value of our literature, or at the particular situation of this country, we shall see the strongest reason to think that, of all foreign tongues, the English tongue is that which would be the most useful to our native subjects.

The question now before us is simply whether, when it is in our power to teach this language, we shall teach languages in which, by universal confession, there are no books on any subject which deserve to be compared to our own; whether, when we can teach European science, we shall teach systems which, by universal confession, whenever they differ from those of Europe, differ for the worse; and whether, when we can patronise sound Philosophy and true History, we shall countenance, at the public expense, medi- cal doctrines, which would disgrace an English farrier,--Astronomy, which would move laughter in girls at an English boarding school,--History, abounding with kings thirty feet high, and reigns thirty thousand years long,--and Geography, made up of seas of treacle and seas of butter.

We are not without experience to guide us. History furnishes several analogous cases, and they all teach the same lesson. There are in modern times, to go no further, two memorable instances of a great impulse given to the mind of a whole society,--of prejudices overthrown,--of knowledge diffused,--taste purified,--of arts and sciences planted in countries which had recently been ignorant and barbarous.

The first instance to which I refer, is the great revival of letters among the Western nations at the close of the fifteenth and the begi:ning of the sixteenth century. At that time almost every thing that was worth reading was contained in the writings of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Had our ancestors acted as the Committee of Public Instruction has hitherto acted; had they neglected the language of Cicero and Tacitus; had they confined their attention to the old dialects of our own island; had they print- ed nothing and taught nothing at the universities but Chronicles in Anglo-Saxon, and Romances in Norman-French, would England have been what she now is? What the Greek and Latin were to the contemporaries of More and Ascham, our tongue is to the people of India. The literature of England is now more valuable than that of classical antiquity. I doubt whether the Sanscrit literature be as valuable as that of our Saxon and Norman progenitors. In some departments,--in History, for example, I am certain that it is much less so.

Another instance may be said to be still before our eyes. Within the last hundred and twenty years, a nation which has previously been in a state as barbarous as that in which our ancestors were before the crusades, has gradually emerged from the ignorance in which it was sunk, and has taken its place among civilized communities.--I speak of Russia. There is now in that country a large educated class, abounding with persons fit to serve the state in the highest ftmctions, and in no wise inferior to the most accomplished men who adorn the best circles of Paris and London. There is reason to hope that this vast empire, which in the time of our grandfathers was probably behind the Punjab, may, in the time of our grandchildren, be pressing close on France and Britain in the career of improvement. And how was this change effected? Not by flattering national prejudices: not by feeding the mind of the young Muscovite with the old women's stories which his rude fathers had believed: not by filling his head with lying legends about St. Nicholas: not by encouraging him to study the great question, whether the world was or was not created on the 13th of September: not by calling him "a learned native," when he has mastered all these points of knowledge: but by teaching him those foreign languages in which the greatest mass of information had been laid up, and thus putting all that information within his reach. The languages of Western Europe civilized Russia. I cannot doubt that they will do for the Hindoo what they have done for the Tartar.

And what are the arguments against that course which seems to be alike recommended by theory and by experience? It is said that we ought to secure the cooperation of the native public, and that we can do this only by teaching Sanscrit and Arabic.

I can by no means admit that when a nation of high intellectual attainments undertakes to Superintend the education of a nation comparatively ignorant, the learners are absolutely to prescribe the course which is to be taken by the teachers. It is not necessary, however, to say any thing on this subject. For it is proved by unanswerable evidence that we are not at present securing the Cooperation of the natives. It would be bad enough to consult their intellectual taste at the expense of their intellectual health. But we are consulting neither,--we are withholding from them the learning for which they are craving, we are forcing on them the mock-learning which they nauseate.

This is proved by the fact that we are forced to pay our Arabic and Sanscrit students, while those who learn Engiish are wiling to pay us. All the declamations in the worid about the love and reverence of the natives for their sacred dialects will never, in the mind of any impartial person, outweigh the undisputed fact, that we cannot find, in all our vast empire, a single student who will let us teach him those dialects unless we will pay him.

I have now before me the accounts of the Madrassa for one month,-in the month of December, 1833. The Arabic students appear to have been seventy-seven in number. All receive stipends from the public. The whole amount paid to them is above 500 rupees a month. On the other side of the account stands the following item: Deduct amount realized from the out-students of English for the months of May, June and July last, 103 rupees.

