What if PAF has to defend on two fronts?

[BATMAN]

Hi,

It really is a shame on part of the participants who donot do any research before they write over here.

First of all---there are no more thousand aircraft sorties any more---a single B2 can deliver hundreds of times more bombs than possibly a sqdrn of A 5 's----next when the USAF attacks, it is the only air force operating in that theatre---no other air force is capable to compete and match with them and niether does u s allows them to operate.

Case in point----the 1 st gulf war----israelis wanted to attack iraq---but were firmly subdued---for they didnot have the capabilities of usaf. When the british airforce or the french operate---they operate with the permission of the usaf so that they may believe that they have not been left behind.

The usaf would only need a few B 2 to bring pakistan to its knees within 24 to 48 hours at the most---as a matter of fact----during the 1 st hour of the attack pakistan's fate would be sealed---.

Bottomline----" I would say that pakistan as we know would have met its demise during the very first hour of strile by the USAF "---after that it would be total plastering and for after effect purposes----which means that pakistan may live but might be worse than somalia.

Unlike iraq-----pakistan has many a strategic choke points---.

You are right and only for this reason india is building diplomatic relations with US since 9/11 and we all know it all started when indians offered to Bush administration there army and logisitcs albiet they attack Pakistan.
We also know that in 80's india declined Israeli offer twice because they were not so sure.

I personally believe that Pakistan will have to face more than one foreign nation in any future conflict. On top of that traitors (politicians and media) and anti state elements.

I hope our military planners will not rule out possibility of aggression from northern front.
Present day Afghan army command is comprised of warlords and terrorists from northern alliance, reinforced by 150,000 indian troops.
US drones may also participate in helping troop’s movement.

Pakistan should not indulge in classic war. Against india only ground defence should be used together with limited air force and remaining airforce should be accumulated at northern fronts to counter possible aggression by any third party.
Few babur and ghauri should be sent to major indian cities and that would be enough to burst indian jingoistic bubble.
In case india use any third party than those BABUR's and GHAURI's should be tipped with strategic arsenal.

 

[batmannow]

You are right and only for this reason india is building diplomatic relations with US since 9/11 and we all know it all started when indians offered to Bush administration there army and logisitcs albiet they attack Pakistan.
We also know that in 80's india declined Israeli offer twice because they were not so sure.

I personally believe that Pakistan will have to face more than one foreign nation in any future conflict. On top of that traitors (politicians and media) and anti state elements.

I hope our military planners will not rule out possibility of aggression from northern front.
Present day Afghan army command is comprised of warlords and terrorists from northern alliance, reinforced by 150,000 indian troops.
US drones may also participate in helping troop’s movement.

Pakistan should not indulge in classic war. Against india only ground defence should be used together with limited air force and remaining airforce should be accumulated at northern fronts to counter possible aggression by any third party.
Few babur and ghauri should be sent to major indian cities and that would be enough to burst indian jingoistic bubble.
In case india use any third party than those BABUR's and GHAURI's should be tipped with strategic arsenal.

hounrable BATMAN; sir
when i started this thread , many peopl's were laughing , that its really beyond reallity thing, but for now many of our commrads thinks that , it is possible.
what i guss , that its really immposible for PAF to match USAF +ALLIES on one side , & defend itself , from IAF on the other front, but its eqully crazy to underestimate PAF!
I think , PAF can bring real dammge to every one, some our senior commrads were right that B-52 can destroy many parts of pakistan, so i guss its willbe very good to target anyone , anywhere , whoever! gives any support to USAF+ALLIES+IAF , with our missiles!
with out matching USAF , with OUR PAF!
I am still confident , that PAF can also bring a lot of dammge to USAF in very frist hour, with PAF GOING ONLY AFTER FOR BIG BIRDS(B-52), & ATTACKING ALL THE AFGHAN AIR BASSES, by ground to ground missilles?

i think , by just looking , by just disscussing ones ablity! isnt simply fare enough!
"In case india use any third party than those BABUR's and GHAURI's should be tipped with strategic arsenal"

i really like to thanks a lot to you, of your bold & brave thinking !
unlike others , who are sacred of battle " which is being , brought on to us"

 

[Kharian_Beast]

hounrable BATMAN; sir
when i started this thread , many peopl's were laughing , that its really beyond reallity thing, but for now many of our commrads thinks that , it is possible.

