m15t3r7
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you know the number one rule thought in the military academy
RULE # 1 "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY"
What if Indian "surgical strikes" fail?
- Thread starter tamir
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you know the number one rule thought in the military academy
RULE # 1 "NEVER UNDERESTIMATE YOUR ENEMY"
m15t3r7
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My question is that if the Indian Air Force is invincible how come they havent carried out surgical strikes against Pakistan. They very well know what the capabilities of Pakistan Armed Forces are and that is why the Indian leaders toned down there statments when Pakistan flexed its muscle. And please dont give me the bull sh** that India does not wants a war and they are a peacefull nation. They want to co exist with Pakistan peacefully, bull sh**. Any surgical strikes from IAF will be thawrted by PAF and IAF is perfectly aware of it.
THANK YOU SIR NICELY PUT
Kharian_Beast
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Another armchair general
. PAF is very well indeed endowed with BVR capability, we just don't advertise our capabilities needlessly like the Indians. If PAF was not BVR capable, where is the IAF? Last time I heard they were running away with dum between the legs.A couple of things I mentioned when starting the thread. Please stay on topic and avoid immature insults. Admins, thank you for helping keep the discussion relevant.
Surgical strikes would be limited to the "terrorists camps" in question. Hence they are called "surgical strikes". Any attack on Pakistani positions such airbases, SAM sites, etc. means nothing less than declaration of war.
Someone also mentioned 60 IAF for the mission. Again having supposedly 60 IAF aircraft in Pak airspace means nothing less than full war.
So back to my point..... easier said than done. My logic says can't be done under the "surgical strike" option unless people are ready for full fledge war.
Again.... keep the discussion realistic and lets not pull out fantasy scenarios.
Surgical strikes would be limited to the "terrorists camps" in question. Hence they are called "surgical strikes". Any attack on Pakistani positions such airbases, SAM sites, etc. means nothing less than declaration of war.
Someone also mentioned 60 IAF for the mission. Again having supposedly 60 IAF aircraft in Pak airspace means nothing less than full war.
So back to my point..... easier said than done. My logic says can't be done under the "surgical strike" option unless people are ready for full fledge war.
Again.... keep the discussion realistic and lets not pull out fantasy scenarios.
extinct
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Scenario # 1:
If IAF strikes and all or majority intruders (possible 4~6 planes at most, remember its a surgical strike scenario) are downed one way or the other and without achieving the objectives, this would be handled in a Political and Diplomatic environment.
On Pakistan side, no loss on the ground and instant humiliation of IAF. PA and PAF will declare victory (defensive victory) and India will be on the defensive for a failing strike, US will do damage control. Pakistan will humiliate India further diplomatically.
Scenario # 2:
If IAF strikes successfully (Isreal vs. Iraq style) and causes damage on the ground with minimal or no loss by IAF then PAF and PA will have egg on their face and will be pissed big time. Politcos in office will try to downplay the thing fearing for their own skin and power. US/West will try to tighten screws on Pakistan not to retaliate (Isreal vs. Syria recent strike style).
Scenario # 2.1:
Based on the history, mistrust b/w politicos and military will come into open again, a coup could ensue. And a retaliation might or might not follow as forces will be bogged down to quell the decent from inside. ISI might get "clear" orders with urgency and this time "old friendships of nafarious kind" will be rekindled...
Scenario # 2.2:
Military will force the politicos to pull the line, override the US/West and carry out their own "surgical" strikes. In an offensive stance and with the enemy waiting this could get "complicated" for PAF and GoI will use this as an opportunity to retaliate full conventional force. The MAD doctrine could ensue as soon as Pakistan feels cornered "conventionally".
Kharian_Beast
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Last edited by a moderator:
Scenario # 1:
If IAF strikes and all or majority intruders (possible 4~6 planes at most, remember its a surgical strike scenario) are downed one way or the other and without achieving the objectives, this would be handled in a Political and Diplomatic environment.
On Pakistan side, no loss on the ground and instant humiliation of IAF. PA and PAF will declare victory (defensive victory) and India will be on the defensive for a failing strike, US will do damage control. Pakistan will humiliate India further diplomatically.
