What if the Ottoman Empire never fell?

[FuturePAF]

The value of unity and not getting into useless wars has served many nations well. I found this interesting “What If” video which starts with the Ottoman Empire not joining the central powers in WW1. The knock on effects are very interesting. A better alternative history (except for the Kenyans) and shows how all else being equal, being strong enough domestically to avoid being dragged into foreign entanglements opens up many more opportunities down the line. Nations need not sell themselves short.

 

[maverick1977]

The value of unity and not getting into useless wars has served many nations well. I found this interesting “What If” video which starts with the Ottoman Empire not joining the central powers in WW1. The knock on effects are very interesting. A better alternative history (except for the Kenyans) and shows how all else being equal, being strong enough domestically to avoid being dragged into foreign entanglements opens up many more opportunities down the line. Nations need not sell themselves short.

There is not a single day that goes by that i dont think of it.. the pain of disunity and suffering, the injustice in this world wants the usmania sorta khilafa to come back

 

[PakFactor]

There is not a single day that goes by that i dont think of it.. the pain of disunity and suffering, the injustice in this world wants the usmania sorta khilafa to come back

Tell me about it, the traitors threw future generations into the shredder.
Had they survived long enough and absorbed other Islamic nations into it's union we would have been a sizeable empire of 1.2B people with vast resources and talents.
But all this is gone thanks to camel herders who thought they knew diplomacy.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

There is not a single day that goes by that i dont think of it.. the pain of disunity and suffering, the injustice in this world wants the usmania sorta khilafa to come back

Osmani Sultanate never ruled modern day Pakistan.

I never understand this strange call for "unity" amongst Muslim nations. It sounds daft.

In the olden days, there would be one powerful Muslim tribe/city/Kingdom that would invade and conquer other Muslim lands through mostly violent warfare and turn it into a large empire over time. There was never like "united cities" or "united empires" but instead everybody wanted to take over everybody else.

Today, there isn't a strong enough Muslim nation that can invade and conquer other Muslim nations. End of the day which Muslim nation state wants to be ruled by another Muslim nation state?

Let's put it this wa:; how many Pakistanis want Pakistan to become part of Afghanistan so it becomes a large Muslim country? How many Pakistanis want Pakistan to become part of Bangladesh for that same reason?

It's unthinkable, not going to happen. So why and what are Muslims always preaching about "Muslim unity" when they don't want their own country to be merged with another Muslim country.

Some people look at the West (US, Canada and Europe) and see that as a united Western Hemisphere but they forget that the US has military bases in 13 European countries. The US invaded Europe in the 1940s and built permanent military bases on the continent.

The US as a super-state applies unbearable pressure on those countries as and when it's required to steer the conquered sheep in a certain direction and it silences all voices against it. Now, Europeans mostly accept the US dictation as they put their economy before their sovereignty, independence and self-respect as nations, hence, the hemisphere appear united as a single entity.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Only HE is Ba'ki, everything and everyone else is Fa'ni...

The Ottoman Empire had to taste death. It doesn't mean another Muslim power, even much more powerful than the Ottomans, won't rise up from the ashes....

 

[FuturePAF]

Only HE is Ba'ki, everything and everyone else is Fa'ni...

The Ottoman Empire had to taste death. It doesn't mean another Muslim power, even much more powerful than the Ottomans, won't rise up from the ashes....

It is as is instructed to us in the Holy Quran

Surah Al-Ma'idah - 54 - Quran.com

O believers! Whoever among you abandons their faith, Allah will replace them with others who love Him and are loved by Him. They will be humble with t...

quran.com

This reminds me of the narrations of how the Mongols destroyed Baghdad. The Ruler has been hoarding gold, and what the Mongol leader told the ruler of Baghdad.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

It depends on a lot of factors...

If this surviving Ottoman State didn't lose the Arabian Gulf, it'd be a wealthy carbon power, for a start. I don't think it would've poured that money into developing Dubai, Doha, etc.

Rather, that money may have gone to (1) funding its military, (2) enriching Anatolia and Levant, and (3) buying support/loyalty in North Africa and -- I think -- South Asia (i.e., Afghanistan, Pakistan and India).

I don't think either Pakistan or India would've been born.

I think South Asia would've remained a composition of smaller states. The Ottomans would've used the carbon wealth to buy links in both Muslim and Hindu-run princely states. I'm not sure it would've backed one party to takeover all of India as that would result in a rival Islamic power that might try invading the Arabian Peninsula.

However, with the oil wealth in hand, it might have tried invading Central Asia through Afghanistan. In this case, Central Asia might be a major power too (owing to its own carbon wealth).

