what does the Pak armed forces realiticially need to counter india conventially

[Humble Analyst]

Well how would these happen with only 200K people paying their taxes?

@Replies: Subcontinent main bohat farigh log bethay huay hain

In case you missed corruption includes tax corruption as well.

Right you are. The Army shall remain blameless in all of this sad saga. Of course.

At least they tried to do something which the civilian corrupt lazy retard leaders should have done in the first place.

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

@Ifteqar Aisan Welcome to the forum. Very refreshing to see this quality of narrative.

Thanks. Hope to be a regular contributor to discussions. Although I do suffer from attention deficit at times.

@Joe Shearer any dumb@ss Pakistan bashing post deserves a positive, doesn't it?

Remember last six or seven years? It is only now that our army cheif has shown verbal aggressiveness, in the past, Kiyani did not even bother to respond verbally to Indian war hysteria. Kindly take a look at war-mongers who hold power in India as well.


@WebMaster @Horus I demand an ip check. Even if he is a Pakistani, he belongs to a rare delusional breed.

You may be right. I have been hearing voices in my head for some time now.

What a traitor you turned out to be . When this thought of yours prevails with many officials in Pakistan establishment then Good times ahead for Pakistan for sure and prosperity and dignity of ur people. Am saying it for very long time on here for many years now. All time am confronted with likes of Agnostic Muslim and others.

Sometimes I feel that Peace is no where near in Pakistan Radar at all. Moves are been made so eneimity with India exist so people so blindly fall in line with out questioning Top brace who failed terribly at every level.

Hope Kashmir is resolved peacefully. Pakistan should come forward and hand over P O K to India as per 1947 agreement. And focus on becoming a economic super power rather than fragile state with loose nuclear weapons. One small mistakes may change a nation's history.

Look, it's not that I am a crowd of one on most issues. Many people on this forum, just like my fellow Pakistanis I know in real life, will agree with me on quite a few things. Most of the Pakistanis in my friend circle are secular liberals/progressives who want to take Pakistan forward as a society and have nothing in common with the rabid image portrayed in India/elsewhere. Even in PDF you must have noticed that except on the India question, most of them are easy to deal with. It is a strange thing, nationalist chauvinism. It makes you hate those who would have been your natural allies and run into the arms of your mortal enemy. Pakistanis have everything in common with Indians and nothing in common with the "all weather friends" they have enlisted in their cause. But who will tell that to those blinded by hate.

But isn't it the same in India? Are there not plenty of Indian secular liberals who are just irrationally unaccommodating on just that one issue - Pakistan?

 

[VCheng]

Sunnis are not violence provocateurs.

Right you are again!

 

[nForce]

@Ifteqar Aisan Who or what changed your flag ?

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

Or Asima Jehangir type....The one who paid homage to Shiv Sena and claimed to be a secular at the same time (hypocrisy at it's best). He seems to ignore the outrageous Pakistan-centric policies of India and continuous Indian support to terrorists/seperatists in Pakistan since 1971. The likes of him want to see Pakistan as a client state of India or US but what they don't realize is that Pakistan is not answerable to India and that Pakistan reserves the right to protect it's national interests one way or the other. Had his kind ever had the power in Pakistan, they would have pimped out the country.
And the more surprising bit is the abuse of rating system by an Indian professional.

Thanks a lot for improving my credibility. Agnostic here was really defaming me by calling me Adnan Sami. By comparing me to Asma Jahangir, you have made my day. She is the conscience keeper of Pakistan. Without her, the world simply would not have been aware of how discriminatory our laws are towards women and children. Also, she is a brave woman. If you and I could be half as brave as her, we would have achieved something in our lives.

@Ifteqar Aisan Who or what changed your flag ?

I think someone hacked into my account and did it. Childish malevolence, take no heed. If, you are from this part of the world and start getting worked up at everything then you have had it. I will try to change it back though, just for the sake of continuity.