Scenario # 2:
If IAF strikes successfully (Isreal vs. Iraq style) and causes damage on the ground with minimal or no loss by IAF then PAF and PA will have egg on their face and will be pissed big time. Politcos in office will try to downplay the thing fearing for their own skin and power. US/West will try to tighten screws on Pakistan not to retaliate (Isreal vs. Syria recent strike style).
Scenario # 2.1:
Based on the history, mistrust b/w politicos and military will come into open again, a coup could ensue. And a retaliation might or might not follow as forces will be bogged down to quell the decent from inside. ISI might get "clear" orders with urgency and this time "old friendships of nafarious kind" will be rekindled...
Scenario # 2.2:
Military will force the politicos to pull the line, override the US/West and carry out their own "surgical" strikes. In an offensive stance and with the enemy waiting this could get "complicated" for PAF and GoI will use this as an opportunity to retaliate full conventional force. The MAD doctrine could ensue as soon as Pakistan feels cornered "conventionally".
All of your assumptions are based on the logic that post Indian strikes (successful or not successful is not the issue here) some internal discourse would ensue between the government and the military. Well sir, we are way past that discussion as it has already happened. GoP in a unified manner has already made its intentions known to Mullen and team that come what may, Pakistan will hit back. We will not wait for an analysis or Bomb Damage Analysis by the IAF to say ok now its time for us to respond.
If IAF is coming across, Pakistan is responding. There are no ifs and buts about that. That is what the Pakistani nation expects and that is what the Pakistani government and armed forces will do. What happens beyond that is a concern that Indian government and planners should have in mind before they initiate something along the lines of a military action.
extinct
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I hope we don't wait and I really hope that IAF if it attempts anything funny does not go back on its on. Let me clarify also that by damage I meant us analyzing the state of the attack and not them declaring objectives achieved.
I truly wish that what you say is exactly what happens. Our history is replete with these politicos doing what they deem neccessary for their skin. The topic was what can happen if the strike fails and what I put down is my pragmatic analysis based on recent history (whatever its worth) minus my emotions on the topic.
God bless Pakistan.
XYON
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Another armchair general
Mr. EL NINO,
Your definition of a SURGICAL STRIKE is all screwed up!!
The scenario you have mention relates to more of an all-out battle rather than a surgical strike.
A surgical strike by air would encompass low flying or very high flying 3 or 4 IAF aircraft (to avoid radar) at high speeds into Pakistan. Secondly, the intended targets has to be lazed by special forces forward observers so that the guide bombs can strike the target with pin point precision with little or no collateral damage. The USAF has almost perfected the surgical strike concept in Iraq and Afghanistan. Israeli's F-15 attack on the Iraq nuclear complex in the 80's was a classic surgical strike. The shock and awe campaign in Baghdad of the second Iraq war was also surgical strike. Your armed forces at this stage are not capable of carrying out surgical strikes inside Pakistan as it requires complexed planning and military resources.
Secondly, this crap about PAF having outdated planes is also not valid. Yes the F-7P platform is old, but it still is a very useful platform to take out major installations at the Indian side and to counter intruding aircraft into Pakistan territory. Its replacement, JF-17 is being prepped as we speak. The Indian program of getting the MCA is still that just a program!! And I confirm that PAF indeed has BVR's which can be deployed in case of war.
xishan786
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Hmm enough of techno jargoon, I would like indians to comment on this,
lets explore another aftermath of surgical strikes, fail or success, now for a minute if we belive indian version of Mumbai attack, well boys, you cant handle 10 of those with full plathetora of your SOF what if whole brigade in unleashed upon you, and if this time they are the trainers themselves? as claimed by Indian Govt, compounded with suicide bombors all targeted toward india, things would be very rosy, wont they?
Do any one honestly think these 'non state actors' would just sit down and see PAF and IAF rattle their sabers in the sky? As of today there are clear indcations that indians were informed of this in advance and still they failed, so how they plan such attacks on 5000 places? and whole Taliban & Co allowed to go after India?(they are more then willing to go) Dont take them lighlty if Pak, nato and Americans cant subdue them whats the indian plan?
