What is common between 1971, 9/11, and 11/26?

[INDIC]

You mentioned the term, and I asked you to explain the meaning.

Why so antsy pantsy?

For Hyderabad please open a new thread and I'd love to discuss it.

Thank you.

Please open a new thread on Hyderabad. It deserves its own thread. Don't you think so?

I can only explain what they did, I don't know the meaning. You know Urdu, so you must be knowing the meaning.

 

[my2cents]

you know what Razakar means?

Right?

If you are not aware Nizam raised voluntary army of 200,000 called Razakars to resist joining with Indian union and were used to quell local rebellion against his rule.

 

[bronxbull]

You mentioned the term, and I asked you to explain the meaning.

Why so antsy pantsy?

For Hyderabad please open a new thread and I'd love to discuss it.


Thank you.




Please open a new thread on Hyderabad. It deserves its own thread. Don't you think so?

Next thread ll happen when we Slit Owaisi throats and do our kali pooja in Hyderabad.

 

[OrionHunter]

Indian push of 60,000 insurgents followed by an attack on E. Pakistan back in 1971 was no better than

bunch of hijackers destroying Twin Towers
or
Beardo Mullahs attack on civilians in Mumbai.

Indira made a HUGE blunder back then and so many Indian posters and analysts fail to understand the implications and continue repeating foolish victory, just like Talibarbarians dance after mumbai, or Palestinian extremists dance after 9/11.

If Indian posters want respect for Indian borders,

then learn to respect other country's borders too.

Thank you.

I can't believe you wrote this piece of crap.

Fauji bhai I expected better from you!

 

[toxic_pus]

My question is very specific sirjee. Agartala conspiracy case might have initiated the process of an Armed/forcible solution to create independent Bangladesh.

No it didn't.

Pak army's butchery of Awami Leaguers and then minorities did.

But when did the Niyomito bahini/Regular forces (the military branch of MB) started receiving direct support from the Indian Army? 1967-68? I guess,no. It was only after April'1971 Army took over the job from the hand of BSF. I am still searching for documents to support your claim,not mine. If you help me with some links,that will be much appreciated.

After March 26, 1971.

And BSF was involved throughout.

And Mukti Bahini was officially formed on April 17, 1971 with the formation of Bangladesh Govt. in exile.

Secondly, yes.There is no specific estimation of actual influx on migrants during the first half of '71.

During the initial period of this insanity, India maintained a register. As on May 12, 1971, the total number of refugees were 2,328,507. The figure of 10,000,000 is an approximate figure for the whole period from March 26 till early December.

 

[my2cents]

No it didn't.

Pak army's butchery of Awami Leaguers and then minorities did.


After March 26, 1971.

And BSF was involved throughout.

And Mukti Bahini was officially formed on April 17, 1971 with the formation of Bangladesh Govt. in exile.


During the initial period of this insanity, India maintained a register. As on May 12, 1971, the total number of refugees were 2,328,507. The figure of 10,000,000 is an approximate figure for the whole period from March 26 till early December.

Where did the figures from?? Any links. I am asking you because most people on PDF try to underestimate the number of refugees that took shelter in our country.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Manekshaw did call them cowards.

"Every time I sent them in, every time they saw a burly Punjabi or Pathan, they ran, leaving their weapons behind"

Manekshaw retreads thin red line between field marshal, dismissal

@toxic_pus:
Regardless of whatever Maneckshaw called them; these very "cowards(sic)" harried their opposition. These "cowards" had (in most cases) never held a gun before in their lives and were fighting a professionally trained Army in a rural terrain that was strewn with mines; most of which were the Claymore Mines. Remember the density of mines laid in rural E.Bengal was one of the greatest ever laid in modern conflicts. Since the PA was reluctant in most cases to venture forth out of cities, towns and other built-up areas which were turned into citadels; into the surrounding hinterland. These "cowards" frequently fell like rag-dolls to these mines; "presumably when they were running away on seeing a burly Punjabi or Pathan", in Sam's words. If they were such "cowards", it stands to reason that they would never even have ventured into the mined areas.

But Remember; that these very same "cowards" ensured that the PA did not venture out when the IA drove in and bypassed all the citadels. These very same "cowards" worked very effectively as frogmen and sabotaged river boats carrying supplies in the country-side criss-crossed with rivers; where rivers were far more numerous than even rudimentary roads. Some of these "coward" frogmen relied on river-reeds turned into 'aqualungs' to make their attacks, since they had little else by way of eqpt. This has been very well documented by V/Adm. Mihir K.Roy in his book "War in the Indian Ocean". This Naval Offr. was the then DNI at NHQ with an active knowledge of the war on the ground and intimate knowledge of the proceedings. Surprisingly (sic), Mihir Roy speaks praisingly about these very same "cowards" !! Adm.Roy is no more, but Capt. M.N.Samant MVC, NM. IN (retd) is still around; to set the record straight.