^ Indeed I believe Batmannow was the first one to initiate a thread hypothesizing Indian aerial action on Pakistan and I was also the first one to laugh at him, for that foresight my friend I give you 100 humble thanks.

what i guss , that its really immposible for PAF to match USAF +ALLIES on one side , & defend itself , from IAF on the other front, but its eqully crazy to underestimate PAF!
I think , PAF can bring real dammge to every one, some our senior commrads were right that B-52 can destroy many parts of pakistan, so i guss its willbe very good to target anyone , anywhere , whoever! gives any support to USAF+ALLIES+IAF , with our missiles!
with out matching USAF , with OUR PAF!
I am still confident , that PAF can also bring a lot of dammge to USAF in very frist hour, with PAF GOING ONLY AFTER FOR BIG BIRDS(B-52), & ATTACKING ALL THE AFGHAN AIR BASSES, by ground to ground missilles?

Going after B-52 wouldn't be impossible with AIM120C5 and Darters fired from Mirage. As for the Afghans, we have our own Lashkars we can send deep into Afghanistan. If we can send in 300,000 then there is no chance anyone will want to come down into Pakistan anytime soon.

 

[Firebird_80]

your another very insecure on the forums

Pakistan ZINDABAD

what a well thought out and logical rebuttal ..... why dont you stop wasting the bandwidth if there is nothing good you can contribute except drivel?

 

[Firebird_80]

Which scenario did I create? I think you are mixing things here ….My post # 91 was in reply to Always Neutrals post #71 in which he flew 2000 fighters in 2 hours and jammed everything and destroyed whole PAF in 2 hours…here it is for your ref:



SO please let me know that my which post had a scenario in it that gave you the jitters?? …What’s the post # ?

As far as sarcasm, dude when you quote statements like below and ridicule my Army, be ready to face the same from others….



I agree with you that possiblity of multiple attacks cannot be ruled out in the present scenarion...The threat is real.. But I dont think that it will be kind of joint effort by so many contries you earlier stated...While PAFs resources will be saturated, but It wont scumb as easily as some posters mentioned..

The response posted by you in Number 116.

Jitters because in multiple attacks, the scenario may see immediate use of nuclear weapons in strategic role early in conflic.

Never called PA and ISI nutcases, I meant fundamentalists elements .... and there are those now in PA and ISI too ....

PAF just wont be able to take the heat as much as IAF or any other AF ..... its pure simple and honest fact. The force wil be overwhelming in any combination as PAF resources are known.

 

[x_man]

there are those now in PA and ISI too ....

Nutcases are in IA and RAW too...its nothing new...they are everywhere!!

PAF just wont be able to take the heat as much as IAF or any other AF

Prove it with examples....Also how do you compare the IAF doctrine with PAFs one ?

 

[Patriot]

Firebird:- X-man is former PAF Pilot so he knows a lot more about PAF then you.

 

[Firebird_80]

Nutcases are in IA and RAW too...its nothing new...they are everywhere!!



Prove it with examples....Also how do you compare the IAF doctrine with PAFs one ?

yup nutcases there too i agree

but they are still not the radicalised ones yet, but the way the politics in india are proceeding, they soon shall be

anyways I think you misunderstood my line, I mean PAF wont be able to take multi-pronged offenses, same with IAF or any other AF. In todays world its no more mere courage or skill that counts, but what wares and what software combined with is against you .... I guess all AFs if in such places wont have long time to last and you cant disagree with that...

About the IAF doctrine....

well I have been just told that you are PAF ..... am myself IA ..... I guess it needs no expansion as you have been studying the air doctrine drafted in 2007 and cold start doctrines.

 

[Firebird_80]

Firebird:- X-man is former PAF Pilot so he knows a lot more about PAF then you.

saad i am an infantryman by profession, and i know what PAF is for me in case of combat and I know about it as much as he, for I have to fight it. so far in blogs have not seen any professionalism here and lack of tactical or strategic thinking. high time jingoism and rhetoric is left and we come to real crux of issue

 

[SherdiL!]

hounrable BATMAN; sir
when i started this thread , many peopl's were laughing , that its really beyond reallity thing, but for now many of our commrads thinks that , it is possible.
what i guss , that its really immposible for PAF to match USAF +ALLIES on one side , & defend itself , from IAF on the other front, but its eqully crazy to underestimate PAF!
I think , PAF can bring real dammge to every one, some our senior commrads were right that B-52 can destroy many parts of pakistan, so i guss its willbe very good to target anyone , anywhere , whoever! gives any support to USAF+ALLIES+IAF , with our missiles!
with out matching USAF , with OUR PAF!
I am still confident , that PAF can also bring a lot of dammge to USAF in very frist hour, with PAF GOING ONLY AFTER FOR BIG BIRDS(B-52), & ATTACKING ALL THE AFGHAN AIR BASSES, by ground to ground missilles?