I have been told that it is merely from want of local experience that I am surprised at these phenomena, and that it is not the fashion for students in India to study at their own charges. This only confirms me in my opinion. Nothing is more certain than that it never can in any part of the world be necessary to pay men for doing what they think pleasant and profitable. India is no exception to this rule. The people of India do not require to be paid for eating rice when they are hungry, or for wearing woollen cloth in the cold season. To come nearer to the case before us, the children who learn their letters and a little elementary Arithmetic from the village school-master are not paid by him. He is paid for teaching them. Why then is it necessary to pay people to learn Sanscrit and Arabic? Evidently because it is universally felt that the Sanscrit and Arabic are languages, the knowledge of which does not compensate for the trouble of acquiring them. On all such subjects the state of the market is the decisive test.

Other evidence is not wanting, if other evidence were required. A petition was presented last year to the Committee by several ex-students of the Sanscrit College. The petitioners stated that they had studied in the college ten or twelve years; that they had made themselves acquainted with Hindoo literature and science; that they had received certificates of proficiency: and what is the fruit of all this! "Notwithstanding such testimonials," they say, "we have but little prospect of bettering our condition without the kind assistance of your Honorable Committee, the indifference with which we are generally looked upon by our countrymen leaving no hope of encouragement and assistance from them." They therefore beg that they may be recommended to the Governor General for places under the Government, not places of high dignity or emolument, but such as may just enable them to exist. "We want means," they say, "for a decent living, and for our progressive improvement, which, however, we cannot obtain without the assistance of Government, by whom we have been educated and maintained from childhood." They conclude by representing, very pathetically, that they are sure that it was never the intention of Government, after behaving so liberally to them during their education, to abandon them to destitution and neglect.

I have been used to see petitions to Government for compensation. All these petitions, even the most unreasonable of them, proceeded on the supposition that some loss had been sustained- that some wrong had been inflicted. These are surely the first petitioners who ever demanded compensation for having been educated gratis, for having been supported by the public during twelve years, and then sent forth into the world well furnished with literature and science. They represent their education as an injury which gives them a claim on the Government for redress, as an injury for which the stipends paid to them during the infliction were a very inadequate compensation. And I doubt not that they are in the right. They have wasted the best years of life in learning what procures for them neither bread nor respect. Surely we might, with advantage, have saved the cost of making these persons useless and miserable; surely, men may be brought up to be burdens to the public and objects of contempt to their neighbours at a somewhat smaller charge to the state. But such is our policy. We do not even stand neuter in the contest between truth and falsehood. We are not content to leave the natives to the influence of their own hereditary prejudices. To the natural difficulties which obstruct the progress of sound science in the East, we add fresh difficulties of our own making. Bounties and premiums, such as ought not to be given even for the propagation of truth, we lavish on false taste and false philosophy.

By acting thus we create the very evil which we fear. We are making that opposition which we do not find. What we spend on the Arabic and Sanscrit colleges is not merely a dead loss to the cause of truth; it is bounty-money paid to raise up champions of error. It goes to form a nest, not merely of helpless place-hunters, but of bigots prompted alike by passion and by interest to raise a cry against every usetul scheme of education. If there should be any opposition among the natives to the change which I recommend, that opposition will be the effect of our own system. It will be headed by persons supported by our stipends and trained in our colleges. The longer we persevere in our present course, the more formidable will that opposition be. It will be every year reinforced by recruits whom we are paying. From the native society left to itself, we have no difficulties to apprehend; all the murmuring will come from that oriental interest which we have, by artificial means, called into being, and nursed into strength.

There is yet another fact, which is alone sufficient to prove that the feeling of the native public, when left to itself, is not such as the supporters of the old system represent it to be. The Committee have thought fit to lay out above a lac of rupees in printing Arabic and Sanscrit books. Those books find no purchasers. It is very rarely that a single copy is disposed of. Twenty-three thousand volumes, most of them folios and quartos, fill the libraries, or rather the lumber-rooms, of this body. The Committee contrive to get rid of some portion of their vast stock of oriental literature by giving books away. But they cannot give so fast as they print. About twenty thousand rupees a year are spent in adding fresh masses of waste paper to a hoard which, I should think, is already sufficiently ample. During the last three years, about sixty thousand rupees have been expended in this manner. The sale of Arabic and Sanscrit books, during those three years, has not yielded quite one thousand rupees. In the mean time the School- book Society is selling seven or eight thousand English volumes every year, and not only pays the expenses of printing, but realises a profit of 20 per cent. on its outlay.