But for these "cowards" and their "cowardice"; the IA columns could well have been bogged down in the rush in to East Bengal, more so towards Dhaka. History could have then taken a different turn.

Then all stories about pushing or sending them is simply poppy-cock; those "cowards" were already in. They never came out. They joined up in straggling groups or in droves (depending on their location and the ferocity of any recent pogrom conducted by the PA and their cohorts) to the nearest center of resistance, Some of these were so far that any effort to even reach the Indian border, was fraught with the risk of getting killed on the way. Funnily enough, a good bit of the Mukti Joddhas laid eyes on India only after the war; when they were evacuated to the ALC as Paraplegics and Quadriplegics to be be fitted with prostheses. And where I encountered them.

Remember also; that the Mukti Bahini formed out of these "cowards" was hardly an unitary monolithic body with any real heirarchy. All that happened later, on a very ad-hoc basis. Not all of them even held allegiance to the 'Mujib Bahini' which later morphed into the Mukti Bahini under the command of Col.M.A.G.Osmany.
Even the number of 60,000 is just off the cuff. Nobody can say how many were there, but estimates can peg the figure at nearly twice as many.

Most of all remember; that Sam was always the master of "the dramatic flourish"!

I just asked a simple question specific to Gen. Mankeshaw's interview.

That's all.

Either you can say you do not know or tell me the term.

It is that simple.

Just as you need to bring some FACTS to the table.
Its as simple as that..............Fauji.

 

[toxic_pus]

@toxic_pus:
Regardless of whatever Maneckshaw called them; these very "cowards(sic)" harried their opposition. These "cowards" had (in most cases) never held a gun before in their lives and were fighting a professionally trained Army in a rural terrain that was strewn with mines; most of which were the Claymore Mines. Remember the density of mines laid in rural E.Bengal was one of the greatest ever laid in modern conflicts. Since the PA was reluctant in most cases to venture forth out of cities, towns and other built-up areas which were turned into citadels; into the surrounding hinterland. These "cowards" frequently fell like rag-dolls to these mines; "presumably when they were running away on seeing a burly Punjabi or Pathan", in Sam's words. If they were such "cowards", it stands to reason that they would never even have ventured into the mined areas.

But Remember; that these very same "cowards" ensured that the PA did not venture out when the IA drove in and bypassed all the citadels. These very same "cowards" worked very effectively as frogmen and sabotaged river boats carrying supplies in the country-side criss-crossed with rivers; where rivers were far more numerous than even rudimentary roads. Some of these "coward" frogmen relied on river-reeds turned into 'aqualungs' to make their attacks, since they had little else by way of eqpt. This has been very well documented by V/Adm. Mihir K.Roy in his book "War in the Indian Ocean". This Naval Offr. was the then DNI at NHQ with an active knowledge of the war on the ground and intimate knowledge of the proceedings. Surprisingly (sic), Mihir Roy speaks praisingly about these very same "cowards" !! Adm.Roy is no more, but Capt. M.N.Samant MVC, NM. IN (retd) is still around; to set the record straight.

But for these "cowards" and their "cowardice"; the IA columns could well have been bogged down in the rush in to East Bengal, more so towards Dhaka. History could have then taken a different turn.

Then all stories about pushing or sending them is simply poppy-cock; those "cowards" were already in. They never came out. They joined up in straggling groups or in droves (depending on their location and the ferocity of any recent pogrom conducted by the PA and their cohorts) to the nearest center of resistance, Some of these were so far that any effort to even reach the Indian border, was fraught with the risk of getting killed on the way. Funnily enough, a good bit of the Mukti Joddhas laid eyes on India only after the war; when they were evacuated to the ALC as Paraplegics and Quadriplegics to be be fitted with prostheses. And where I encountered them.

Remember also; that the Mukti Bahini formed out of these "cowards" was hardly an unitary monolithic body with any real heirarchy. All that happened later, on a very ad-hoc basis. Not all of them even held allegiance to the 'Mujib Bahini' which later morphed into the Mukti Bahini under the command of Col.M.A.G.Osmany.
Even the number of 60,000 is just off the cuff. Nobody can say how many were there, but estimates can peg the figure at nearly twice as many.