 

[nForce]

I think someone hacked into my account and did it. Childish malevolence, take no heed. If, you are from this part of the world and start getting worked up at everything then you have had it. I will try to change it back though, just for the sake of continuity.

Nobody hacked. Most probably one of the moderators did that for you. You are bad for business.

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

Nobody hacked. Most probably one of the moderators did that for you. You are bad for business.

But then that is wrong, isn't it? What is the point that they are trying to prove? Good for us that PDF mods are not running Pakistan, else most of the honest people would be handed Indian passports (forged, of course).

 

[Humble Analyst]

Right you are again!

Thank you for agreeing(even sarcastically), stereotype statements will only invite more problems so calling all Sunnis or Shias a bad name is not the solution, much as you may want to.

 

[nForce]

But then that is wrong, isn't it? What is the point that they are trying to prove? Good for us that PDF mods are not running Pakistan, else most of the honest people would be handed Indian passports (forged, of course).

I have not seen much of your posts, but I think those were in the line that does adhere to the 'typical Pakistani' type.
People come to this forum because of conflicting interests, otherwise they all will be in Facebook! So, if you take that conflict out of the picture, then there is no selling point! That's why I said, you are bad for business

You might want to take it up with a moderator to change your flag.

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

You're essentially making the same point I did, that power is not going to be willingly given up. I argued in my previous post that in order for the civilian government to take back power and control it needs public support and public support for the civilian government will not occur until the government starts delivering on governance.

International pressure behind the scenes on the Indian government to put a lid on its inflammatory rhetoric.

Pakistan's threats to use nuclear weapons as a defensive response to Indian military aggression threatening her survival have almost always been in the context of a response to inflammatory rhetoric from India.


Another lie - there is no credible evidence suggesting the ISI engineered the Mumbai attacks. And why wouldn't Pakistan deny a fabricated allegation and threaten the use of nuclear weapons as a defensive response to threats of armed aggression against her? So yes, given that the only thing you can come with are unsubstantiated allegations and conspiracy theories about the 'ISI engineering the Mumbai attacks', yes, I suppose we are well disposed and justified in responding to threats of Indian military aggression with threats of nuclear weapons as a means of deterrence.

The fact is that the publicly available statements and attitudes displayed by Indian politicians, Indian media and commentators on various platforms clearly point to the Indian side displaying significantly more implacable and irrational hatred towards Pakistan. Outside of deluded Pakistani fanboys on fora such as these and extremists, the level of 'implacable' hate and poison displayed by India is unmatched in Pakistan.

First of all, legally HS and Lakhvi are not 'wanted criminals' in Pakistan, given the lack of any conviction in a Pakistani court. Second, the actual evidence (in terms of the ability of these individuals to get elected in large numbers) does not support your claim of 'their words carry a lot of weight', and there is certainly no evidence to suggest that these individuals are looked upon as 'model citizens' by a vast majority of Pakistanis. So let's stop with the deluded and unsubstantiated allegations you're pulling out of the irrationally hateful Indian playbook.

Actually its more a case of only one party, Pakistan, willing to involve a neutral UN mandated party to investigate the ceasefire violations and monitor the LoC. Only the party with nothing to hide would take those steps, and it certainly isn't India

Nonsense - Pakistan has no motive or benefit currently to initiate ceasefire violations or keep the LoC 'hot'. Given Pakistan's massive military and para-military deployments in FATA, Balochistan and Karachi, there is absolutely no reason for Pakistan to want to inflame tensions along the LoC at this point in time. The only party that benefits from these violations is India, especially given the public displays of a hate-mongering mindset displayed by India's leadership and media.


Adnan Sami Khan type (even if we assume he's Pakistani) - unsubstantiated, irrational and conspiracy theory laden Pakistan bashing (his comments are nothing but a regurgitation of most nonsensical allegations already spewed by Indian commentators and apologists) would only be considered 'honest, insightful and refreshing' by the irrational hate-mongering Indian crowd that buys into the poisonous rubbish spewed by their media and government with equal vigor.