The fact that the Hindoo law is to be learned chiefly from Sans- crit books, and the Mahomedan law from Arabic books, has been much insisted on, but seems not to bear at all on the question. We are commanded by Parliament to ascertam and digest the laws of India. The assistance of a law Commission has been given to us for that purpose. As soon as the code is promulgated, the Shasster and the Hedaya will be useless to a Moonsiff or Sudder Ameen. I hope and trust that before the boys who are now entering at the Madrassa and the Sanscrit college have completed their studies, this great work will be finished. It would be manifestly absurd to educate the rising generation with a view to a state of things which we mean to alter before they reach manhood.

But there is yet another argument which seems even more untenable. It is said that the Sanscrit and Arabic are the languages in which the sacred books of a hundred millions of people are written, and that they are, on that account, entitled to peculiar encouragement. Assuredly it is the duty of the British Government in India to be not only tolerant, but neutral on all religious questions. But to encourage the study of a literature admitted to be of small intrinsic value, only because that literature incuIcates the most serious errors on the most important subjects, is a course hardly reconcileable with reason, with morality, or even with that very neutrality which ought, as we all agree, to be sacredly pre- served. It is confessed that a language is barren of useful know- ledge. We are to teach it because it is fruittul of monstrous superstitions. We are to teach false History, false Astronomy, false Medicine, because we find them in company with a false religion. We abstain, and I trust shall always abstain, from giving any public encouragement to those who are engaged in the work of converting natives to Christianity. And while we act thus, can we reasonably and decently bribe men out of the revenues of the state to waste their youth in learning how they are to purify themselves after touching an ***, or what text of the Vedas they are to repeat to expiate the crime of killing a goat?

It is taken for granted by the advocates of Oriental learning, that no native of this country can possibly attain more than a mere smattering of English. They do not attempt to prove this; but they perpetually insinuate it. They designate the education which their opponents recommend as a mere spelling book education. They assume it as undenlable, that the question is between a profound knowledge of Hindoo and Arabian literature and science on the one side, and a superficial knowledge of the rudiments of English on the other. This is not merely an assumption, but an assumption contrary to all reason and experience. We know that foreigners of all nations do learn our language sufficiently to have access to all the most abstruse knowledge which it contains, sufficiently to relish even the more delicate graces of our most idiomatic writers. There are in this very town natives who are quite competent to discuss political or scientific questions with fluency and precision in the English language. I have heard the gentlemen with a liberality and an intelligence which would do credit to any member of the Committee of Public Instruction. Indeed it is unusual to find, even in the literary circles of the continent, any foreigner who can express himself in English with so much facility and correctness as we find in many Hindoos. Nobody, I suppose, will contend that English is so difficult to a Hindoo as Greek to an Englishman. Yet an intelligent English youth, in a much smaller number of years than our unfortunate pupils pass at the Sanscrit college, becomes able to read, to enjoy, and even to imitate, not unhappily, the compositions of the best Greek Authors. Less than half the time which enables an English youth to read Herodotus and Sophocles, ought to enable a Hindoo to read Hume and Milton.

To sum up what I have said, I think it clear that we are not fettered by the Act of Parliament of 1813; that we are not fettered by any pledge expressed or implied; that we are free to employ our fiinds as we choose; that we ought to employ them in teaching what is best worth knowing; that English is better worth knowing than Sanscrit or Arabic; that the natives are desirous to be taught English, and are not desirous to be taught Sanscrit or Arabic; that neither as the languages of law, nor as the languages of religion, have the Sanscrit and Arabic any peculiar claim to our engagement; that it is possible to make natives of this country thoroughly good English scholars, and that to this end our efforts ought to be directed.

In one point I fully agree with the gentlemen to whose general views I am opposed. I feel with them, that it is impossible for us, with our limited means, to attempt to educate the body of the people. We must at present do our best to form a class who may be interpreters between us and the millions whom we govern; a class of persons, Indian in blood and colour, but English in taste, in opinions, in morals, and in intellect. To that class we may leave it to refine the vernacular dialects of the country, to enrich those dialects with terms of science borrowed from the Western nomenclature, and to render them by degrees fit vehicles for conveying knowledge to the great mass of the population.