Most of all remember; that Sam was always the master of "the dramatic flourish"!

Couldn't agree more.

I was merely corroborating the fact that Manekshaw did in fact say something like that.

Quite some time ago, I had clarified it to a Bangladeshi, who got confused by this very quote . Below is the post:

Although Manekshaw was a bit flamboyant, perhaps more than his position would warrant, his comments, although a bit uncharitable wasn't entirely false. He was talking of the ordinary citizens of BD who were trained in BSF camps.

Roughly about 15,000 EPR members, the entire Bengali contingent, had defected. About 3,000 of them could be disarmed, while the remaining defected with their arms. The Bengalis in the police force had also defected. They formed the core of Mukti Bahini, and the initial batches of trainees. Later on, they in turn, became the trainers. But they didn't make the entire contingent of Mukti Bahinis. From May onwards ordinary youths far exceeded the defected ones.

The training commenced according to the educational qualifications. The graduates, were given specialised training in sabotage and guerrilla tactics, and some of them were even taken to IMF to be trained as officers. People with science backgrounds were trained in electronics, radar/radio operations, explosives etc. Some were even taken to Cochin and Veranasi to be trained as frogmen. They later played valuable role in sabotaging the Pak ships and blowing up key bridges. The under grads or even those without much education were given the usual non-specialised training.

An image of such ragtag team was published in Life (10.12.71),

From June onwards, these people would be pushed into East Pakistan to undertake guerilla type attacks, under the cover of heavy artillery fire. Most of the time they would fail to hold their positions and almost always PA would regain their position. It was in this context that Manekshaw made these comments.

There is no need to be confused.

Notice also, that Manekshaw never said '60,000'.

Shh...don't tell that to Fauj.

Where did the figures from?? Any links. I am asking you because most people on PDF try to underestimate the number of refugees that took shelter in our country.

I apologise for not quoting the source.

That figure comes from Ms Gandhi's letter to Richard Nixon. The letter was dated May 13, 1971 and can be accessed at US Congress archive.

If you can't find it, let me know.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Regardless of whatever Maneckshaw called them; these very "cowards(sic)" harried their opposition.

So this is how it goes. huh?

if the reality doesn't fit one's made up world,

then a decorated and honest General be damned.

His statements be damned

and dump the SOB, $hit on him just because he told the truth.

This is called prejudice of nth degree

Not too different from the blind and deaf Islamsts from our side of the border.

What a sad state of affairs we have.

What a sad state of affairs.

 

[FaujHistorian]

--- Pak army's butchery of Awami Leaguers and then minorities did.

.

Why my dear are you so prejudiced so full of $hit that you are ignoring a simple fact over and over and over


If Pak army was involved in any butchery,

and there was sufficient evidence to support your accusation

then

I tell you

-- Indira Gandhi would have done the trials a la nurumbarg style in no time.


Do not ever forget that all our POW all of our 50,000+ troops including TOP general(s) down to the sipahi aka foot soldier were in Indian prisons for months and months and years on end.


But there was not a single charge ever filed.


So either mourn the incompetency nay callousness of Indian leadership, judges (known among the best in the region), and the entire Indian nation including your own dad and grandpa.

Either mourn

or stop hurling childish accusations.


Thank you

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Why my dear are you so prejudiced so full of $hit that you are ignoring a simple fact over and over and over


If Pak army was involved in any butchery,

and there was sufficient evidence to support your accusation

then

I tell you

-- Indira Gandhi would have done the trials a la nurumbarg style in no time.


Do not ever forget that all our POW all of our 50,000+ troops including TOP general(s) down to the sipahi aka foot soldier were in Indian prisons for months and months and years on end.


But there was not a single charge ever filed.


So either mourn the incompetency nay callousness of Indian leadership, judeges (known among the best in the region), and the entire Indian nation including your own dad and grandpa.

Either mourn

or stop hurling childish accusations.


Thank you

No, actually a War Crimes Tribunal right then would have been the best. But Mujib was still in prison in the West...so an hanging the criminals was out of the question. Besides 'Victor's Justice' was a monopoly of the Super powers in the Cold War era. West Pakistani establishment(what was left of it) declared amnesty for arrested Awami League leaders. In such a situation, India had to reciprocate. This was especially important because the recognition of Bangladesh as a sovereign state was at stake.