Reinventing the wheel is not required. ISI runs Hafeez Saeed and LeT. That is not exactly news to anyone. The US, UK, Australia, EU, Russia, and our neighbourhood IKEA store have all banned LeT as a terrorist organization, based specifically on the intel on LeT involvement in Mumbai attack. You are a denier of facts. Now go lodge your protest to all these governments as to why they have banned LeT if that is so.

As for not convicting Saeed, Lakhvi and Co., it would be difficult to convict them of crimes that the government itself sponsors. The investigating agencies are controlled by the same government that sponsors their activities. It is an outrage to shield those who plotted the murder of hundreds, but then, everything is fair in hate, I guess.

About ceasefire violations, Pakistan wants to internationalize the issue, India doesn't. It runs counter to all that is considered sane and reasonable in this world to argue that the one who wants to supress something would provoke a situation defeating that very purpose. Everyone understands that, except you.

As for your gratuitous commentary on my ignorance, mental state, etc., you are welcome. Let me make an observation about your mental state - what kind of jobless person who claims to live in America would be able to churn out an average of 50 posts a day over 8 years. I think you are one of those lonely, maladjusted people who could never really come to grips with your changed surroundings. You have no friends, no social circle, and so you hold on to the only thing that makes you feel relevant in the world, under the guise of patriotic fervour.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I am sorry, that is wrong.

I am hesitant to use stronger words because of my enormous personal respect for you. For that reason, too, I shall limit myself to just these three sentences.

Why is a resort to 'stronger words' the only option, aside from a one line disagreement?

I've explained my interpretation of the UNSC resolution in a debate with another poster claiming to be Pakistani, on the following thread:

Pakistan Using Heavy Shells - a First Since Ceasefire Agreement: Sources | Page 11

Reinventing the wheel is not required. ISI runs Hafeez Saeed and LeT. That is not exactly news to anyone. The US, UK, Australia, EU, Russia, and our neighbourhood IKEA store have all banned LeT as a terrorist organization, based specifically on the intel on LeT involvement in Mumbai attack. You are a denier of facts. Now go lodge your protest to all these governments as to why they have banned LeT if that is so.

I don't really care if these organizations ban the LeT - the LeT is banned in Pakistan as well. Past support for the LeT (insurgency in Kashmir)does not equate support or knowledge of their Mumbai attack plan, so while I completely agree that Pakistan bears responsibility in ensuring that it degrades the capabilities of the LeT as much as possible after the Mumbai attacks, the Pakistani State is not complicit in the attacks.

As for not convicting Saeed, Lakhvi and Co., it would be difficult to convict them of crimes that the government itself sponsors. The investigating agencies are controlled by the same government that sponsors their activities. It is an outrage to shield those who plotted the murder of hundreds, but then, everything is fair in hate, I guess.

There is almost no credible evidence implicating HS in the Mumbai attacks, and the evidence against Lakhvi boils down to the alleged voice samples India has, and Lakhvi's legal team argued against using those.

About ceasefire violations, Pakistan wants to internationalize the issue, India doesn't. It runs counter to all that is considered sane and reasonable in this world to argue that the one who wants to supress something would provoke a situation defeating that very purpose. Everyone understands that, except you.

This is a ridiculous argument because the violence on the LoC would not have been at the low levels it was prior to Modi taking power had the justification behind ceasefire violations been 'internationalizing the Kashmir Dispute'. The ceasefire violations largely coincided with Modi and the BJP taking power in India and Pakistan increasing her military deployments in FATA, Balochistan and Karachi. No rational analysis of the internal dynamics playing out in Pakistan and India points to Pakistan having a motive for escalation on the LoC.