I would strictly respect all existing interests. I would deal even generously with all individuals who have had fair reason to expect a pecuniary provision. But I would strike at the root of the bad system which has hitherto been fostered by us. I would at once stop the printing of Arabic and Sanscrit books, I would abolish the Madrassa and the Sanscrit college at Calcutta. Benares is the great seat of Brahmanical learning; Delhi, of Arabic learning. If we retain the Sanscrit college at Benares and the Mahometan college at Delhi, we do enough, and much more than enough in my opinion, for the Eastern languages. If the Benares and Delhi colleges should be retained, I would at least recommend that no stipends shall be given to any students who may hereafter repair thither, but that the people shall be left to make their own choice between the rival systems of education without being bribed by us to learn what they have no desire to know. The funds which would thus be placed at our disposal would enable us to give larger encouragement to the Hindoo college at Calcutta, and to establish in the principal cities throughout the Presidencies of Fort William and Agra schools in which the English language might be well and thoroughly taught.

If the decision of his Lordship in Council should be such as I anticipate, I shall enter on the performance of my duties with the greatest zeal and alacrity. If, on the other hand, it be the opinion of the Government that the present system ought to remain unchanged, I beg that I may be permitted to retire from the chair of the Committee. I feel that I could not be of the smallest use there--I feel, also, that I should be lending my countenance to what I firmly believe to be a mere delusion. I believe that the present system tends, not to accelerate the progress of truth, but to delay the natural death of expiring errors. I conceive that we have at present no right to the respectable name of a Board of Public Instruction. We are a Board for wasting public money, for printing books which are of less value than the paper on which they are printed was while it was blank; for giving artificial encouragement to absurd history, absurd metaphysics, absurd physics, absurd theology; for raising up a breed of scholars who find their scholarship an encumbrance and a blemish, who live on the public while they are receiving their education, and whose education is so utterly useless to them that when they have received it they must either starve or live on the public all the rest of their lives. Entertaining these opinions, I am naturally desirous to decline all share in the responsibility of a body, which unless it alters its whole mode of proceeding, I must consider not merely as useless, but as positively noxious.


NOTE: The Above speech (or minute in his own words) ia all about setting up an English educational system in India and propagating education in the English language.

Hello Sir, I have some arguments to discuss with you regarding the piece of paper we had about Lord Macaulays’,that is, “it is a page of an old book and we have scan of it and that book would be around 100 to 150 years old, if we have a look on the way of writing on this page and the photo of Lord taken, like light of flash on the face of Lord for taking his picture etc, which looks like pictures was taken at least 150 years before by a very old camera and the way of writing on this page is also very old.” And it was also argued to me that whatever material you presented to us was written on internet/ word page which would be the new story, either by someone or by British government itself as they keep modifying history on time to time to prove they were good with their colonies.

We would welcome your comment on these arguments. thanks
 
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Hello Sir, I have some arguments to discuss with you regarding the piece of paper we had about Lord Macaulays’,that is, “it is a page of an old book and we have scan of it which would be around 100 to 150 years old, if we have a look on the way of writing on this page and the photo of Lord taken, like light of flush on the face of Lord for taking his picture etc, which looks like pictures was taken at least 150 years before by a very old camera and the way of writing on this page is also very old.” And it was argued to me that whatever material you presented to us was written on internet/ word page which would be the new story, either by someone or by British government itself as they keep modifying history on time to time to prove they were good with their colonies.

We would welcome your comment on these arguments. thanks

Don't be silly, that is the official record of the speech as opposed to what someone has obviously printed. There is little or no proof that the scan is of an old document, that is obviously not even an official document because photographs are not imposed on such & there quite clearly is writing in a vernacular language. As far as anyone knows, Tamil was not used as a official language by the British, this is quite clearly a created publication by vested interests. You still haven't answered the use of the spelling "caliber" which is never used in British & Indian English.

The British keep their documents, whether good or bad as they were, they are keen on keeping historical material intact. If you claim that it is a fraud or has been changed, prove it. You are unable to show proof that the article you presented is genuine or even worthy of consideration merely stating that it looks old as if that were an acceptable argument. You then say it looks 100-150 years old without producing proof allowing for a gap of 50 years for admissibility. You present no case, yet you want higher proof higher than official records to refute your concocted story.