Pakistan has a very complex scenario right now fighting on many fronts but belive within moments this whole sceanrio can be turned into simlpistic destruction of any non muslm enemy.
Surgical strikes fail or succeed they would act as force mutlipliers for Taliban Lasker Taiba and other non state actors.
I think india should behave and realise the ground realities by growing in economy wont make her invincible or un hurtabe. Though Impossible but even if they wipe out the whole formal defence on every mile they will find a new battle ground every day, and warriors of home would be thoese who loves death more then life.
So Indians should behave and co operate with Pakistan, dont play in hands of your hardlines, cause if our hardliners, which are plently, if came in action then just remeber people here havent yet forgotton the pre 1857 glory.
Learn to be rational and civilised.
lets explore another aftermath of surgical strikes, fail or success, now for a minute if we belive indian version of Mumbai attack, well boys, you cant handle 10 of those with full plathetora of your SOF what if whole brigade in unleashed upon you, and if this time they are the trainers themselves? as claimed by Indian Govt, compounded with suicide bombors all targeted toward india, things would be very rosy, wont they?
Do any one honestly think these 'non state actors' would just sit down and see PAF and IAF rattle their sabers in the sky? As of today there are clear indcations that indians were informed of this in advance and still they failed, so how they plan such attacks on 5000 places? and whole Taliban & Co allowed to go after India?(they are more then willing to go) Dont take them lighlty if Pak, nato and Americans cant subdue them whats the indian plan?
Pakistan has a very complex scenario right now fighting on many fronts but belive within moments this whole sceanrio can be turned into simlpistic destruction of any non muslm enemy.
Surgical strikes fail or succeed they would act as force mutlipliers for Taliban Lasker Taiba and other non state actors.
I think india should behave and realise the ground realities by growing in economy wont make her invincible or un hurtabe. Though Impossible but even if they wipe out the whole formal defence on every mile they will find a new battle ground every day, and warriors of home would be thoese who loves death more then life.
So Indians should behave and co operate with Pakistan, dont play in hands of your hardlines, cause if our hardliners, which are plently, if came in action then just remeber people here havent yet forgotton the pre 1857 glory.
Learn to be rational and civilised.
The Indian public overwhelming believes that the Indian Forces could easily overpower their Pakistani counterparts. The Govt of India knows the facts and limitations. It's the Indian Public that needs to digest the ground realities.
In each topic something comes up about how superior the SU-30 is and so on. Why wasn't the superior and invincible IAF used to "punish" Pakistan? I guess your fighters are only for show and tell. Striking Pakistan is not that simple and easy is it??
I hold the Indian media responsible for misleading their public. They sensationalize each and everything. They pretty much make a documentary on each fallen soldier. I respect the fact that the servicemen paid the ultimate price for their country.... but its their job.
Look at the casualties on the Pakistani side fighting in FATA. We don't see features and documentaries on them..... on second thoughts.... if our attention hungry media could do manage it, they would do it in a heartbeat as well. It is kept professional by the Pakistan Armed Forces.
So on a larger scale conflict.... the Indian media or public will not be able to handle the higher number of casualties guaranteed.
When I started this thread... I was optimistic that hostilities would not escalate but over the last few weeks I have been assured once again that thanks to the Almighty Allah.... the Guardians of our nation the Pakistan Armed Forces are on top of things. So personally I salute all our service men and women.
In each topic something comes up about how superior the SU-30 is and so on. Why wasn't the superior and invincible IAF used to "punish" Pakistan? I guess your fighters are only for show and tell. Striking Pakistan is not that simple and easy is it??
I hold the Indian media responsible for misleading their public. They sensationalize each and everything. They pretty much make a documentary on each fallen soldier. I respect the fact that the servicemen paid the ultimate price for their country.... but its their job.
Look at the casualties on the Pakistani side fighting in FATA. We don't see features and documentaries on them..... on second thoughts.... if our attention hungry media could do manage it, they would do it in a heartbeat as well. It is kept professional by the Pakistan Armed Forces.