i think , by just looking , by just disscussing ones ablity! isnt simply fare enough!
"In case india use any third party than those BABUR's and GHAURI's should be tipped with strategic arsenal"

i really like to thanks a lot to you, of your bold & brave thinking !
unlike others , who are sacred of battle " which is being , brought on to us"

very well said mate i am ready to die for Pakistan in upcoming june we can do alot of damage if we see the situation is like this US have 300000thousand troops in Afganistan/Iraq men to men battle wouldnt be hard to fight i am really concern about PAF because US will rapidly sent the F-22s on my head and theres nobody to take care of them we will be fighting a long war and huge loss of human race on both sides but Israel will be the main command center because if we cut down the supplies it would really hurt US,on the other hand we have India ready to divide and perish Pakistan to stop him for doing that we need to create havoc in India and support "KHALISTAN" Free Sikhs.Hindus has rapidly killed alot of Christians,Sikhs,Muslims if we divide the country in 1 half it will be crucial for India.Iran might come in action with Pakistan needs to improve its releations with Iran and we should stop the work of the pipeline through Iran-Pakistan-Inda and change it to this Iran-Pakistan-China brings down the damage invite in all this Syria,Turkey,Russia n China.Russia will be the key role in all this improve releations with Russia means cruicial to India.Iran should be the bait in the middle for Israel/US and the growing tensions between US n Russia can be taken advantage of..and Saudi Arabia is going to be the key for our finanical problem.Saudi wants to see Pakistan a good state because thats the only power Muslims card have they wouldnt want to see it go down.

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

 

[Firebird_80]

Moderators please bear with me.

In 1984 an Indian Army officer saw the potential for "cold start" to military operations in sync with the plans to mechanise the Indian Army massively for large scale mechanised operations in deserts and plains on the western border. However at the time the idea was premature for Indian thinking and the same was shelved.

A re-apprisal of the same idea was undertaken in 2001-02 post Op Parakaram when it was found that the time to mobilise and get logistics in place was too long and the idea of "cold start" was finally adopted and necessary infrastructure for the same was created in subsequent years.

As an offshoot of the same, IAF redrew its operational plans and objectives were redefined in tune with the changed modus-operandi and directions.

The new IAF doctrine places heavy emphasis on establishment of capability to project power and dominate the airspace from South-East Asia to Gulf of Aden as and when required according to the political directives. It also laid heavy emplasis on round the clock missions and high tempo of sorties to actively achieve air-superiority and enforce it as also to support the rapdily advancing army in close ground support by precision strikes and use of advanced stand off weapons.

In terms of Pakistan, it means:

Establishment of Air Superiority within 48-72 hours of commencement of operations and enforcement of air denial to PAF

Support to the strike Corps for attainment of objectives.

Effective proactive Air Defence

Interdiction of any Ballastic Missile launched

Denial of Airspace to China or any other power which may try to interfere.



PAF has strength of about 540 Combat ACs comprising:

JF-17 : 10+ (china will not be inducting this AC in PLAAF so needs to be seen)

J-10 : about 40

F-16 A/b: 50

F-7: 230+

Mirage III/V: 150+

Nanchang A-5: 50

SAAB 2000 AWACS: 1

IL-78 Refueller: 2 (???)

Apart from F-16s,few Miarges with ROSE upgradation and J-10 (if they are being operated) the ramaining ACs are hardly worth mentioning as they are woefully outdated in terms of avionics and software upgradation as also RADARS and protective suites.

Against this IAF has about 700+ combat ACs

Mirage 2000: 60 (few upgraded)

Mig 29: 90+ (majority upgraded)

Su-30 MKI: 150+

Mig-21: 290+ (upgraded)

SPECAT Jaguar: 100+ (upgraded)

Mig 27: 60+

IL-78 MKI refuellers: 8+

A-50 AWACS: 2+ (???)


The majority of ACs in indian inventory are upgraded and are qualitatively and quantitatively superior. The added effect of almost 16 years of sanctions against PAF has seen its force preparedness and abilities take a severe beating.

 

[batmannow]

Moderators please bear with me.

In 1984 an Indian Army officer saw the potential for "cold start" to military operations in sync with the plans to mechanise the Indian Army massively for large scale mechanised operations in deserts and plains on the western border. However at the time the idea was premature for Indian thinking and the same was shelved.

A re-apprisal of the same idea was undertaken in 2001-02 post Op Parakaram when it was found that the time to mobilise and get logistics in place was too long and the idea of "cold start" was finally adopted and necessary infrastructure for the same was created in subsequent years.

As an offshoot of the same, IAF redrew its operational plans and objectives were redefined in tune with the changed modus-operandi and directions.