You have also been talking about patriotism as if you were the sole repository of it. We do not need your certificates on any matter, least of all on patriotism, Pointing out distortions, deceits & lies does not make us less patriotic only more aware of history & less gullible.
 
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It has truth, Lord Macaulays might be very impressed with the richest nation of the earth that time. which can also be confirmed by the official website of Indian government as below:-

Interesting Facts about India
Interesting Facts about India - My India, My Pride - Know India: National Portal of India
(this is the government website of India)

India never invaded any country in her last 100000 years of history.
When many cultures were only nomadic forest dwellers over 5000 years ago, Indians established Harappan culture in Sindhu Valley (Indus Valley Civilization)
The name 'India' is derived from the River Indus, the valleys around which were the home of the early settlers. The Aryan worshippers referred to the river Indus as the Sindhu.
The Persian invaders converted it into Hindu. The name 'Hindustan' combines Sindhu and Hindu and thus refers to the land of the Hindus.
Chess was invented in India.
Algebra, Trigonometry and Calculus are studies, which originated in India.
The 'Place Value System' and the 'Decimal System' were developed in India in 100 B.C.

The World's First Granite Temple is the Brihadeswara Temple at Tanjavur, Tamil Nadu. The shikhara of the temple is made from a single 80-tonne piece of granite. This magnificent temple was built in just five years, (between 1004 AD and 1009 AD) during the reign of Rajaraja Chola.
India is the largest democracy in the world, the 7th largest Country in the world, and one of the most ancient civilizations.
The game of Snakes & Ladders was created by the 13th century poet saint Gyandev. It was originally called 'Mokshapat'. The ladders in the game represented virtues and the snakes indicated vices. The game was played with cowrie shells and dices. In time, the game underwent several modifications, but its meaning remained the same, i.e. good deeds take people to heaven and evil to a cycle of re-births.
The world's highest cricket ground is in Chail, Himachal Pradesh. Built in 1893 after leveling a hilltop, this cricket pitch is 2444 meters above sea level.
India has the largest number of Post Offices in the world.
The largest employer in India is the Indian Railways, employing over a million people.
The world's first university was established in Takshila in 700 BC. More than 10,500 students from all over the world studied more than 60 subjects. The University of Nalanda built in the 4th century was one of the greatest achievements of ancient India in the field of education.

Ayurveda is the earliest school of medicine known to mankind. The Father of Medicine, Charaka, consolidated Ayurveda 2500 years ago.


India was one of the richest countries till the time of British rule in the early 17th Century. Christopher Columbus, attracted by India's wealth, had come looking for a sea route to India when he discovered America by mistake. :tup:
The Art of Navigation & Navigating was born in the river Sindh over 6000 years ago. The very word Navigation is derived from the Sanskrit word 'NAVGATIH'. The word navy is also derived from the Sanskrit word 'Nou'.
Bhaskaracharya rightly calculated the time taken by the earth to orbit the Sun hundreds of years before the astronomer Smart. According to his calculation, the time taken by the Earth to orbit the Sun was 365.258756484 days.

The value of "pi" was first calculated by the Indian Mathematician Budhayana, and he explained the concept of what is known as the Pythagorean Theorem. He discovered this in the 6th century, long before the European mathematicians.
Algebra, Trigonometry and Calculus also originated in India.Quadratic Equations were used by Sridharacharya in the 11th century. The largest numbers the Greeks and the Romans used were 106 whereas Hindus used numbers as big as 10*53 (i.e. 10 to the power of 53) with specific names as early as 5000 B.C.during the Vedic period.Even today, the largest used number is Terra: 10*12(10 to the power of 12).
Until 1896, India was the only source of diamonds in the world
(Source: Gemological Institute of America).