 

[FaujHistorian]

No, actually a War Crimes Tribunal right then would have been the best. But Mujib was still in prison in the West...so an hanging the criminals was out of the question. Besides 'Victor's Justice' was a monopoly of the Super powers in the Cold War era. West Pakistani establishment(what was left of it) declared amnesty for arrested Awami League leaders. In such a situation, India had to reciprocate. This was especially important because the recognition of Bangladesh as a sovereign state was at stake.

Please no petty excuses.

Mujib was released long before Pakistani POW's came home.

So I urge you not to suicide bomb history in order to support any lack of tribunals or even documentation to be presented to Pakistani government.


it is like a guy was in jail as POW for 3 years.

Then he is released

then 40 odd years go by

He is dead and the jailer is dead

Then you come along and start drumming charges against the dead guy.

In the West if you do some cr@p like this, family of dead guy can bring civil suit for defamation.

But in Desi countries

sub chalta hai

And people keep on rpeating half lies, full $hit over and over in the hopes that lie repeated often can be considered a truth.

This is pathetic and no self-respecting man would ever commit baseless and false unproven accusations 40-50 years later


no self-respecting man would ever.

ever

ever

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Please no petty excuses.

Mujib was released long before Pakistani POW's came home.

So I urge you not to suicide bomb history in order to support any lack of tribunals or even documentation to be presented to Pakistani government.


it is like a guy was in jail as POW for 3 years.

Then he is released

then 40 odd years go by

He is dead and the jailer is dead

Then you come along and start drumming charges against the dead guy.

In the West if you do some cr@p like this, family of dead guy can bring civil suit for defamation.

But in Desi countries

sub chalta hai

And people keep on rpeating half lies, full $hit over and over in the hopes that lie repeated often can be considered a truth.

This is pathetic and no self-respecting man would ever commit baseless and false unproven accusations 40-50 years later


no self-respecting man would ever.

ever

ever

Ummm, true - releasing Mujib was a part of the deal. A part of the deal that Pakistan kept.
Recognition of a new born country is a tricky thing. Example - Israel.
So Bangladesh being recognized by Pakistan was important. Know when Pakistan recognized BD?
1974.
The crimes committed are too well documented to brush under the carpet and deny - I'm afraid.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
The crimes committed are too well documented to brush under the carpet and deny - I'm afraid.

Well that's the issue.

Either bring the accused to court and hang the mofo

or

do not accuse at all.


That's the way it is under modern law.

 

[toxic_pus]

Why my dear are you so prejudiced so full of $hit that you are ignoring a simple fact over and over and over


If Pak army was involved in any butchery,

and there was sufficient evidence to support your accusation

then

I tell you

-- Indira Gandhi would have done the trials a la nurumbarg style in no time.


Do not ever forget that all our POW all of our 50,000+ troops including TOP general(s) down to the sipahi aka foot soldier were in Indian prisons for months and months and years on end.


But there was not a single charge ever filed.


So either mourn the incompetency nay callousness of Indian leadership, judges (known among the best in the region), and the entire Indian nation including your own dad and grandpa.

Either mourn

or stop hurling childish accusations.


Thank you

After the initial holocaust of the army crack-down in Dacca, the Pakistani authorities appear to have been pursuing in particular members of three identifiable groups, namely members of the Awami League, students and Hindus. Anyone who was identified as belonging to one of these groups was liable to be shot at sight, or to be arrested and in many cases severely ill-treated, or to have his home destroyed. The fact that these groups were singled out for special attention itself militates against the finding that the intent was to destroy in whole or in part the Bengali people as such.

This does not mean, of course, that particular acts may not have constituted genocide against part of the Bengali people. In any case where large numbers were massacred and it can be shown that on the particular occasion the intent was to kill Bengalis indiscriminately as such, then a crime of genocide would be established. There would seem to be a prima facie case to show that this was the intention on some occasions, as for example during the indiscriminate killing of civilians in the poorer quarters of Dacca during the 'crack-down'.

As far as the other three groups are concerned, namely members of the Awami League, students and Hindus, only Hindus would seem to fall within the definition of 'a national, ethnical, racial or religious group'. There is overwhelming evidence that Hindus were slaughtered and their houses and villages destroyed simply because they were Hindus. The oft repeated phrase 'Hindus are enemies of the state' as a justification for the killing does not gainsay the intent to commit genocide; rather does it confirm the intention. The Nazis regarded the Jews as enemies of the state and killed them as such. In our view there is a strong prima facie case that the crime of genocide was committed against the group comprising the Hindu population of East Bengal.

International Court of Jurists, 'The Events In East Pakistan, 1971'​

OOPS....

Thank you.