The new IAF doctrine places heavy emphasis on establishment of capability to project power and dominate the airspace from South-East Asia to Gulf of Aden as and when required according to the political directives. It also laid heavy emplasis on round the clock missions and high tempo of sorties to actively achieve air-superiority and enforce it as also to support the rapdily advancing army in close ground support by precision strikes and use of advanced stand off weapons.

In terms of Pakistan, it means:

Establishment of Air Superiority within 48-72 hours of commencement of operations and enforcement of air denial to PAF

Support to the strike Corps for attainment of objectives.

Effective proactive Air Defence

Interdiction of any Ballastic Missile launched

Denial of Airspace to China or any other power which may try to interfere.



PAF has strength of about 540 Combat ACs comprising:

JF-17 : 10+ (china will not be inducting this AC in PLAAF so needs to be seen)

J-10 : about 40

F-16 A/b: 50

F-7: 230+

Mirage III/V: 150+

Nanchang A-5: 50

SAAB 2000 AWACS: 1

IL-78 Refueller: 2 (???)

Apart from F-16s,few Miarges with ROSE upgradation and J-10 (if they are being operated) the ramaining ACs are hardly worth mentioning as they are woefully outdated in terms of avionics and software upgradation as also RADARS and protective suites.

Against this IAF has about 700+ combat ACs

Mirage 2000: 60 (few upgraded)

Mig 29: 90+ (majority upgraded)

Su-30 MKI: 150+

Mig-21: 290+ (upgraded)

SPECAT Jaguar: 100+ (upgraded)

Mig 27: 60+

IL-78 MKI refuellers: 8+

A-50 AWACS: 2+ (???)


The majority of ACs in indian inventory are upgraded and are qualitatively and quantitatively superior. The added effect of almost 16 years of sanctions against PAF has seen its force preparedness and abilities take a severe beating.

dear Firebird_80; sir
nice input but, i guss you forget the subject of thread, its not for any comparison between IAF & PAF, so plz come back to topic!
read the subject of thread & thn post.
thanks

 

[x_man]

.... I guess all AFs if in such places wont have long time to last and you cant disagree with that...

I don’t disagree about that and said the same earlier in my post 91..

..... traditionally PAFs modus operandi, her infrastructures (airfields, MOBs/FOBs), distribution of assets (aircraft / radars) and training is more oriented to take a threat from East only. Although PAF did deal with attacks from West in late 80s and 90s but those were far less in magnitude comparing with any future attack from (lets say) US and any other western airforce…

While PAF will give tough fight in the beginning but over a period of time the attrition, neutralising of her infrastructure and destruction of command centres will take a heavy toll on her operations and performance: no doubts about that...

PAFs doctrine has mostly been defensive with limited offensive. The ORBAT very clearly depicts that. In short PAF is not designed to take multi directional attacks and she will be in deep trouble if such an offensive is launched….

While one cannot predict the effort generated Vs response at this time, so too many speculations into this multiple attack scenario will bring many false hypothesis.

 

[batmannow]

I don’t disagree about that and said the same earlier in my post 91..



PAFs doctrine has mostly been defensive with limited offensive. The ORBAT very clearly depicts that. In short PAF is not designed to take multi directional attacks and she will be in deep trouble if such an offensive is launched….

While one cannot predict the effort generated Vs response at this time, so too many speculations into this multiple attack scenario will bring many false hypothesis.

x_man;sir
, 'so too many speculations into this multiple attack scenario will bring many false hypothesis."
but , some surly bring right ones too!

 

[x_man]

Establishment of Air Superiority within 48-72 hours of commencement of operations and enforcement of air denial to PAF

The text book definition of Air Superiority is ‘The degree of dominance in the air battle of one force over another which permits the conduct of operations by the former and its related land, sea, and air forces at a given time and place without prohibitive interference by the opposing force’. …Translation: One force can carryout all operations (time and space) without any résistance from the other….

As we have seen in past that IAF never achieved complete air superiority either in 65 or 71 despite their ORBAT was built around this doctrine…Despite heavily outnumbered and suffering many losses, PAF still didn’t give IAF a free hand to operate and hence denied the Air Superiority till end of the two wars…

I have my doubts that in any future Indo-Pak war, IAF will achieve an Air Sup in 48 to 72 hours….IMO this figure is quite overstated based on the past experiences..

PAF has strength of about 540 Combat ACs comprising:

The numbers are bit inflated. Firstly, we don’t have J-10 right now…F-7s and A-5s are also less in numbers…A rough figure of 350 fighter aircrafts is somewhat true at the moment…

P.S: Batmannow , sorry for the thread drift that has already gone in many directions…I will stick to the topic now..