The Baily Bridge is the highest bridge in the world. It is located in the Ladakh valley between the Dras and Suru rivers in the Himalayan mountains. It was built by the Indian Army in August 1982.
Sushruta is regarded as the Father of Surgery. Over2600 years ago Sushrata & his team conducted complicated surgeries like cataract, artificial limbs, cesareans, fractures, urinary stones, plastic surgery and brain surgeries.
Usage of anaesthesia was well known in ancient Indian medicine. Detailed knowledge of anatomy, embryology, digestion, metabolism,physiology, etiology, genetics and immunity is also found in many ancient Indian texts.
India exports software to 90 countries.
The four religions born in India - Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and Sikhism, are followed by 25% of the world's population.
Jainism and Buddhism were founded in India in 600 B.C. and 500 B.C. respectively.
Islam is India's and the world's second largest religion.
There are 300,000 active mosques in India, more than in any other country, including the Muslim world.
The oldest European church and synagogue in India are in the city of Cochin. They were built in 1503 and 1568 respectively.
Jews and Christians have lived continuously in India since 200 B.C. and 52 A.D. respectively
The largest religious building in the world is Angkor Wat, a Hindu Temple in Cambodia built at the end of the 11th century.
The Vishnu Temple in the city of Tirupathi built in the 10th century, is the world's largest religious pilgrimage destination. Larger than either Rome or Mecca, an average of 30,000 visitors donate $6 million (US) to the temple everyday.
Sikhism originated in the Holy city of Amritsar in Punjab. Famous for housing the Golden Temple, the city was founded in 1577.
Varanasi, also known as Benaras, was called "the Ancient City" when Lord Buddha visited it in 500 B.C., and is the oldest, continuously inhabited city in the world today.
India provides safety for more than 300,000 refugees originally from Sri Lanka, Tibet, Bhutan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh, who escaped to flee religious and political persecution.
His Holiness, the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists, runs his government in exile from Dharmashala in northern India.
Martial Arts were first created in India, and later spread to Asia by Buddhist missionaries.
Yoga has its origins in India and has existed for over 5,000 years.


Interesting Facts about India - My India, My Pride - Know India: National Portal of India


more than 80 percent of the facts you mentioned here are regarding Pakistan....stop stealing Pakistani history and making yourselves fools........takshila/taxila is in Pakistani Punjab...indus rivers flows in Pakistan.....indus valley is in Pakistan...indus civilization flourished in Pakistan and represents Pakistan.....Silk route initiated in Pakistan.....Gandhara Civilization flourished in Pakistan....8000 year old Mahergerh civilization flourished in Pakistan.......three mountain ranges of Himalayas,hindukush and karakoram meet in Pakistan...............dont tell me Pakistan was a part of india before 1947....Pakistan was a part of british empire.......and before the britishers came and established this empire...india was never a one unit country....the land u call india was composed up to small kingdoms with their own rulers and armies....so stop giving this impression that before 1947...Pakistan was a part of india and india was one country being ruled by some prime minister under a democracy.

its interesting how your propoganda ministry forgot to mention 8000 year old mahergerh civilization too.....keep fooling your generations....this what happens when u dont have anything to be proud of...then u steal history of neighbouring countries.:lol:
 
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Don't buy this revisionist rubbish. Indians were in a terrible wretched state before the British came except for a handful of people & I mean a handful (a few hundreds). The vast majority were poor & could barely eke out a living. The British didn't much improve matters but they weren't the cause.

I got something for you about Indian economy in 17th century. Please have a look and make a comment. And here, as population of India was also very less so we would expect that per capita income of Indians would be very high that time w.r.t. rest of the world that time as per the argument given below. Please make your comment on it. Thanks


During the Mughal period (1526–1858) India went from the first to the second-largest economy in the world. The gross domestic product of India in the 16th century was estimated at about 25.1% of the world economy.[9]

According to economic historian Angus Maddison in his book Contours of the world economy, 1-2030 AD: essays in macro-economic history, India had the world's largest economy during the years 1 AD and 1000 AD.[7]

Economic history of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An estimate of India's pre-colonial economy puts the annual revenue of Emperor Akbar's treasury in 1600 at £17.5 million (in contrast to the entire treasury of Great Britain two hundred years later in 1800, which totalled £16 million).[citation needed] The gross domestic product of Mughal India in 1600 was estimated at about 24.3% the world economy, the second largest in the world.[9]

An estimate by Angus Maddison argues that India's share of the world income went from 27.3% in 1700[9

In the 18th century, Mughals were replaced by the Maratha Empire in much of India, Maratha rule expanded to almost 2.8 million km². While the other small regional states who were mostly late Mughal tributary states such as the Nawabs in the north and the Nizam in south India remained. Tax administration system in India was collected by officers of the Maratha empire, however, the Mughal tax administration system was left largely intact. By this time India again had the largest economy in the world, with a (27.3%) share of world GDP, followed by Manchu China and Western Europe.[9] Nevertheless, a devastating famine broke out in the eastern coast in early 1770s killing 5 per cent of the national population.[10]

Economic history of India - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
with these economic data’s, I find that page with the statement of Lord Macaulay’s very right stating wealth about India in 1835. No wonder people were impressed with the wealth of India and were crazy to find India in 17th century and this way America was discovered, as per the government website of India……………….

