What does Pakistan bring to the table on Kashmir, Siachen?

[livingdead]

Actually it doesn't. The whole thing is interrelated. You see you are asking for a trade, where as there is none in this case because Kashmir does not belong to India, though India has control over it, but then again having control doesn't make it yours and hence my point.
And i have answered OP's question in my initial post.

I will take it as an indirect vote for 'maintaining the status quo'. thanks.

 

[IceCold]

The point here is not what Pakistan's wishes are but what might it bring to the table in any discussion. Pakistan can hope India will simply give up & go but that's hardly realistic. India won't be going anywhere, no matter how much Pakistanis may wish otherwise. The absolute absence of a clear Pakistani perspective on what they can realistically achieve, either on Siachen or In Kashmir generally is what makes any debate flounder. You have to be clear in what India will get from any concession, peace is not just beneficial to India alone. If status quo has to be changed, what exactly can it be changed to & why should India agree to any such change.

Because you have a responsibility to do and because you admitted and promised as per the UN resolutions, to give the people of Kashmir their fundamental right of self determination. Forget Pakistan just honour what you promised in the 1st place.

Pakistan's perspective is very clear on this, we are not asking for you to handed over to us, we are simply asking what you promised in the 1st place, give the people of Kashmir their right.

I will take it as an indirect vote for 'maintaining the status quo'. thanks.

That is sadly the choice India has made up till now and frankly and honestly speaking, i don't see that choice being changed any time in the near future which will only bring us closer to the inevitable.

 

[Bang Galore]

Because you have a responsibility to do and because you admitted and promised as per the UN resolutions, to give the people of Kashmir their fundamental right of self determination. Forget Pakistan just honour what you promised in the 1st place.

Pakistan's perspective is very clear on this, we are not asking for you to handed over to us, we are simply asking what you promised in the 1st place, give the people of Kashmir their right.

If we forget Pakistan, then it would be between India & Kashmir. Shouldn't be your concern, you are hardly a neutral voice in the matter.

Pipe dreams are plenty, everyone can have one. We are talking more realistic options alone.

 

[livingdead]

Because you have a responsibility to do and because you admitted and promised as per the UN resolutions, to give the people of Kashmir their fundamental right of self determination. Forget Pakistan just honour what you promised in the 1st place.

Pakistan's perspective is very clear on this, we are not asking for you to handed over to us, we are simply asking what you promised in the 1st place, give the people of Kashmir their right.



That is sadly the choice India has made up till now and frankly and honestly speaking, i don't see that choice being changed any time in the near future which will only bring us closer to the inevitable.

I think you will agree that we decide our fate and make our own choices, and you do your own.
This thread clearly shows Indians will not really get anything substantial in the bargain, which is why we should maintain status quo inspite of a threat of a nuke MAD scenario.
Words like peace has no meaning, its not tangible, and we will give you peace as well, if you want it in return.

As we will be losing resources, my personal opinion is we should get resources to compensate it. Like a piece of punjab or sindh.

 

[Jade]

We are not holding a gun to anyone's head but the nuke thing is a reality. We Pakistani's never doubt India's resolve and naturally that means if nukes does go off, billions will die on both sides.......my whole point was at what cost........Kashmir?

Kashmir is neither yours nor ours, it belongs to the people of Kashmir. The land is disputed and needs a resolution, a resolution that is acceptable to all parties and not just India. You guys make it sound as if we are asking for an Indian territory, we are not however if no progress is made, eventually hot heads from both sides (Modi for example in India's case) can and will take matters into their own heads which could result into catastrophic tragedy.

You may have put it differently, but the crux of your post was...solve Kashmir or else face nukes. Anyway, why will nukes go off? India has much more to loose in nuke war, hence India will be not the one to start. That leaves Pakistan in question.

As regarding Kashmir.... for a Pakistani, Kashmir belongs to neither(hence a dispute) but according to Indian constitution the whole of Kashmir including the occupied Kashmir belongs to India, hence our stakes are much higher in Kashmir then yours. We are fighting for something that is ours, while your are not.

Anyway, as you said, if Kashmir doesn't belong to Pakistan then why fight for Kashmir? Why risk your country's future for something that is not yours?

 

[jaibi]

That is a very good question but to answer it I must ask for some reason herer. Let's look at how we think it should go: Pakistan asks something, Indian asks something, if these demands are acceptable there is progress. That however has not worked, for various reasons. I believe if we come to the table and not leave unless we have come up to a deal would be much more benefitial.