 

[FuturePAF]

It depends on a lot of factors...

If this surviving Ottoman State didn't lose the Arabian Gulf, it'd be a wealthy carbon power, for a start. I don't think it would've poured that money into developing Dubai, Doha, etc.

Rather, that money may have gone to (1) funding its military, (2) enriching Anatolia and Levant, and (3) buying support/loyalty in North Africa and -- I think -- South Asia (i.e., Afghanistan, Pakistan and India).

I don't think either Pakistan or India would've been born.

I think South Asia would've remained a composition of smaller states. The Ottomans would've used the carbon wealth to buy links in both Muslim and Hindu-run princely states. I'm not sure it would've backed one party to takeover all of India as that would result in a rival Islamic power that might try invading the Arabian Peninsula.

However, with the oil wealth in hand, it might have tried invading Central Asia through Afghanistan. In this case, Central Asia might be a major power too (owing to its own carbon wealth).

Had the Ottomans sat out both world wars (I know it sat out the second), it could have spend the oil wealth on rapid industrialization and still joined NATO to even more encircle the Soviet Union as Turkey did in the real timeline.

I agree it would have tried to buy soft power influence in parts of its former empire; North Africa and the Balkans, but Indont think it would have undermined the creation of Pakistan, as the Muslims of British India had made overtures of friendship to the Ottoman rulers. Besides, WW2 has weakened the British to the point of not being able to fund their empire.

The Ottomans, Shah’s Iran and Pakistan, as frontline states against the Soviet Union during the Cold War would have also played a stabilizing force in the region. They would also be great trading partners for both the west, soviets, and Asia as they looked to rebuild after WW2.

On the military front, Turkey’s defense production would have kept pace with any major powers as it could have invested heavily in R&D from the start of all the major weapons systems we see today.

 

[BRAVO_]

it was suppose to happened and it happened ... after all kingdom of Allah will live forever rest of everything deemed to be parished .. but common interests are forcing countries like azerbaijan turky and pakistan to make allience if karabakh war continued soon we will see arab openly taking sides with armenia while russia and europe are already helping them...russia is biggest supplier of gas to turkey .. however now turkey is trying to establish its own energy corridor through azerbaijan staright to turkey and taking it to europe while pakistan was hopping after chinies aggrements with iran to reach azerbaijan through connecting same route which was starting from chahbhar to eastren europe on the other hand russia dont want turkey to be energy independent so just before the inauguration of azer-turk gas pipe line a new front has been opened so turkey pakistan and azerbaijan are realizing this fact that they should stand togather or else internaional politics is ruthless and their enemies are slowly surrounding them to take them one by one

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Had the Ottomans sat out both world wars (I know it sat out the second), it could have spend the oil wealth on rapid industrialization and still joined NATO to even more encircle the Soviet Union as Turkey did in the real timeline.

I agree it would have tried to buy soft power influence in parts of its former empire; North Africa and the Balkans, but Indont think it would have undermined the creation of Pakistan, as the Muslims of British India had made overtures of friendship to the Ottoman rulers. Besides, WW2 has weakened the British to the point of not being able to fund their empire.

The Ottomans, Shah’s Iran and Pakistan, as frontline states against the Soviet Union during the Cold War would have also played a stabilizing force in the region. They would also be great trading partners for both the west, soviets, and Asia as they looked to rebuild after WW2.

On the military front, Turkey’s defense production would have kept pace with any major powers as it could have invested heavily in R&D from the start of all the major weapons systems we see today.

I think the vast oil wealth would've given the Ottomans a new found cushion to stay out of others' fighters. I do think it would open a front against the Soviets in Central Asia, but I doubt they'd ally with the British or the Americans. Basically, the latter would want to take control of the oil wealth, so Ottoman policy experts would need to sense that and, in general, keep such entities far and away from their corridors.

As for South Asia, the Ottomans would want to push the British out of the region. To do that, they will need to back both Muslim and Hindu-run powers. I think South Asia would have reverted to its pre-Mughal form with multiple smaller powers, and the Ottomans would've wanted them to balance each other off to (1) prevent a rival big power from rising in South Asia and (2) to keep others out. If others come in, the Ottomans will fight against that side, even if they're Muslim (because they'd be backed by a foreign power).

 

[FuturePAF]

I think the vast oil wealth would've given the Ottomans a new found cushion to stay out of others' fighters. I do think it would open a front against the Soviets in Central Asia, but I doubt they'd ally with the British or the Americans. Basically, the latter would want to take control of the oil wealth, so Ottoman policy experts would need to sense that and, in general, keep such entities far and away from their corridors.

