What twin engine Jet Fighter Suits PAF Doctrine?

[The Eagle]

US weapons are vastly superior to anything out there. No doubt, that F-16 Blk-52 and associated weapons have pushed PAF many notches above from where it was. In fact, the newly acquired capability was instrumental in our anti terrorist operations in FATA area. There is a reason that Pakistan has shown interest follow on order. Those who use these machines are fully aware of what it can do.

However, some US politicians are over playing their hand when it comes to fulfilling needs of their allies. Take for example AH-1Z deal. Pakistan needed attack helicopters badly in its current operation. Request for AH-1Z remained lying with US for some three years. Pakistan had to turn to Chinese and Russians for its needs before AH-1Z was cleared. This does not invoke confidence and there will always be players eager to bite into US share of defense market. Defense acquisition from US these days takes so much time that some traditional buyers like UAE and KSA have procured Russian and Chinese weapons. Sure they do not equal US quality but then they are half the price and are readily available. Same sentiment was resonated by a US general after he visited Gulf countries. You guys need to make the process simpler and swift. Recent statements of PAF chief indicates that we are negotiating for more F-16s but he says it will take time. Why should it take time for a weapon that is already cleared and sold to Pakistan? There can always be arrangements to ensure sensitive technology is not leaked and I'm sure PAF will agree to reasonable demands. But if it has to wait three years to place an order while India has finalized Rafale deal with France, what confidence does it give to Pakistan? F-16s are beautiful machines and its latest variant 'Viper' can hold its own against Rafale. I'm also pretty sure that deal will eventually go through. What I don't get is initial hesitation in political quarters. Regional balance is already heavily in favor of India. Few F-16s, 15s, 35s aren't going to tilt it on favour of Pakistan. But when provided, they will ensure this region stays away from war triggered by imbalance. Last thing world needs right now is a war between two nuclear neighbors. We already have a lot to deal with in today's world.

Dear, to add-on, as per my opinion.

West, almost all the west including US, are not in favour of stronger Pakistan or Head Par with India forever. The words Regional Balance in the name of Pakistan with India, are no mean to them. They don't care if the balance in shape of weapons becomes unstable between these 2 countries or tilts towards India. in subject of Pakistan, all they worries, is growth of Pakistan in nuclear sector and starting the self reliance program, even if it is at the lowest scale but indeed it's a good sign and that's where they came showing there fake balance interest theory and lecturing of Keep Calm We Will Make It Balanced as they know that where they were thinking to corner China, there is Pakistan in bold words. They are working on 2 different policies and I am sure most on the second policy:-

1. India for China but then become aware now that India alone cannot corner China (Day Dreams) just because the one need to think beyond selfishness so cornering China like this policy wouldn't work all alone (A bad choice for the Host of this policy) and try to dent Russia economically with the help of India (India buying Western Gadgets) is a sign.

so

2. Influence in the region and try to cut China's ties as well as Russia and that's where Pakistan become a must because, this policy makes all happy, no signs of bragging yet try to snatch friends at first place (a nuclear stable and growing friend) by doing business specially in arms category by showing the world that "look we are trying to make it balance so all happy now".

US tells India that look you will be dead and need protection so buy this and you will be safe. On other hand to Pakistan, look at India they are preparing for war anytime so here what you can buy (counter to threat but not very advance or head par gadgets) so India wouldn't dare. In the end tell the world that US is in favor of balancing. Good Business and Profit.

Why West or US never offered the best infrastructure, education and human needed gadgets and equipment par with them for growth of this region rather lobbied every single country to buy them arms and participate the weapons competition and that's where the regional balance issues appeared.

So this time, Pakistan being a responsible country and one of the Islamic Nuclear Country, should exercise like one of the Directors of Board and to do so, we must not only rely only on West or US. To make it balance, this time move towards China or Russia so world will see how we made it balance that we have Western Tech in inventory yet procured from Eastern as well.

Pakistan Zindabad

 

[Lightning Soul]

* in the end better to get SU*35 or J-16s which don't need much of expensive upgrads & are ready for lock & fire ?


J-16 Multirole Fighter

The J-16 strike fighter is based off of the Su-30MKK Flanker. Having a two person crew allows for a dedicated weapons sensor officer, seated in the cockpit's rear, to focus on finding targets, managing electronic warfare and controlling precision guided munitions.

This addition offers a wider set of options for Chinese military planners. Multirole fighters like the Tornado IDS, F-15E Strike Eagle and now the J-16 are well suited for the challenges of high tech conventional warfare, by combining the air combat capability of fighters with the guided munitions capability of bombers. The J-16's survivability and long range means it can match and even outnumber enemy fighters before going on to bomb their airfields, command centers and ships. And on the defensive, the J-16 can switch to a full air to air missile load to defend Chinese airspace against enemy aircraft.
Beast in arena
Could be time & money saver device paf needs so long ?

