What is common between 1971, 9/11, and 11/26?

[FaujHistorian]

Manekshaw did call them cowards.

"Every time I sent them in, every time they saw a burly Punjabi or Pathan, they ran, leaving their weapons behind"

Manekshaw retreads thin red line between field marshal, dismissal

Thank you. Thank you. My bro you are a worshipper of truth. It is my honor to be in your company. A true honor.

And this is why I admire I mean truly admire Gen. Manekshaw. Even though he was instrumental on defeating our army, but I'd still trade him for our 10 Islamists liar generals like Hamida bulbul and Aslam Begum.


Back to the topic!

I was hoping that @Capt.Popeye would be the one to post this.

However thanks to you, he can find the answer to my question:

Best regards

p.s.

I hope my dear posters like the following list will also update their data. But the truth should never be sacrificed at the alter of petty chauvinism. the link to indian express must be shocking for some I guess. However it is the truth.

@BeyondHeretic
@rubyjackass
@akshay gehlot
@Loki
@KRAIT
@acid rain
@Cherokee

 

[my2cents]

Indian push of 60,000 insurgents followed by an attack on E. Pakistan back in 1971 was no better than

bunch of hijackers destroying Twin Towers
or
Beardo Mullahs attack on civilians in Mumbai.




Indira made a HUGE blunder back then and so many Indian posters and analysts fail to understand the implications and continue repeating foolish victory, just like Talibarbarians dance after mumbai, or Palestinian extremists dance after 9/11.


If Indian posters want respect for Indian borders,

then learn to respect other country's borders too.

Thank you.

What respect are you talking about??

You guys started the fire in 1947 and 1965 by sending insurgents into Kashmir and occupied about half of erstwhile kingdom of Kashmir. For 24 years since independence we did not invade your eastern part because we felt that we could solve Kashmir issue through negotiation. But when you send insurgents into our country then we can play the same game and we showed you guys how effective we can be in 1971. You guys presented yourself in our platter and you think an enemy country India will not take undue advantage. That is bad judgement on your part, not realizing that your other half is very vulnerable.

The situation is not much different even now. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[FaujHistorian]

What respect are you talking about??

You guys started the fire in 1947 and 1965 by sending insurgents into Kashmir and occupied about half of erstwhile kingdom of Kashmir. For 24 years since independence we did not invade your eastern part because we felt that we could solve Kashmir issue through negotiation. But when you send insurgents into our country then we can play the same game and we showed you guys how effective we can be in 1971. You guys presented yourself in our platter and you think an enemy country India will not take undue advantage. That is bad judgement on your part, not realizing that your other half is very vulnerable.

The situation is not much different even now. Correct me if I am wrong.

Look you know me.

I am ruthless when it comes to military history.

You don't have to convince me where Pakistan made mistakes.

However just remember

two wrongs do not make it right.

just remember that.

Now if you want to discuss 65 or 47 or 48 please open a new thread.

Let's continue focusing on the main topic of the thread please.

I hope you have read the excellent work in the post #120 already.


Thank you

 

[IND151]

Are you aware Fauji that India pushing in insurgents in East Pak was in 1971?

This was after Pakistan pushed its SSG as mujahideen to incite revolt in Kashmir in 1965. That operation failed, after which regular PA had to attack.

Now whether Pakistan considers the LC as violable or not is upto them. Even back in 1965 India made it clear that an attack across the LoC is the same as attacking India at any other place.

India merely replied back in the exact same way that Pakistan did. The only difference is India succeeded while Pakistan failed.

Why to crib over it?

Add to that the Pakistani attempt to help insurgents in NE Indian in 1960s and 10 million east Pakistanis taking refuge in India, putting pressure on already overburdened Indian economy.

 

[scorpionx]

@FaujHistorian

When did Shabeg Singh took over the job to train the insurgents? Before or after 29th April?

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian

When did Shabeg Singh took over the job to train the insurgents? Before or after 29th April?

Shahbeg was a junior officer around that time. I believe a major. Concentrating on one major in the management and training of 60,000+ strong group will be militarily incorrect nay childish.

For 60,000+ force you need at least two to three brigadiers, perhaps 2-star general(s) too.

My humble analysis allows me to see that Gen. Manekshaw used him as a metaphor for many more Indian majors and captains, and most importantly 100s of JCOs who became insurgents and/or insurgents' trainers the way you want to look at.


Plans for the insurgency were drawn in 67-68.

So Shabeg Singh's specific role and dates should be viewed in light of the BIG picture.

Shabeg being a lowly major was incharge of just one group.


Thank you.

Add to that the Pakistani attempt to help insurgents in NE Indian in 1960s and 10 million east Pakistanis taking refuge in India, putting pressure on already overburdened Indian economy.

Please be "military smart" before adding any kind of excuses or reasons.

As per the top ranked Indian generals and politicians, there is no evidence that in March 1971 10,000,000 refugees were camped in India. Not possible. This is a hyper-inflated number, and NE insurgency from E. Pakistan is a red herring.

Thank you.

 

[my2cents]

India pushed insurgents in the states of Hyderabad and Junagadh because base populations were majority Hindus (or non-Muslims).

This was followed by INdian army going in to demolish the princely states.