As for South Asia, the Ottomans would want to push the British out of the region. To do that, they will need to back both Muslim and Hindu-run powers. I think South Asia would have reverted to its pre-Mughal form with multiple smaller powers, and the Ottomans would've wanted them to balance each other off to (1) prevent a rival big power from rising in South Asia and (2) to keep others out. If others come in, the Ottomans will fight against that side, even if they're Muslim (because they'd be backed by a foreign power).

All Great points. Perhaps not a member of NATO, but they would definitely work with anyone that would help them counter their traditional adversary, the Russians. The worked with the British in the Crimean war and even purchased major military equipment prior to WW1.

Having gone through WW2, I agree the western powers would be weary of a new major power forming under their noses and with such vast oil wealth, considering the Soviet Union fits that description as well.

This would be where OttomanDiplomacy would have to win the day for the Turks, and play on the fears of the Soviet Union and Communist China to win some kind of understanding with the western powers.

As far as Pakistan is concerned. I agree they would try to be friendly to any successor states to the British Raj, and play one off the other as Muslim rulers of India never sought to join the Ottomans in our timeline. So a healthy distance would be a wise option. Should one or more of the successor states choose to ally with the Ottomans, it may change the dynamic, but that’s a hypothetical on top of a hypothetical.

 

[INS_Vikrant]

Most replies here are on assumptions of Ottoman state in early 1900s was at the same level as it was at its height of power in 15th to 17th century which sadly for them was not the case. By 1900 ottoman was already in dying state rightly referred to as sick man of Europe, while other European countries had began rapidly industrializing it was still languishing back, its military was weak and after a series of lost wars it lost territories both in Europe and North Africa, religious and ethnic divide was so bad that even muslims of non Turkish heritage started rebelling. Even without world War one ottoman sultanate was headed for a collapse, the war just expedited the process by a decade or two. But for Turkey the fall of ottoman was a blessing in disguise as under Ataturk they made rapid progess in industrialization bridging the gap with other European countries.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Most replies here are on assumptions of Ottoman state in early 1900s was at the same level as it was at its height of power in 15th to 17th century which sadly for them was not the case. By 1900 ottoman was already in dying state rightly referred to as sick man of Europe, while other European countries had began rapidly industrializing it was still languishing back, its military was weak and after a series of lost wars it lost territories both in Europe and North Africa, religious and ethnic divide was so bad that even muslims of non Turkish heritage started rebelling. Even without world War one ottoman sultanate was headed for a collapse, the war just expedited the process by a decade or two. But for Turkey the fall of ottoman was a blessing in disguise as under Ataturk they made rapid progess in industrialization bridging the gap with other European countries.

oil money tho...oil money...it fix everything.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

If World War 1 Did not happen

> Oil would have been discovered on Ottoman Saudi Arabia
> Gas would have been discovered in Ottoman Qatar
> Oil gas would have ben discovered in Ottoman UAE
> There would have been massive rail network across all of Arabian continent in 1950's
> The Nation would have enjoyed wealth of massive proportions
> Education reforms would have ensured massive rise in Education level across Africa/ Middle East
> May be Music would be more prominent , Turkish Style Music across most of Ottoman Empire
> Major Automobile Segment would have been established in Muslims countries
> Progress on Space front would have happened along side USA/Russia/Ottoman Empire
> The Black Burka of Saudi style would not have happened
> More focus would be on Sports and Athletics due to wealth accumulation
> Steam suna/Hammam's would have been more common
> Turkish building architecture with Arches would have been massively adopted in Large constructions
> I would imagine Ottomans would be mega adopters of Trains as they were laying train back in 1900's
> Colorful Clothes would have been worn in Empire made of high quality silk
> Schools would be free based on wealth accumulation
> Age of Space would have arrived on bigger scale for residents of Earth
> Turkish Language would have been the biggest language on planet beside English/French

Note , World War 1 put the seeds for World War 2

Cities would have this kind of architecture across empire , if Ottoman Empire was still present in tact

• Stone/Marble based construction would be very common
• High quality Carpets / Rugs would have been common across the Empire
• Shawarma would be biggest Fast Food , instead of Pizza or Burgers
• People would have been able to travel by Train from Pakistan to Morocco by Train on 1 passport
• The demographics of countries would be more mixed
• I think Classical music of Turkish origin would be very common across 50% of planet
• Egypt-Libya would be more like UAE
• I think people playing music instrument would have been more as Ottoman Empire had lot of musicians
• Great Libraries would be present

 

[jamahir]

Is this pic from a film or a game ?