What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC.

[Fireaxe888]

STOBAR *AND* CATOBAR? Lunacy. For a large carrier CATOBAR is the only option - with STOBAR your carrier is limited mainly to fleet air defense due to the low payloads imposed by the ski jump. CATOBAR turns your carrier into a real force projection platform - the main purpose of carriers today.

 

[surya kiran]

CATOBAR turns your carrier into a real force projection platform

Ours is a peaceful aircraft carrier

 

[Taygibay]

Thats happens, but things are changing. They're rusted buckets are bombing the crap out of ISIS.

Wait, Jatt! You must differentiate between naval and aeronautic construction.
The Russian plane makers ( almost no need for an S due to consolidation of industry )
are still very up there today ... but not their shipyards!
Please check around and ask people in the know! Underfunding and so lack of projects
have almost wiped out their mil naval industry.

And I am not pushing my national products here. India will buy or associate with whomever it wants.
All I'm saying is that RU is not a credible source for big modern vessels at the moment.

Good day to you and all, Tay.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Russians went to French for LHD not because they lack innovation . But the lack enough funds for on going projects itself.

Either way, the Russians have chronically underfunded their defence industry, it isn't for Indian taxpayer money to go to Russia to help boost their capabilties when India is trying to develop these capabilties for itself. Remember the Talwar debacle- 100s of millions over budget, why? Because the Russians were taking the money the IN had given to produce their frigates to upgrade the Yantar shipyard to fulfill Russian navy orders. It will happen again if you go with Russia.

So îndią should use this opportunity to build two 65 k T AC . one with US and the other with Russians at the same time . Both super powers will compete against each others . Îndią will have three AC only after 2026/27 that's 10 more years away .

Simply unfeasible, the IN wants to settle on 1-2 designs (IAC1 and IAC-2) for the long term and pump them out, having two carrier designs from very different nations will only add to a logistical headache for the IN, it isn't a sustainable concept and I assure you it won't happen.

As I have been saying, this issue is being conflated- the IN is NOT interested in an off the shelf design but a technical PARTNER for peer review of THEIR (NDB's) design for the IAC-2 and input on two areas the NDB have little expereince in- propulsion and catapults. As such France, the US and to a lesser extent Russia can assist in these technical elements for the IN's own design for the IAC-2. The partner will contribute to one design and this will be produced in India- it's as simple as that. Trying to play off Russia and the US will bring about absolutely zero benefit to the IN, it will only add delays and needless complexity.

Can current Mig29K Indian Navy operate take off from CATOBAR aircraft carrier?

No.

It will be mixed of both Stobar and Catobar....( 2 launch platforms for each). Also here its about IAC-3. Ins Vishall( IAC-2) is with USA' help.

This mixed STOBAR/CATOBAR has no interest from the IN at all, the Russians are blowing smoke, no one is listening.

PS: This will be fourth Indian cartier( IAC-3) with close to 100000 ton displacement. ( if russian proposal is selected then Naval Pak-fa will be prime fighter on this)

IAC-3 is a LONG way away, it won't be in service before 2040 at the earliest. The IN is going to pump out 3-4 IAC-2 class first- confirmed.


@PARIKRAMA

 

[desimorty]

Wait, Jatt! You must differentiate between naval and aeronautic construction.
The Russian plane makers ( almost no need for an S due to consolidation of industry )
are still very up there today ... but not their shipyards!
Please check around and ask people in the know! Underfunding and so lack of projects
have almost wiped out their mil naval industry.

And I am not pushing my national products here. India will buy or associate with whomever it wants.
All I'm saying is that RU is not a credible source for big modern vessels at the moment.

Good day to you and all, Tay.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 3

Agreed, a lot of their yards are in need of of sweepers and new tools but they still have the designers, engineers and skilled labourers. It may not be the best of quality but the are the yards that still build Yasen class SSN. With enough money, they are credible. However they are lacking. doesn't mean India should pass up their expertise and chase after unreliable vendors.

Russia has neglected R&D for too long. Currently it is reaping fruits which USSR sowed.

In case of Shipbuilding industry, India has objectively become advanced enough that Russia could contribute very little by way of technological support. It has to go to French to build its Amphibious assault ships.