But i don't think J-16 can be exported due to its similarity of airframe with Su-27 series (even though it may have Chinese sub systems internally) but it export by China will still be objectionable by Russia.

 

[Signalian]

Include SU-34 Fullback in the list also

 

[MastanKhan]

Include SU-34 Fullback in the list also

Hi,

The issue is that the russian aircraft are not be available---. If they are then SU34 makes an excellent choice.

 

[batmannow]

But i don't think J-16 can be exported due to its similarity of airframe with Su-27 series (even though it may have Chinese sub systems internally) but it export by China will still be objectionable by Russia.

It was the case or confusion with J11b or d but not with , J-16A cause has built like SU-27 s frames but on it ?

 

[Genghis khan1]

Pakistan needs to join Turkey's TFX program asap. Any purchase of twin-engine jet in limited quantity is comparatively expensive and a temporary fix. China support Pakistan as long as it in their own interest. Just like US, Chinese don't want Pakistan to have serious offensive capabilities which can jeopardize their multi-billion trade and investments the region and beyond (Since historically, PAF loves to do Preemptive air-raids to gain superiority) in other words to start a full scale war. Proof of this is the wiretapped call of Musharraf in China during Kargil conflict that they possible gave it to US to start mediation process. We all know that wiretapped ended-up in Indian hands and they took credit for tapping it. If China is not willing to give Pakistan their best tech, then it time for Pakistan to do some soul searching and get serious about their objective in the region. Instead of Turning PAF into Black and Yellow Taxi stand, with Chinese and Russian junk, PAF need to learn and further integrate it's fleet based on western technology, i.e TFX project. Not only it will be a stepping stone for PAF into it's future but also a learning experience that what can't be procured can be to produced.

 

[batmannow]

Pakistan needs to join Turkey's TFX program asap. Any purchase of twin-engine jet in limited quantity is comparatively expensive and a temporary fix. China support Pakistan as long as it in their own interest. Just like US, Chinese don't want Pakistan to have serious offensive capabilities which can jeopardize their multi-billion trade and investments the region and beyond (Since historically, PAF loves to do Preemptive air-raids to gain superiority) in other words to start a full scale war. Proof of this is the wiretapped call of Musharraf in China during Kargil conflict that they possible gave it to US to start mediation process. We all know that wiretapped ended-up in Indian hands and they took credit for tapping it. If China is not willing to give Pakistan their best tech, then it time for Pakistan to do some soul searching and get serious about their objective in the region. Instead of Turning PAF into Black and Yellow Taxi stand, with Chinese and Russian junk, PAF need to learn and further integrate it's fleet based on western technology, i.e TFX project. Not only it will be a stepping stone for PAF into it's future but also a learning experience that what can't be procured can be to produced.

you have a very wrong understanding about Chinese friendship with pakistan , & it's should be wiped out ASAP cause , from helping us getting our nuclear mission till JF-THUNDER in the skies it all says that , china is the only nation on earth which really supports pakistan with out any doubts ?
what ever you have said about musharf prove it with credible links .
J-31 is what we are heading till now , & TFX still is on the computer screens with , all of its main accessories coming from West which is always against any high end gadgets into pakistanS defence inventory ?

Hi,

The issue is that the russian aircraft are not be available---. If they are then SU34 makes an excellent choice.

they are available but issue is the mind set of our military & civil political berucracy going against their personal interstS ?

 

[Defender@@]

they are available but issue is the mind set of our military & civil political berucracy going against their personal interstS ?

This is not about interest and availability,, this is about careful planning,,, Pakistan is already inducting JF17 which is new platform requires alot of hard work and planning for drafting strategies, training, battle plan scenario development, setting-up logistic,,, so as of now we cannot afford inducting a new platform thats why we are trying to induct more advance F16,,, The plan is to maintain a minimum deterrent for now with F16 and JF17 and then move to fifth generation platform that is most likely J31 or could also be F35 ....

 

[Genghis khan1]

you have a very wrong understanding about Chinese friendship with pakistan , & it's should be wiped out ASAP cause , from helping us getting our nuclear mission till JF-THUNDER in the skies it all says that , china is the only nation on earth which really supports pakistan with out any doubts ?
what ever you have said about musharf prove it with credible links .
J-31 is what we are heading till now , & TFX still is on the computer screens with , all of its main accessories coming from West which is always against any high end gadgets into pakistanS defence inventory ?