@notorious_eagle @RescueRanger @jaibi @Aeronaut

The question - Why should India do what you want us to do. What benefit do we get?

Is that benefit big enough/commensurate with what you want us to give up.

 

[livingdead]

That is a very good question but to answer it I must ask for some reason herer. Let's look at how we think it should go: Pakistan asks something, Indian asks something, if these demands are acceptable there is progress. That however has not worked, for various reasons. I believe if we come to the table and not leave unless we have come up to a deal would be much more benefitial.

dont you think our foreign ministers ( and other people involved in dialogue) carry unnecessary burden of our expectation when we dont know what is on the table?
This way, talks are bound to fail, and we say we cant agree on things and blame poor chaps.

 

[jaibi]

Mate, maybe because I've done this in couples and families and I have seen it work I assume other people know how it works. I shall elaborate some.

OK, now, if things are already on the table and we're calling for a compromise then each side actually wants to have it's own agenda given preference because it sees the other side through its lens rather than theirs. This stalls the negotiations into open hostility, as has happened in our dialogues.

Now, when the other route is done what we do is that we make the two parties realise that a) an agreement is important, thus, all discussions must lead to an agreement that is as mutually good for each party as possible b) the perfect solution does not exist, the only one that does would see both parties lose some and gain some c) each discussion should be done so in front of the other.

What this does is that a 'synthetic' agreement/ solution is worked out. Like it can be: Pakistan wants the glacial water ways to be free of Indian presence for hydrogeneration. India wants a deesclated military pressure in the region. Thus, India would free the regions Pakistan wants but there would be no military presence in the region except 200 light troops and so on. Just an example.

For such important diplomacy I think the PMs need to meet and talk.

dont you think our foreign ministers ( and other people involved in dialogue) carry unnecessary burden of our expectation when we dont know what is on the table?
This way, talks are bound to fail, and we say we cant agree on things and blame poor chaps.

 

[illusion8]

To be honest these deals are unrealistic because of the fact that India is not bargaining so it doesn't see anything worthwhile to agree to anything because there's nothing substantial on the table brought about by Pakistan for it to even consider one of their requests.

India just wants Pakistan to destroy it's terrorism infrastructure (so does half the world), Pakistan on the other hand wants a lot of things from India.

The question is why would we even consider their request (they haven't been good neighbors - in fact they are the worst neighbors that anyone would want from an Indian perspective)?.- they are an hotbed of terrorism for crying out loud and this terrorism and fundamentalism is affecting the whole region and neighborhood.

So honestly I see a dead end for the endless talks which was the case in the past and will be in the future as well.

 

[Contrarian]

That is a very good question but to answer it I must ask for some reason herer. Let's look at how we think it should go: Pakistan asks something, Indian asks something, if these demands are acceptable there is progress. That however has not worked, for various reasons. I believe if we come to the table and not leave unless we have come up to a deal would be much more benefitial.

There lies the catch.
India only comes to the table to talk with sincerity when we know we want/need something from you.
As of now, we know that going to the table means Pakistan asking for something.
We require nothing from Pakistan, neither land, nor autonomy for any area, nor transit.

What we really want is access to Pakistani market. Pakistan under WTO rules is already obliged to do that. There is already 80% the liberalization done by going from positive list to negative list. The rest 20% will also be done in a few years unless Pakistan want to fall foul of WTO rules.

So..what benefit do we get by settling with Pakistan on any issue ?

 

[American Pakistani]

If the current situation in Pakistan is what you call "doing fine" then your definition of "doing fine" is different from mine.

Pakistan is doing fine since last 64+years. Even currently when it is engaged in wars it's economy is still slowly moving ahead. Not to forget this situation won't lasts long...everyone will try their luck on a huge market of 200Million & a land with plenty of natural resources so Pakistan has a future.

Solving Kashmir would be beneficial for both the countries. India being the bigger and more resourceful country can afford to keep it as it is and solving it does not bring any short term benefits to India. India will continue to spend on its military because of the China factor. The market access to CAR is not assured given the internal situation in Pakistan. However there will definitely be long term benefits for India from this. As I said before Pakistan would reap both short as well as long term benefits. PA can channel its resources which is massively India-centric now to tackle domestic issues.