And regarding vikrant: What major thing ,except Mig-29K and arrestor wire and gears, is Russian? All major parts of Vikrant are either western or Indian. They were supposed to supply carrier grade steel, but they reneged and it was SAIL who came up with Carrier grade steel.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 2

Russia doesn't contribute? Arihant is what it is today because of Russian engineers and designers. How good is the Arihant? Well, its better than anything our neibhours have except the USN, despite the fact this is India's first nuclear submarine, it IS NOT Russias first.

What good is lower flyway cost when life time cost is higher?

A Mig-29K ,though a very good platform, is still objectively inferior to Rafael-M , F-35C, and future N-AMCA, and N-FGFA is neither suitable for carrier operation (due to its size and weight class) and is as much a paper plane as N-AMCA is . Using Mig-29 from a CATOBAR carrier would be a waste of that Carrier's potential.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 2

What good is Rafale if IN runs out of munitions for it?

That Saudi led ISIS does not have an Airforce, and no one could come out to defend it from air-attacks without being eviscerated in public opinion and being attacked by Russia, which Arabs with their useless ground armies, could not afford.

Again, even Spitfire would bomb the crap out of ISIS and their beloved goats and donkeys.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 2

Point stands, Russia is the 2nd most powerfull/ effective military on this planet even if they have smaller budget.

A Soviet legacy.

If India wants, it could expand its Project 15A/B program to produce cruisers, rather than Vanilla destroyers.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 2

Russia is a Soviet legacy. Yes, but the Delhi class was designed with inputs from Russia, hence its similarities to Sovernmy class, and where else could we find a 500+ supersonic cruise missile?

I give them enough credit, but seems like fellow Indians are not giving enough credit to Indian Shipbuilding Industry.

They have a good shipbuilding industry, but with the development in Indian shipbuilding capability over last decade and half, technological gap between Russians and Indians has narrowed down significantly.

Benefits of tying up with French or Americans is much higher than Russian in case of surface ships.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 2

I'll give them credit. But this compacity you see in Indian docks are their because of foreign suppliers and vendors. Not that it matters anymore, but the Russians are the ones whom "enabled" India to become a military power!
Who else will sell SSN to India? Amerika?
Who else will see 3 ton super sonic cruisemissiles with ToT and forgo the MTCR? Amerika?
Who helped India with Agni technology and canistered launch tech? Amerika?
Who helped India with underwater missile launch technology? Amerika?

The Russians have been invaluable for India. Just because India is more competent than before, does not mean India should disregard Russian mil, industrail complex. Infact, if I was a policy maker, i'd tie up with Russia on military technology as equals. Which is exactly what Putin, and Singh has done in the early century.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The Russians have been invaluable for India. Just because India is more competent than before, does not mean India should disregard Russian mil, industrail complex. Infact, if I was a policy maker, i'd tie up with Russia on military technology as equals. Which is exactly what Putin, and Singh has done in the early century.

Russia is a nation in decline, it can't even fund its ongoing commitments let alone work on next generation technology. Look at the state its economy is in- do you think they are in a position to offer dependable and cutting edge assistance to India? Even before Putin engaged in his nonsensical military adventures the Russians were busy ripping India off (Vikramditya, Talwars, T-90, MTA, FGFA, etc etc), now they are in no position to sustain a strategic partnership.


There is no room for nostalgia in international relations, whatever the USSR was decades ago, modern day Russia certainly is not. Aside from aerospace, the Russian defence industry is woefully underfunded and rotting. Their day has come and gone, India shouldn't latch itself to a losing horse.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

IMHO after Baku aka Adm Gorky aka Vikramaditya experience, anything critical like ACC will see limited participation of Russia. The Catobar design will see a western consultancy.. As i said outside USA, the closest choice would be France's DCNS.. Their expertise would come near to Reactor zone.. The design will be by our inhouse NDB but crucial changes would be made at structural and design level to accommodate all safety aspect.

I dont see Mig29k in catobar ops nor any heavier N FGFA.. it would be medium category RafaleM and AMCA

I can vouch clearly that after Rafale IAF/IN wont induct another 4.5th Gen bird other than home grown LCA Tejas.

Their plan is clear about iin future AMCA/FGFA in IAF and AMCA N for IN. So i dont see any scope for MIg29Ks at all..