So on a larger scale conflict.... the Indian media or public will not be able to handle the higher number of casualties guaranteed.
When I started this thread... I was optimistic that hostilities would not escalate but over the last few weeks I have been assured once again that thanks to the Almighty Allah.... the Guardians of our nation the Pakistan Armed Forces are on top of things. So personally I salute all our service men and women.
Cheetah786
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BRAHMOS isnt a cruise missile its a supersonic missile just to clear that out now you guys continue with discussion.
i'm tired of every1 saying IAF is scared of paf and paf has hidden capabilities blah blah blah
reason IAF doesn't atk pakistan is b.c. u have nukes and India doesn't have ABM system in place yet.
Also India doesn't want to seem to agressive to the world, remember Kargil? pakistan was the agressor and the world blamed it on them? so if there is a war and it turns nuclear, not only do India and pakistan suffer the entire world suffers from fallout and blames India.
Its too complex of a scenario.
No IAF isn't scared of paf. If any1 knows their history, than remember in Kargil, paf didn't even bother with the IAF? IAF had COMPLETE air dominance, and even though paf has bvr, its limited and is that cheap chinese bvr and 40 km French bvr, IAF has some of the best bvr in the world(Derby, Python, R-series from Russia).
also 100 MKI, 120 Mig 29 and M2k's, 120 Jaguars(upgraded), and 300 upgraded Mig 21s and Mig 27s are more than a match for 36 F-16s, 8 jf-17s, 400 mirage III, IV, and Mirage Rose.
and u say paf hides their capabilities? India has 10x defense budget, what makes u think they wont hide theirs either? for example the ABM test was highly secret, and all that money the MOD hasn't been using, what makes u think it isn't used on other "secret" things?
with 3 billion dollar defense budget, u cant really do much.
and by 2020, ur af will have 250 thunders, 40 j-10s, and 50 F-16s.
facing
230 MKI, 200 MRCA, 200 LCA, 70 Mig-29, 50 M2K's, 120 Jaguars, and 100 T-50s(Gen 5)
and 50 LCA, and 50 Mig-29k from the IN
OVERKILL
and moderaters have been deleting my posts for a while, deleting my posts wont change anything, it just proves I'm right since you dont have anything to defend urselves. so to the moderaters let everyone see the TRUTH and dont call me a troll for saying the TRUTH.
reason IAF doesn't atk pakistan is b.c. u have nukes and India doesn't have ABM system in place yet.
Also India doesn't want to seem to agressive to the world, remember Kargil? pakistan was the agressor and the world blamed it on them? so if there is a war and it turns nuclear, not only do India and pakistan suffer the entire world suffers from fallout and blames India.
Its too complex of a scenario.
No IAF isn't scared of paf. If any1 knows their history, than remember in Kargil, paf didn't even bother with the IAF? IAF had COMPLETE air dominance, and even though paf has bvr, its limited and is that cheap chinese bvr and 40 km French bvr, IAF has some of the best bvr in the world(Derby, Python, R-series from Russia).
also 100 MKI, 120 Mig 29 and M2k's, 120 Jaguars(upgraded), and 300 upgraded Mig 21s and Mig 27s are more than a match for 36 F-16s, 8 jf-17s, 400 mirage III, IV, and Mirage Rose.
and u say paf hides their capabilities? India has 10x defense budget, what makes u think they wont hide theirs either? for example the ABM test was highly secret, and all that money the MOD hasn't been using, what makes u think it isn't used on other "secret" things?
with 3 billion dollar defense budget, u cant really do much.
and by 2020, ur af will have 250 thunders, 40 j-10s, and 50 F-16s.
facing
230 MKI, 200 MRCA, 200 LCA, 70 Mig-29, 50 M2K's, 120 Jaguars, and 100 T-50s(Gen 5)
and 50 LCA, and 50 Mig-29k from the IN
OVERKILL
and moderaters have been deleting my posts for a while, deleting my posts wont change anything, it just proves I'm right since you dont have anything to defend urselves. so to the moderaters let everyone see the TRUTH and dont call me a troll for saying the TRUTH.
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