?

Here is an old thread on it, but obviously, Indian weren't advance enough to wiretapped Musharraf from China.
https://defence.pk/threads/conversa...ahraff-intercepted-by-raw-in-99.177390/page-3
So according to Hamid Mir in his Geo program, Musharraf was being wiretapped by Chinese and with understanding with US, it was decided to put pressure on Pakistan to back down.

I am realistic, there is no jiggeri and yari in international politics specially when money is involved. Even Musharraf said Chinese have their own interest in the region for helping us. It true Chinese did helped us, but their help stop before Pakistan reaches any serious offensive capability. How do you explain their ban on the export of their top of the line fighters to Pakistan. Why do we settle for J-31 instead of J-20, or J-10 instead of J-11Ds.

If small like project like JF-17 started during sanctions with limited budget progress so well for Pakistan, imagine what project like TFX will yield for Pakistan.

 

[Defender@@]

I am realistic, there is no jiggeri and yari in international politics specially when money is involved. Even Musharraf said Chinese have their own interest in the region for helping us. It true Chinese did helped us, but their help stop before Pakistan reaches any serious offensive capability. How do you explain their ban on the export of their top of the line fighters to Pakistan. Why do we settle for J-31 instead of J-20, or J-10 instead of J-11Ds.

Ban is not from China, but from Russia as they ban export of AL31 engine to avoid competition between russia and china thats the core reason that j31 will b e powere by either rd93 or with chinese made engines ...

I agree China his own interest to support Pak but so is the case with every other nation,,, nobody support other without any personal benefit,,, even saudia and UAE support us for its own benefit,,, even turkey do the same,,, Please tell me is Turkey capable enough to manufacture a sanction free 5th generation aircraft ? it is not,,, engines will be western,, avoinics will be western ,,, so west will imposed sanctions whenever they want,,,

 

[Genghis khan1]

Ban is not from China, but from Russia as they ban export of AL31 engine to avoid competition between russia and china thats the core reason that j31 will b e powere by either rd93 or with chinese made engines ...

I agree China his own interest to support Pak but so is the case with every other nation,,, nobody support other without any personal benefit,,, even saudia and UAE support us for its own benefit,,, even turkey do the same,,, Please tell me is Turkey capable enough to manufacture a sanction free 5th generation aircraft ? it is not,,, engines will be western,, avoinics will be western ,,, so west will imposed sanctions whenever they want,,,

Actually, Turkey do have access to lot of western technology and they have progressed quite well in last two decade. They are producing everything under TOT from western countries nowadays. That's what Pakistan needs, western technology and our own brain to produce our own jet. Not spoon fed made China stuff. Truth to be told JF-17 is custom made Chinese jet for Pakistan. Turkey and Pakistan can do it. We got the brain, it all about the will to spend money on TOT and our own research. Pakistan is not in war, there is not rush to pump out jets, with proper R&D, what cannot be procured can be produced.

 

[帅的一匹]

@Irfan Baloch ,you realy dont have much of a choice,either Chinese or Chinese.
When do you want or need this fighter jet?
Can you wait another 15 years,your options might increase?

Chinese ones are the best choice, be it J11d or J16. If PAF can have 4 squadrons of J16, India will have pain in their balls.

How JH7 B is the winner ?

J16 is much better than JH7b, be it avionics weapon suit , fuselage, EI pod. Now J11D/J16 all adapts to WS10b engine with Max wet 14 tons thrust, export is no problem at all. If we'd like to sell to Pakistan no one could stop us. I never give a Russian a shyt

Chinese only believe in Pakistanis, only!

Actually, Turkey do have access to lot of western technology and they have progressed quite well in last two decade. They are producing everything under TOT from western countries nowadays. That's what Pakistan needs, western technology and our own brain to produce our own jet. Not spoon fed made China stuff. Truth to be told JF-17 is custom made Chinese jet for Pakistan. Turkey and Pakistan can do it. We got the brain, it all about the will to spend money on TOT and our own research. Pakistan is not in war, there is not rush to pump out jets, with proper R&D, what cannot be procured can be produced.

JF17 project will show Pakistan a clear picture of how to produce a modern aircraft by yourself. From start to the end, is till think that Pakistan shall introduce J10b from China and try to learn how to build 4.5 gem fighter at first. As a small sized fighter, JF17 as a platform by itself has not that much potential. In consideration of the economy condition of Pakistan, you have to push forward step by step steadily.

PAF pilots can't fly J10 b, it's a regret for me as always.

