What led to the failure of project Azm?

[Sliver]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

I saw people mocking other countries for taking so long to develop an aircraft. But they don't realize that's the effort needed to get some home grown capability.

It's up to Pakistan to start and keep going at some point. The will should be there.

 

[TheSolution]

Pakistan will need about 20 years from concept design to first low rate production aircraft, if Pakistan do it alone. This is actually a normal timeline for many fighter jets in the past. Meaning the first production aircraft would be rolling out around 2041 or later.

Development for South Korea's KF-21 concept was first announced in 2001, 22 years ago, and the maiden flight took placed in July 2022, and they have helps from US and Europeans.

The mass production of KF-21 is expected to start in 2026, 25 years after the project concept was first announced.

Bear in mind that South Korea has far better industrial infrastructure, a large pool of experienced engineering work force and better aircraft building experience than Pakistan.

Pakistan will take far longer than other countries to produce a physical prototype.

Given its economy size and institutional failure working at a much lower level of productivity

 

[Sliver]

Pakistan will take far longer than other countries to produce a physical prototype.

Given its economy size and institutional failure working at a much lower level of productivity

doesnt matter if these things are in place:
1) we start now
2) we learn the process hurdles that are preventing us from going quickly (India's procurement process is notorious for long delays for example)
3) we improve that and keep on improving that even if its incremental (dont need to be perfect on day 1)

just those 3 will take you through a painful but required path to build something on your own.
many times the temptation was there to "match the capabilities of the adversary" by hook or by crook

with the nuclear umbrella, the nation should be more relaxed - no enemy can cross the redlines
use that time to build capabilities.

 

[waz]

Corruption = No money
No money = no project.

It's about expertise, think about how much much capital machinery does Pakistan make? Little if any.

 

[TheSolution]

Corruption = No money
No money = no project.

It's about expertise, think about how much much capital machinery does Pakistan make? Little if any.

It's not just corruption, it's also incompetency carelessness and nepotism. Even the money which is spent or the work which is done, is very hollow or poorly thought through. Without much effort, quality or proper planning.

Even in other areas they are messing things up which can't be reversed due to incompetency and carelessness.

How long can the country take until it's at a point of no return from the destruction they are causing?

Housing societies destroying nature and the natural environment, agricultural land - creating concrete jungles. Not developed in a sustainable manner that preserves some of the greenery.

Architectural and historical monuments not being preserved or maintained properly and being destroyed. Which destroys the nation's cultural heritage.

National institutions rampant on nepotism leading to tea and buscuit unproductivity culture with unskilled/unqualified workers - essentially become ineffective and useless.

Cities, like Karachi/Islamabad, not being maintained or developed in a sustainable manner or for business activity.

Too many areas where everything is being ignored and is a complete shit show

 

[Sliver]

It's not just corruption, it's also incompetency carelessness and nepotism. Even the money which is spent or the work which is done, is very hollow or poorly thought through. Without much effort, quality or proper planning.

Even in other areas they are messing things up which can't be reversed due to incompetency and carelessness.

How long can the country take until it's at a point of no return from the destruction they are causing?

Housing societies destroying nature and the natural environment, agricultural land - creating concrete jungles. Not developed in a sustainable manner that preserves some of the greenery.

Architectural and historical monuments not being preserved or maintained properly and being destroyed. Which destroys the nation's cultural heritage.

National institutions rampant on nepotism leading to tea and buscuit unproductivity culture with unskilled/unqualified workers - essentially become ineffective and useless.

Cities, like Karachi/Islamabad, not being maintained or developed in a sustainable manner or for business activity.

Too many areas where everything is being ignored and is a complete shit show

you cant solve everything, but leaving it as is - will not help solving anything
you pick one area and start working there.. lets say the aerodynamics or building an airframe.
dont have a windtunnel? buy one
get people to rebuild existing airframes.
then tweak them and get a desired outcome.
repeat - and this time, try to build the wind tunnel too


so you can have one are (after 5-10 years) which is solely yours.