 

[desimorty]

Russia is a nation in decline, it can't even fund its ongoing commitments let alone work on next generation technology. Look at the state its economy is in- do you think they are in a position to offer dependable and cutting edge assistance to India? Even before Putin engaged in his nonsensical military adventures the Russians were busy ripping India off (Vikramditya, Talwars, T-90, MTA, FGFA, etc etc), now they are in no position to sustain a strategic partnership.


There is no room for nostalgia in international relations, whatever the USSR was decades ago, modern day Russia certainly is not. Aside from aerospace, the Russian defence industry is woefully underfunded and rotting. Their day has come and gone, India shouldn't latch itself to a losing horse.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 3

Russia was, is stagnet. But India isn't. India needs resources and Russia has it. Russia has a huge potential to meet the energy demands of Asia. This has yet to be realized. Russia is not ripping India off. Your just misinformed as a lot of people are.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Russia was, is stagnet. But India isn't. India needs resources and Russia has it. Russia has a huge potential to meet the energy demands of Asia.

Energy requirements are a different matter.

This has yet to be realized. Russia is not ripping India off. Your just misinformed as a lot of people are.

Misinformed?

Talwars--> 20% price increase and delivered >1 year late
Vikramditya---> >150% price increase and delivered 5 years late
FGFA---> nowhere to be seen after Russia had assured India they would get their first prototype in 2014
MRTA---> The customer (IAF) asks for FADEC engines, for years the Russians ignore this request and now have all but killed it (as far as India is concerned).
AN-32RE---> Upgrade deal sabotaged after Russia's aggression in Crimea leading to >30% of the fleet being grounded today.
T-90---> delivered late and without the critical ToT the Russians had promised


This is hardly the foundation of a strategic partnership.


India and Russia can remain close but the days when India relied on the Russians is long gone.

 

[Penguin]

project 23000e. A project number suggests a russian navy project. It is however a Krylov model, a private venture AFAIk.

 

[desimorty]

Misinformed?

Talwars--> 20% price increase and delivered >1 year late
Vikramditya---> >150% price increase and delivered 5 years late
FGFA---> nowhere to be seen after Russia had assured India they would get their first prototype in 2014
MRTA---> The customer (IAF) asks for FADEC engines, for years the Russians ignore this request and now have all but killed it (as far as India is concerned).
AN-32RE---> Upgrade deal sabotaged after Russia's aggression in Crimea leading to >30% of the fleet being grounded today.
T-90---> delivered late and without the critical ToT the Russians had promised


This is hardly the foundation of a strategic partnership.


India and Russia can remain close but the days when India relied on the Russians is long gone.

Source: What if Russian Project 23000E can be base for future Indian nuclear AC. | Page 3

Alright, you right. You know it all. You should really run the FO of Delhi because you can pick up on news articles.
I do however have one question for you. Which nation would let India lease and buy a SSN?

 

[Abingdonboy]

Which nation would let India lease and buy a SSN?

You think Russia gets nothing from this? Pawning off their rusting assets to a friendly nation at a hefty premium is just sound business.

Stop getting lost in nostalgia and hung up on the past. 2016's Russia needs 2016's India much more than the reverse.

+ India can't actually buy a SSN from anyone- that's why the "leasing" arrangment was created that is ownership by another name.

 

[axisofevil]

Do like China....employ and buy off Russian engineers and scientists.

 

[$@rJen]

It looks like STOBAR carrier.. why would we need a Nuke carrier with STOBAR capability???

 

[PARIKRAMA]

if i may add the reason for a bigger carrier with a fleet of minimum 3-4 squadrons of a top end 4.5+ Gen fighter to later 5th Gen fighter is bcz that fleet will also be potentially be a N arm under triad. The triad of land, air and sea will soon handing over certain "strategic goods" to IN for SSBNs as well as thats the basis of creating a formidable mini airforce which can reach the numbers of almost 50-60% of IAF numbers. Probably becoming the 2nd most powerful AF in SE Asia.

When we consider such a possibility a 65-70K tonne ACC sporting STOBAR limits the aircraft capability and also the ordinance + fuel+ reach range. Of course refuellers gives them longer aerial time but still it does not work as a optimum solution.

Thus i dont think STOBAR is what we are looking at.. and CATOBAR i feel since Russia is not having any CATOBAR carriers it does not make much sense to invite them here to make our ACC or use this design for IAC2.