India was one of the richest countries till the time of British rule in the early 17th Century. Christopher Columbus, attracted by India's wealth, had come looking for a sea route to India when he discovered America by mistake. :tup:

Interesting Facts about India - My India, My Pride - Know India: National Portal of India
 
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I got something for you about Indian economy in 17th century. Please have a look and make a comment. And here, as population of India was also very less so we would expect that per capita income of Indians would be very high that time w.r.t. rest of the world that time as per the argument given below. Please make your comment on it. Thanks

Have read enough about the Indian economy during the Mughals and can tell you that the wealth was concentrated in the hands of the very few. India's population was not really less as a percentage & everything I have said bears out. A huge percentage of the country's GDP was in the hands of very few, numbering 100's while the vast majority were in a condition of extreme poverty. If you really want to know more, i would suggest you read "The Mughal world" by Abraham Eraly. It would quickly disabuse of any fancy notions you might have.
 
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Have read enough about the Indian economy during the Mughals and can tell you that the wealth was concentrated in the hands of the very few. India's population was not really less as a percentage & everything I have said bears out. A huge percentage of the country's GDP was in the hands of very few, numbering 100's while the vast majority were in a condition of extreme poverty. If you really want to know more, i would suggest you read "The Mughal world" by Abraham Eraly. It would quickly disabuse of any fancy notions you might have.

Dear Sir, we all know that things were tough in past and We just say that Indian nationals were richer than rest of the world till the Lord Macaulay's visited India in 1835 so he might be impressed with Indian wealth, a logic?

and what Britian was in past? please make few arguments on the report given below also. thanks

A History of Poverty

Poverty in the Middle Ages

Not much was written about poverty in the Middle Ages. The poor were not considered important. Much more was written about the rich and powerful.
However in the Middle Ages poverty was common. England was basically a subsistence economy where each village made most of the things it needed and most of the population were subsistence farmers. They grew as much food as their families needed (if they were lucky).Surprisingly, perhaps, examining Medieval skeletons shows that most people had an adequate diet, except in times of famine.

However life must have been very hard for the disabled. There were many disabled beggars in Medieval towns.

The Church tried to help the poor. The Church taught that it was a Christian duty to give to the poor. In monasteries a monk called an almoner gave alms to the poor. However in the Middle Ages fearful poverty was an inescapable part of life.
Things did improve after the Black Death of 1348-49. In England about one third of the population died. Afterwards there was a shortage of workers so wages rose. In the 15th century wage labourers were better off then in the 13th century.
 
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Dear Sir, we all know that things were tough in past and We just say that Indian nationals were richer than rest of the world till the Lord Macaulay's visited India in 1835 so he might be impressed with Indian wealth, a logic?

Indian people as a whole were not richer, a handful were richer. there was poverty in the west, that is irrelevant to the argument being made that Indians were living a life of luxury till the British came. Lord Macaulay came to India in 1833 & he was from the elite, there is not much in the lives of ordinary Indians that would have impressed him just like the lives of ordinary Britishers would not have.
 
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Will these jokers ever let us be? First we had left wing revisionists who cooked up Indian history after our independence and now, for the last few decades we see a right wing backlash which is trying to rewrite Indian history. Only this present ongoing effort is far more insidious and deadly as it cloaks the whole exercise in the garb of nationalism, pseudo patriotism and so is more readily acceptable especially to the young, foolish and impressionable.

The other day, my child told me that Sanskrit was the mother of all European languages!!! It said so in his SST text book. I spent about am hour to explain to the child that sometimes even books can be wrong and that Sanskrit was a great language which gave birth to most Indian languages except for the four south Indian languages which evolved more or less on their own but were nonetheless influenced by Sanskrit. That there are certain similarities between Sanskrit and some central Asian and East European languages which is natural as people, traders and scholars traveled and languages tend to influence each other. The point I am making here is that the revisionists are at it even as we speak and this is dangerous.

I am a patriotic Indian and I love my country but that does not mean that I am an idiot. I for one would not wish for my kids to grow up into bigoted idiots. We accuse Pakistani historians and social scientists of cooking up stories and distorting history in order to justify Pakistan's existence as distinct from a common Indian identity. How are we any different from them?