 

[TheSolution]

you cant solve everything, but leaving it as is - will not help solving anything
you pick one area and start working there.. lets say the aerodynamics or building an airframe.
dont have a windtunnel? buy one
get people to rebuild existing airframes.
then tweak them and get a desired outcome.
repeat - and this time, try to build the wind tunnel too


so you can have one are (after 5-10 years) which is solely yours.

That was a vague post talking in general of the incompetency or carelessness that exists in Pakistan, not Azm alone.

But yeah I agree, we should continue to try and build an ecosystem for R&D in Pakistan. Have to start somewhere and eventually they'll encounter problems or progress will slow down and they'll have to find solutions, seek help, increase quality of human resource and eventually they'll start to improve their standard.

But this also relies on how much sustained funding they can receive, and our economy is not looking too promising right now.

 

[Reichmarshal]

Priorities.....Mr sidhu is more interested in Maybach's, polo n mirages

 

[GriffinsRule]

Priorities.....Mr sidhu is more interested in Maybach's, polo n mirages

He has certainly underdelivered and has been un-inspirational so far. Hopes were high that being from the engineering wing, he would actually be doing a greater push towards AZM related programs and its been the exact opposite.

 

[Reichmarshal]

He is bajwa 2.0...don't expect much from him....infact would be happy for things to remain the same level....instead of things regressing with his antics

 

[AeroEngineer]

He has certainly underdelivered and has been un-inspirational so far. Hopes were high that being from the engineering wing, he would actually be doing a greater push towards AZM related programs and its been the exact opposite.

Engineering Wing?

 

[Genghis khan1]

Govt is also rolling up SPARCO. Shutting down some production facilities. No money for engineers.

 

[salarsikander]

Because the kAhkis have this pig mentality to just Develop Shadi halls and malls in their Cants area and bases and earn rent from them so they can run their household expenses like some kings, ofc the income earned rom rent is also distributed among junior ranks but the share is low according to their ranks, typical desi ghaleez mentality that will never grow, instead of actually developing something they just want to sit back and relax and smoke cigar while watching their bank accounts grow enormously.

 

[FuturePAF]

Maybe. But the locally produced J-10s are going to be expensive and extremely delayed compared to the J-10s that we can buy from China. We could manufacture J-10s for China but I doubt they have a need that Pakistan can fulfill.

Also, China is increasingly operating like the established weapons manufacturer that it has become - less willing to build your capacity and more willing to sell. This is the reason for the recent PAF obsession of everything Turkish. The Turks are much more willing for a partner than the Chinese today. Once they become established (they are very close), Pakistan would have missed that train as well.

If the Turks end up buying the J-10, the PAF should considering building J-10s in Pakistan; even if they take a little longer and are a little more expensive to make.

As you said, the Turkish defense industry is becoming quite advanced (experience building the F-16s locally and parts for the F-35 as well as work on the T-FX), so it would be reasonable to assume the Turks would probably want to customize the J-10 for their needs. some modifications to the design could lower the RCS and bring the avionics in line with systems being developed for the T-FX.

For the Turks, buying the J-10 would also open up the possibility of them having access to another engine to study as they build their own engine for the T-FX.

Should a customized Turkish J-10 prove fruitful, it maybe worth it for the PAF to domestically produce that variant in Pakistan, in collaboration with China and Turkey. This could allow the PAF to transition to building the T-FX when it is a mature design and the production costs have come down.

 

[JamD]

If the Turks end up buying the J-10, the PAF should considering building J-10s in Pakistan; even if they take a little longer and are a little more expensive to make.

As you said, the Turkish defense industry is becoming quite advanced (experience building the F-16s locally and parts for the F-35 as well as work on the T-FX), so it would be reasonable to assume the Turks would probably want to customize the J-10 for their needs. some modifications to the design could lower the RCS and bring the avionics in line with systems being developed for the T-FX.

For the Turks, buying the J-10 would also open up the possibility of them having access to another engine to study as they build their own engine for the T-FX.

Should a customized Turkish J-10 prove fruitful, it maybe worth it for the PAF to domestically produce that variant in Pakistan, in collaboration with China and Turkey. This could allow the PAF to transition to building the T-FX when it is a mature design and the production costs have come down.

It makes no sense for them to buy J10s. They are willing to re-engine their TFX for Pakistan with Russian or Chinese option.