J-11d s & JH 7s are not better then SU-30s & rafeels in IAF inventory , the best bet can be SU-35 or J-16s .

If Russia sell SU35 to PAF, guess what? Russia will lost all its military business with India.

 

[Akasa]

J-11d s & JH 7s are not better then SU-30s & rafeels in IAF inventory , the best bet can be SU-35 or J-16s .

The J-11Ds operate relatively the same subsystems found on the J-16. I'm not sure as how you've arrived at the notion that J-11Ds are somehow "inferior" to the J-16.

J-16

General characteristics

• Crew: 2
• Length: 21.9 m (72 ft)
• Wingspan: 14.7 m (48.25 ft)
• Height: 6.36 m (20.85 ft)
• Wing area: 62.04 m2 (667.80 ft2)
• Empty weight: 17,700 kg (38,600 lb)
• Loaded weight: 26,000 kg (58,000 lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 35,000 kg (77,000 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × WS-10A afterburning turbofans
  • Dry thrust: 89.17 kN (20,050 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 135 kN (33,000 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 2.0
• Range: 3,900 km (2,400 mi)
• Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
• Rate of climb: 305 m/s ()

Armament

• 1 × 30 mm GSh-30-1 cannon with 150 rounds
• Munitions on twelve external hardpoints, including:

• 8 × PL-12, and 4 × PL-9 air-to-air missiles
• Various bombs and rockets includingBeiDou satellite-guided bombs and laser-guided bombs
• Anti-ship and anti-radiation missiles
• Electronic countermeasure (ECM) pods

JH7-A

General characteristics

• Crew: 2: pilot, weapons operator
• Payload: 9,000 kg[7][8] (19,842 lb) of weapons
• Length: 22.32 m (73 ft 2 in)
• Wingspan: 12.8 m (41 ft 7 in)
• Height: 6.22 m (20 ft 4 in)
• Wing area: m² (ft²)
• Empty weight: 14,500 kg[21] (31,900 lb)
• Loaded weight: kg (lb)
• Max. takeoff weight: 28,475 kg[22] (62,720 lb)
• Powerplant: 2 × Xian WS-9 afterburningturbofans
  • Dry thrust: 54.29 kN (12,250 lbf) each
  • Thrust with afterburner: 91.26 kN (20,515 lbf) each

Performance

• Maximum speed: Mach 1.75 (1,808 km/h, 1,122 mph)
• Combat radius: 1,759 km (890 nm, 1,093 mi)
• Ferry range: 3,700 km (1,970 nm, 2,299 mi)
• Service ceiling: 16,000 m (51,180 ft)
• Wing loading: kg/m² (lb/ft²)

Armament

• Guns: 1× 23mm twin-barrel GSh-23Lautocannon, 300 rounds
• Hardpoints: 9 in total (6× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 9,000 kg (20,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance
• Rockets: 57mm/90mm unguided rocket pods
• Missiles:
  • Air-to-air missiles:
    • PL-5[23]
    • PL-8
    • PL-9
  • Anti-ship missiles:
    • Yingji-8K[24]
    • Yingji-82K[25]
  • Air-to-surface missiles:
    • CM-802A
    • Kongdi-88[26]
    • C-705
    • C-704
  • Anti-radiation missiles:
    • Yingji-91[27]
    • LD-10
    • CM-102
• Bombs:
  • Unguided bombs
  • Laser-guided bombs
    • GB1
    • GB5
  • Satellite-guided bombs
    • LS-6
    • FT-12
    • GB6
    • FT-2
    • FT-3
    • FT-6

Avionics
JL-10A radar
All these armaments can be adjusted on J-16 S ?
J-16s has better engine , faster speed then JH-7s ?

The J-16 features a much more powerful radar (1760-channel AESA), airframe enhancements with RAM and carbon-fiber composites, significant ECM/EW suite upgrades, possibly a new cockpit, more powerful 140 kN engines, as well as a significantly higher payload and speed.

In a nutshell, the J-16 has superseded the JH-7/A/B in terms of both capability and practicality. This is likely the primary reason why the JH-7B has yet to enter production.

 

[Defender@@]

Actually, Turkey do have access to lot of western technology and they have progressed quite well in last two decade. They are producing everything under TOT from western countries nowadays. That's what Pakistan needs, western technology and our own brain to produce our own jet. Not spoon fed made China stuff. Truth to be told JF-17 is custom made Chinese jet for Pakistan. Turkey and Pakistan can do it. We got the brain, it all about the will to spend money on TOT and our own research. Pakistan is not in war, there is not rush to pump out jets, with proper R&D, what cannot be procured can be produced.