As for your gratuitous commentary on my ignorance, mental state, etc., you are welcome. Let me make an observation about your mental state - what kind of jobless person who claims to live in America would be able to churn out an average of 50 posts a day over 8 years. I think you are one of those lonely, maladjusted people who could never really come to grips with your changed surroundings. You have no friends, no social circle, and so you hold on to the only thing that makes you feel relevant in the world, under the guise of patriotic fervour.

Yep - I'm totally maladjusted, introverted, without friends, without a social circle and totally irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that your arguments are a load of rubbish driven by an irrational anti-Pakistan hatred.

 

[VCheng]

Thank you for agreeing(even sarcastically), stereotype statements will only invite more problems so calling all Sunnis or Shias a bad name is not the solution, much as you may want to.

Denial is not a solution either, please do keep that in mind. For Sunnis or Shias, or even the Army.

 

[Mike_Brando]

Hi,

Okay --- so what---. When we want to come and get you---we will. That is the bottom line.

Hi,
So,how are you planning to do so,by riding flying pigs all the way to New Delhi with big shiny swords in your hands!!Wake up and smell the coffee,it's 2015 already and you still don't have the Kashmir valley with you let alone the entire J&K!!

 

[Spectre]

There is almost no credible evidence implicating HS in the Mumbai attacks

I see you have used the word almost. Just wanted to clarify if the intent was to cover all bases or there is indeed some credible evidence implicating Saeed. If that is the case then any credible evidence would suffice.

The law does not take quantity but quality of evidence into consideration. Quantity is the just the padding.

@Joe Shearer or anyother lawyers can perhaps back me up on this as I have just a passing acquaintance with criminal law.

 

[Ifteqar Aisan]

Why is a resort to 'stronger words' the only option, aside from a one line disagreement?

I've explained my interpretation of the UNSC resolution in a debate with another poster claiming to be Pakistani, on the following thread:

Pakistan Using Heavy Shells - a First Since Ceasefire Agreement: Sources | Page 11


I don't really care if these organizations ban the LeT - the LeT is banned in Pakistan as well. Past support for the LeT (insurgency in Kashmir)does not equate support or knowledge of their Mumbai attack plan, so while I completely agree that Pakistan bears responsibility in ensuring that it degrades the capabilities of the LeT as much as possible after the Mumbai attacks, the Pakistani State is not complicit in the attacks.

There is almost no credible evidence implicating HS in the Mumbai attacks, and the evidence against Lakhvi boils down to the alleged voice samples India has, and Lakhvi's legal team argued against using those.

This is a ridiculous argument because the violence on the LoC would not have been at the low levels it was prior to Modi taking power had the justification behind ceasefire violations been 'internationalizing the Kashmir Dispute'. The ceasefire violations largely coincided with Modi and the BJP taking power in India and Pakistan increasing her military deployments in FATA, Balochistan and Karachi. No rational analysis of the internal dynamics playing out in Pakistan and India points to Pakistan having a motive for escalation on the LoC.

Yep - I'm totally maladjusted, introverted, without friends, without a social circle and totally irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that your arguments are a load of rubbish driven by an irrational anti-Pakistan hatred.

Before the freezing of LeT assets in Pakistan, the Junior Sharif government tipped them off and all the money from these bank accounts was removed. The freeze on bank accounts yielded nothing. The JuD continued its stellar work and insists it will do so despite the recent ban. And these organizations have not been banned for their role in Kashmir - American and British citizens died in the Mumbai attack, resulting in the ban.

As for their being no credible evidence against Hafiz Saeed, if you exclude the evidence provided by the country where he carried out his attack, and instead run your own internal prosecution based on limited resources and motivated considerations, no doubt little credible evidence will emerge.

About the ceasefire violations, we have both stated our version. you claim Indian ceasefire violations are unprovoked, but have no proof apart from your own assertion and the proof that Pakistan is asking for UN intervention. I say, that Pakistan's policy of involving UNMOGIP is a dead giveaway as to who has the motive to violate the ceasefire. No point arguing any further.