Pakistan did the same with the princely states of Kashmir in 1948.


So compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

My history teacher (Mr. Bulldog)who participated in the struggle against Nizam's razakar men told us very vividly how he and his friends took lot of beatings and kicks and how his village women were raped and molested for going against Nizam's decision to remain independent. It was mostly local movement until the Indian union sent in the army.

 

[INDIC]

My history teacher (Mr. Bulldog)who participated in the struggle against Nizam's razakar men told us very vividly how he and his friends took lot of beatings and kicks and how his village women were raped and molested for going against Nizam's decision to remain independent. It was mostly local movement until the Indian union sent in the army.

Razakars were also receiving weapons from Pakistan.

 

[scorpionx]

Plans for the insurgency were drawn in 67-68.
Thank you.

My question is very specific sirjee. Agartala conspiracy case might have initiated the process of an Armed/forcible solution to create independent Bangladesh. But when did the Niyomito bahini/Regular forces (the military branch of MB) started receiving direct support from the Indian Army? 1967-68? I guess,no. It was only after April'1971 Army took over the job from the hand of BSF. I am still searching for documents to support your claim,not mine. If you help me with some links,that will be much appreciated.

Secondly, yes.There is no specific estimation of actual influx on migrants during the first half of '71. That might be threatening to the socio-economic balance of the eastern and north eastern states of India or that might not be just enough to engage in bifurcating our arch enemy.We simply do not know. But the state archives do state the fact that the large scale migration was imposing an extra ordinary pressure on our economical and demographical structure.So,we have still stuck ourselves in that. I will post datas from archives if available,how situation was grieve in West Bengal and North Eastern States like Assam.


PS: BTW,I am also waiting just like @Capt.Popeye for your response in Nehru and Azad thread. I am no one to debunk your claim,but just curious to know about the source of that claim. No offence,just curiosity.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Razakars were also receiving weapons from Pakistan.

you know what Razakar means?

Right?

 

[bronxbull]

it means volunteer but just like so many terms and their meanings,it only matters who popularised/unpopularised it the most.

 

[FaujHistorian]

My question is very specific sirjee. Agartala conspiracy case might have initiated the process of an Armed/forcible solution to create independent Bangladesh. But when did the Niyomito bahini/Regular forces (the military branch of MB) started receiving direct support from the Indian Army? 1967-68? I guess,no. It was only after April'1971 Army took over the job from the hand of BSF. I am still searching for documents to support your claim,not mine. If you help me with some links,that will be much appreciated.

Secondly, yes.There is no specific estimation of actual influx on migrants during the first half of '71. That might be threatening to the socio-economic balance of the eastern and north eastern states of India or that might not be just enough to engage in bifurcating our arch enemy.We simply do not know. But the state archives do state the fact that the large scale migration was imposing an extra ordinary pressure on our economical and demographical structure.So,we have still stuck ourselves in that. I will post datas from archives if available,how situation was grieve in West Bengal and North Eastern States like Assam.


PS: BTW,I am also waiting just like @Capt.Popeye for your response in Nehru and Azad thread. I am no one to debunk your claim,but just curious to know about the source of that claim. No offence,just curiosity.

My issue with both Pakistan and Indian militaries is always there.

That we desi people are very poor historians. We do not have a will to save and display records from 1830s Afghan wars, 1857 details of mutiny, WW-1 and WW-2 records.

For the 1971 fiasco, my estimation on timeline is based on the 2011 statements of Agartala Treason Case guys. From their statements, it is evident that military training plans were well in place by the end of 1968.


in either case, 10,000,000 E. Pakistanis in Indian camps is hyper inflated number as you said, in the first half of 1971.

So I hope we agree on this point and not bring it up again.


p.s.

Remember so many of Indian posters attacked me and mocked me for bringing up Gen. Manekshaw and Indian insurgency.

Hopefully you now have a proof from an Indian source.

Just wait and you will see more on Nehru too.

Just wait.


Because I do not believe in sacred cows and I hope you don't as well.

 

[INDIC]

you know what Razakar means?

Right?

How is the meaning even relevant here. It seem you need to read a lot about Hyderabad before narrating me the your Sarkari school school crap.

 

[FaujHistorian]

How is the meaning even relevant here. It seem you need to read a lot about Hyderabad before narrating me the your Sarkari school school crap.

You mentioned the term, and I asked you to explain the meaning.

Why so antsy pantsy?

For Hyderabad please open a new thread and I'd love to discuss it.


Thank you.

My history teacher (Mr. Bulldog)who participated in the struggle against Nizam's razakar men told us very vividly how he and his friends took lot of beatings and kicks and how his village women were raped and molested for going against Nizam's decision to remain independent. It was mostly local movement until the Indian union sent in the army.

Please open a new thread on Hyderabad. It deserves its own thread. Don't you think so?

 

[scorpionx]

Remember so many of you guys attacked me for bringing up Gen. Manekshaw and Indian insurgency.

Just wait and you will see more on Nehru too.

Just wait.

"Attack" is a very harsh word,Fauji sahib.From me you only get heartiest respect and only respect. I am just waiting for your valuable input on that thread. Insult has hardly any place in teaching/learning process.This is our culture for thousand years and I stick to that.