Well it is your closed mind that thinks India won't benefit. The reality is India will benefit much more than Pakistan as it's business man can have friendly access to a huge market right on their doors...not only that but if the ties are friendly India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CAR's & Iran. And who knows Pakistan will help China & India get closer & friendlier. India will have to spend much less resources on military. This is like saving billions of $$ which are getting wasted rite now either by purchasing arms from foreigners or using longer routes to other countries.

There is no other solution that would be agreeable to both parties. Pakistanis don't talk about it because of the fear of backlash and it's kind of taboo to talk along that lines in Pakistan but I assume many in Pakistan have realized this. I have seen Pakistani commentators alluding to this in talk shows, but they can't clearly state it as it is. If you set aside your ego and think pragmatically this is about the only possible "peaceful" solution.

Even Indian media talks sometimes "Is the time come to give Azadi to Kashmir" but this doesn't mean they agree on that, so it is just to show the opinions of debaters. The problem is India who is not willing to solve the issue, there is a mindset in India that by delaying the issue & pushing it to back burner they will make people forget it but that strategy is not working & seems dangerous as people are desperate. On the other hand Pakistan has shown much flexibility since last 64+ years just to see India's stance getting harder & harder. In 47 Pakistan claimed the whole territory, then in 48 it agreed on referendum, years passed & it hint that solution based on the river formula, then Independence of Kashmir...whereas India in 47 didn't claimed that territory, then it promised right of self determination & today it calls it integral part. This is what we call arrogance...they push their own people & presented Kashmir as if it is East Punjab or Gujarat & make the issue egoistic. No country can show such flexibility on a complicated issue like Kashmir. IMO the best solution is referendum district wise, the districts where majority opt independence form an independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & Indian majority joins India.

 

[bronxbull]

Well Pakistan should offer a solution to end the seperatist movement in IOK.rather work with india on this.

In return the siachen should be demilitarized aswell as to find the solution for a possible solution of Kashmir problem so that the LOC could be turned into international border with only few changes

True but again please tell us what is that exact thing?

what is the solution and what are those changes?

Pakistan can give India the best & complete direct access to central Asia, Afghanistan, Iran in all road, rail, air & sea but its a give & take world you need access we will give you that but we also need for you to solve the Kashmir Issue that Pakistan have with India so lets solve the Kashmir issue & India gets the best of transit facilities, direct access to Afghanistan, CAR regions, Iran , the shorter Arabian sea route through Pakistan
direct rail, road access from literally every part of India, gas stations, hotels, dry ports, storage facilities, on the highways for your exports
heck you can even ship your goods directly from your factories to the central Asian republics via Rail & road going through Pakistan, so see we have bought quite a good deal for you on the table our requirement is just one which is lets solve the Kashmir issue on the table too
peace

So a land route through Kabul northwards?

do u honestly think u can provide security for this trip?

Well, I don't want to deviate from the thread, but I really don't feel it is as far-fetched as I would have hoped.

Baluchistan and KPK will become Afghanistan #2 and #3: lawless wastelands where Iran/Arabs/US/everyone will jockey to install their favorite puppet.
Kashmir will be gobbled up by India.
Punjab will get the bulk of Pakistan's military might.
Karachi will become a city state like Monaco or Luxemburg.
Sindh will become a vassal state of India like Nepal or Bhutan.



It's not about what India wants, but what Pakistan will do to itself, all by itself.



As I wrote above, this is about internal dynamics of Pakistan. India doesn't need to do anything.

The capable, nationalist leaders are few and far between. The field is dominated by ethnic and self-serving politicians who act more like regional governors (or worse) than national leaders.

I dont see KPK leaving Pak for any reason.

 

[bronxbull]

The best solution to Kashmir issue is referendum in every district of Kashmir region. Where there is majority votes for independence those districts can form independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & India majority joins India. This is my honest opinion...people who are saying converting LoC into IB are not realistic as this means second defeat for Pakistan after 71.

The solution of Kashmir issue will create a friendly environment between Pakistan & India & the markets of both countries will open for each other. India will get a huge market of almost 200million people to export it's Automobiles, etc right next door & Pakistan will get a market to export it's gems/minerals/natural resources, cement & can benefit from India's space experience. Further more India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CARs & Iran which will be a plus to 200million Pakistanis. Pakistan will then also help India get closer to China & play a role that can end disputes between China & India. A friendly relationship between Pakistan, China & India will be a force to reckon with.