The document claiming to the transcript of Lord Macaulay's address is undoubtedly a fake and has been circulated to serve a particular revisionist agenda by fooling and misguiding people.
 
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Will these jokers ever let us be? First we had left wing revisionists who cooked up Indian history after our independence and now, for the last few decades we see a right wing backlash which is trying to rewrite Indian history. Only this present ongoing effort is far more insidious and deadly as it cloaks the whole exercise in the garb of nationalism, pseudo patriotism and so is more readily acceptable especially to the young, foolish and impressionable.

The other day, my child told me that Sanskrit was the mother of all European languages!!! It said so in his SST text book. I spent about am hour to explain to the child that sometimes even books can be wrong and that Sanskrit was a great language which gave birth to most Indian languages except for the four south Indian languages which evolved more or less on their own but were nonetheless influenced by Sanskrit. That there are certain similarities between Sanskrit and some central Asian and East European languages which is natural as people, traders and scholars traveled and languages tend to influence each other. The point I am making here is that the revisionists are at it even as we speak and this is dangerous.

I am a patriotic Indian and I love my country but that does not mean that I am an idiot. I for one would not wish for my kids to grow up into bigoted idiots. We accuse Pakistani historians and social scientists of cooking up stories and distorting history in order to justify Pakistan's existence as distinct from a common Indian identity. How are we any different from them?

The document claiming to the transcript of Lord Macaulay's address is undoubtedly a fake and has been circulated to serve a particular revisionist agenda by fooling and misguiding people.

Sadly, there are a lot of people who buy this BS. If you try to impart some sense in them, you'll be seen as the hater of ancient Indian culture. Being a Tamil, I have to deal with Tamil revisionists in addition which is even more vicious as it instills a false sense of superiority in Tamils .
 
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read my posts and dont steal Pakistani history...be proud of what existed in your land.....i.e khajuraho civilization that attracts israeli tourists. :lol:

its is a combined history(i know you are a madrasa educated pakistani),the people from the indus region migrated to the south and the east,the region which is now afghanistan and pakistan were the entry point to the region so it is natural that they settled first there and then eventually went downwards
same thing happened with islam as it was the entry point,it settled there first and then made its way downwards
 
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you are lying sir....its not shared....taxila is in Pakistan....indus river is in Pakistan...silk road is in Pakistan...Gandhara was in Pakistani land...so was 8000 year old mahergerh civilization.........you can continue to fool your generation.....you indians are thieves....stealing foreign history when u dont have anything to be proud of......Sindh province is in Pakistan not in india......so simple..........

you are from the land of kamasutra and khajuraho and you should be proud of it instead of associating yourself with indus river that flows in a foreign land called Pakistan...:agree:

check the map kid :) it flows through pakistan via india....evil bharatis can do anything with indus :)
 
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you are lying sir....its not shared....taxila is in Pakistan....indus river is in Pakistan...silk road is in Pakistan...Gandhara was in Pakistani land...so was 8000 year old mahergerh civilization.........you can continue to fool your generation.....you indians are thieves....stealing foreign history when u dont have anything to be proud of......Sindh province is in Pakistan not in india......so simple..........

you are from the land of kamasutra and khajuraho and you should be proud of it instead of associating yourself with indus river that flows in a foreign land called Pakistan...:agree:

as i said cannot change a mind of a madrasa educated pakistani,the religion which was prevelent in indus region was hinduism so i dont get where you get that islam was practised in indus region in ancient times
 
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dont lie sir...........as i said indus valley is in Pakistan....Sindh is in Pakistan.............

you grow up and claim whats in india not Pakistan.cant get more simple

mate one last time for you,india referred to in the history is the indian sub continent and its inhabitants,the people in the souther region are descendents of the people from indus region as it was the only entry point into india
the sites are claimed by respective countries but ideologically we have a shared history
 
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and this proves you are right? do you have record while this is nothing but a piece of paper and its scan? "Blind patriotism is a disease." America was nothing but similar to Africa in 17th century which was discovered in search of Golden Bird India, and the wealth were located in Asia only that time. have a look on the report by Indian government also. Thanks

Both this fake and the hilarious so-called report by Indian government are equally ridiculous. We don't need falsified history and exaggerated facts to gain self-esteem. Please stop spreading this nonsense.
 
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