Turkey is NATO member, we are not,,, Which gaming changing aggressive high tech weapon turkey is preparing under TOT?? is it AirCraft, Missiles, Nukes, A/C Carriers, ? Nothing of a game changing equipment,,, other equipments like tanks, submarrines, ships,,, we also did that,,, its the money constraint not the brain resource ...

West will never allow such a tech which will make us self sufficient,, on the contrary China did provide us such a technology in the form of JF17,,, again S-20 will be built in Pak with ToT,, F-22 ToT,,, so what else do you we want,,, instead of trying hotch potch,, have a focused approach,,, We have to focus more on manufacturing of JF17,,, next step should be on ToT of engines,,, overhaul facility of RD93,, manufacturing facility of AESA radars,,, manufacturing capability of RD93,,, software and EW suite upgradation of JF17 by local resources,,, once we get master on fourth generation air craft then we can think about manufacturing fifth generation,,, you have to move step by step,,, all critical development of jf17 is being done in China,,, we have to make our defense manufacturing story more modern,,, that cannot be done by jumping in partnership with Turkey which is almost at similar level,,, however, jf17 is the ideal opportunity... we should invest in infrastructure to increase the share of manufacturing of jf17 ... if we succeed to manufacture 90% of components in Pak then we should move for home manufacturing of fifth generation meanwhile we have to purchase off the shelf ...

 

[Genghis khan1]

Chinese ones are the best choice, be it J11d or J16. If PAF can have 4 squadrons of J16, India will have pain in their balls.


J16 is much better than JH7b, be it avionics weapon suit , fuselage, EI pod. Now J11D/J16 all adapts to WS10b engine with Max wet 14 tons thrust, export is no problem at all. If we'd like to sell to Pakistan no one could stop us. I never give a Russian a shyt

Chinese only believe in Pakistanis, only!


JF17 project will show Pakistan a clear picture of how to produce a modern aircraft by yourself. From start to the end, is till think that Pakistan shall introduce J10b from China and try to learn how to build 4.5 gem fighter at first. As a small sized fighter, JF17 as a platform by itself has not that much potential. In consideration of the economy condition of Pakistan, you have to push forward step by step steadily.

PAF pilots can't fly J10 b, it's a regret for me as always.

Unfortunately, Pakistan engineers don't learn from China. They just learn to copy/paste and assemble what they been taught in China. Just like Chinese, Pakistan need to do R&D on their own. It's a painstaking work but in the right direction. Pakistan needs a western standard military technology to counter ever modernizing Indian military. Pakistan can never have a military technology better than that of China if it's only relying on China to improve itself.

Turkey is NATO member, we are not,,, Which gaming changing aggressive high tech weapon turkey is preparing under TOT?? is it AirCraft, Missiles, Nukes, A/C Carriers, ? Nothing of a game changing equipment,,, other equipments like tanks, submarrines, ships,,, we also did that,,, its the money constraint not the brain resource ...

West will never allow such a tech which will make us self sufficient,, on the contrary China did provide us such a technology in the form of JF17,,, again S-20 will be built in Pak with ToT,, F-22 ToT,,, so what else do you we want,,, instead of trying hotch potch,, have a focused approach,,, We have to focus more on manufacturing of JF17,,, next step should be on ToT of engines,,, overhaul facility of RD93,, manufacturing facility of AESA radars,,, manufacturing capability of RD93,,, software and EW suite upgradation of JF17 by local resources,,, once we get master on fourth generation air craft then we can think about manufacturing fifth generation,,, you have to move step by step,,, all critical development of jf17 is being done in China,,, we have to make our defense manufacturing story more modern,,, that cannot be done by jumping in partnership with Turkey which is almost at similar level,,, however, jf17 is the ideal opportunity... we should invest in infrastructure to increase the share of manufacturing of jf17 ... if we succeed to manufacture 90% of components in Pak then we should move for home manufacturing of fifth generation meanwhile we have to purchase off the shelf ...

It's not jumping partner, it's about pursing concurrent project with different partners. Turkey is moving towards total self reliance. It's not good to put all your eggs in one basket. Chinese are having trouble producing engine, while Eurojet, the manufacturer of the EJ200 engine will help Turkey to build it TFX engine. It will help build which mean engine will be fully Turkish. The two companies will additionally collaborate and co-develop engine control software systems and engine maintenance monitoring systems. French and Germans, all were willing to sell Pakistan, their advance subs, given the right price. By the time Pakistan will finish upgrading JF-17, learning AESA and all other stuff, rest of the world would be producing next generation of technology, and now Pakistan will be waiting for China to master new technology first and than sell them and teach them to use new generation hardware.