P.S There is some serious trolling & derailing going on in this thread about Pakistani survival. So i request @Aeronaut for clean up the thread from offtopic posts.

Sorry but thats a very stupid idea,district by district.

No referendum is going to happen,current status quo is here to stay.

To be honest we would offer you nothing on Siacehn. Considering the fact even you haven't achieved anything expect occupying a frozen wasteland. I don't think we would be able to give anything for this futile exercise except making it a peace park or something like that. Siachen hasn't give anything to India either except casualties and expenses and false bravado. Neither you can target KKH. Nor you can threaten any populated region of GB like Skardu.

So if we can offer you anything on Siachen. We can offer you to withdraw our troops if you withdraw your troops and make Siachen a peace park or something like that. We are also ready for third party meditation for this issue, which we know you won't agree to.



Best solution would be that India can continue holding Ladakh and Jammu. While Pakistan can be given the valley part which is the most anti-India region of Kashmir. In return we can accept Indian sovereignty on Ladakh and Jammu and LOC can be turned into IB. Or else like today you can continue lame as$ "Kashmir is India's integral part" rant and in return we can give you confusion, destabilization, deaths and threat of war. We might not war but then we are responsible for act of any jihaidi if India continues with its ignorant attitude.

To be honest,we can control Indian Mujahideen.

There are ways to do things and indian muslims are not a problem for us.

The problem is the people who could be in Kashmir doing Hamla on the Army.

we do handle that also.

I never threatened anyone. I just said that if Kashmir isn't resolved due to Indian behavior and smme terrorist or militant or jihadi group does something in Kashmir or in India then I don't think Pakistani govt or state should be held responsible for it. It might be condemnable but due to the major issues aren't resolved so there is always a possibility for such incidents.



Fine. Then you should be fine with any militant or terror activity in Kashmir or in India. After all it is part and parcel of the "peace" that your country is comfortable with.

To be honest,we know that ISI is doing whatever it is doing,the whole moral act about terrorism is a diplomatic war,basically ruining your reputation and it is something very difficult to fight against.

 

[American Pakistani]

Sorry but thats a very stupid idea,district by district.

No referendum is going to happen,current status quo is here to stay.

So be it...why even bother to browse this thread?

 

[bronxbull]

same reason why u bothered to answer.

Pakistan is doing fine since last 64+years. Even currently when it is engaged in wars it's economy is still slowly moving ahead. Not to forget this situation won't lasts long...everyone will try their luck on a huge market of 200Million & a land with plenty of natural resources so Pakistan has a future.





Well it is your closed mind that thinks India won't benefit. The reality is India will benefit much more than Pakistan as it's business man can have friendly access to a huge market right on their doors...not only that but if the ties are friendly India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CAR's & Iran. And who knows Pakistan will help China & India get closer & friendlier. India will have to spend much less resources on military. This is like saving billions of $$ which are getting wasted rite now either by purchasing arms from foreigners or using longer routes to other countries.



Even Indian media talks sometimes "Is the time come to give Azadi to Kashmir" but this doesn't mean they agree on that, so it is just to show the opinions of debaters. The problem is India who is not willing to solve the issue, there is a mindset in India that by delaying the issue & pushing it to back burner they will make people forget it but that strategy is not working & seems dangerous as people are desperate. On the other hand Pakistan has shown much flexibility since last 64+ years just to see India's stance getting harder & harder. In 47 Pakistan claimed the whole territory, then in 48 it agreed on referendum, years passed & it hint that solution based on the river formula, then Independence of Kashmir...whereas India in 47 didn't claimed that territory, then it promised right of self determination & today it calls it integral part. This is what we call arrogance...they push their own people & presented Kashmir as if it is East Punjab or Gujarat & make the issue egoistic. No country can show such flexibility on a complicated issue like Kashmir. IMO the best solution is referendum district wise, the districts where majority opt independence form an independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & Indian majority joins India.

If the Kashmiris were truly a self respecting lot,they would refuse Indian Aid,not step out of Jammu unless necessary,not study in Indian Universities,Not do business of Kashmiri products in India.

Basically they would refuse all levels of contact with India,nobody is ready to do that.

Not Omar Abdullah,not Mufti Mohd Sayeed or yasin Malik.

They only talk but they also want to lead a nice life,khao piyo aish karo.

Thats the issue.