What does Pakistan bring to the table on Kashmir, Siachen?

[Yeti]

Believe me India would be accommodative in case of Sir Creek and Siachen, if Pakistan is accommodative on Kashmir.

Siachen is of strategic importance to the Military of India and we will always keep a presence there no matter what. That is the words of our army chief when asked this question by a Pakistani journo.

If we control it that means it is our land and we will no give a inch of it to anyone that is the same for China or Pakistan and any other country.

 

[Areesh]

To be honest,we can control Indian Mujahideen.

There are ways to do things and indian muslims are not a problem for us.

The problem is the people who could be in Kashmir doing Hamla on the Army.

we do handle that also.



To be honest,we know that ISI is doing whatever it is doing,the whole moral act about terrorism is a diplomatic war,basically ruining your reputation and it is something very difficult to fight against.

Always knew India never wanted to resolve any issue with Pakistan. Your post just reconfirmed that.

That is the point. You want something, India doesn't. Do you see many Indians talking about the necessity to solve Siachen? The reason is simple, we have control. If you want something to be done to the status quo, it is incumbent on you to explain why. We are happy with the status quo.

Bold part. You again proved my point that India doesn't want to resolve issues with Pakistan. Wonder why you open thread like this one if you don't want to resolve issues with your neighbors. At one hand you are not interested in resolving issues with Pakistan and on the other you are idiotically asking what we can offer you on Siachen and Kashmir. What a farce!!!

This is a standard Pakistani position of wanting something for nothing. You want a portion of Indian controlled territory & in return, you are proposing that India can keep other parts of Indian controlled territory. Maybe that seems logical in your head but is plain silly to anyone else. The question was why India should agree to any of your proposals & what will you offer India in return. Trade/better relations will/may/can follow or otherwise, they will not be the determining factor in any agreement. India will not give up territory for better trade prospects, that kind of thinking betrays a lack of realism and logic. The question was what will you bring to the table to get India to want a deal, not what your laundry list of pipe dreams is.

It is all logical. 45% of your so called atoot ang is already controlled by your "friends" China and Pakistan. If you vacate a small portion of your occupied territory, which also happens to be the most anti India part of "atoot ang" then not only you are resolving one of the most oldest dispute in this region but once relations have improved with you, we can also offer you more concessions like in trade etc. We cannot have peaceful relations with you, when your security forces are busy massacring people for protesting against alleged Quran burning. It is not possible. Might be possible for Indians. Not for us.

In short if you want Pakistan to bring anything on table, first thing is that you guys need to smell the coffee and accept a few hard facts.

 

[deckingraj]

Always knew India never wanted to resolve any issue with Pakistan. Your post just reconfirmed that.

Areesh, stop making such judgmental posts...In case you already knew that India doesn't want to resolve issue then why bother being part of a such threads??

Bold part. You again proved my point that India doesn't want to resolve issues with Pakistan. Wonder why you open thread like this one if you don't want to resolve issues with your neighbors. At one hand you are not interested in resolving issues with Pakistan and on the other you are idiotically asking what we can offer you on Siachen and Kashmir. What a farce!!!

It seems you have missed the context of this thread. The basic purpose of this thread is to know what can Pakistan bring on table that will convince India to settle a dispute where we believe by maintaining status quo we are in advantageous position.

It is all logical. 45% of your so called atoot ang is already controlled by your "friends" China and Pakistan. If you vacate a small portion of your occupied territory, which also happens to be the most anti India part of "atoot ang" then not only you are resolving one of the most oldest dispute in this region but once relations have improved with you, we can also offer you more concessions like in trade etc.

So basically what you are putting on table is concessions like "trade". I am not sure if the option is good enough, no?? Try to put yourself in Indian shoes and then say Giving away land for which you have fought so many wars in getting a opportunity to trade with Pakistan is a deal worthy enough?

We cannot have peaceful relations with you, when your security forces are busy massacring people for protesting against alleged Quran burning. It is not possible. Might be possible for Indians. Not for us.
In short if you want Pakistan to bring anything on table, first thing is that you guys need to smell the coffee and accept a few hard facts.

A bit contradictory. On one hand you say India is not interested in solving the dispute, on other hand you say in case you want Pakistan do something first you change. Please explain a bit more on this.

 

[Developereo]

I dont see KPK leaving Pak for any reason.

Never underestimate the ability of our entrenched Punjabi/Sindhi elite to alienate the rest of the country.

 

[bronxbull]

somehow i feel the pathans are a patriotic lot.

 

[farhan_9909]

KPK is not going anywhere,Not even the FATA.
Infact not even the TTP has ever demanded to annex FATA into Afghanistan

Pakistani pashtuns(more than 30millions) compared to in afghanistan only less than 10millions and of them 2-3millions are already in Pakistan will never ever want to merge with afghanistan until and unless dirty people like tajik and uzbek are in Afghanistan.

I rather see a formation of Loy Pakhtunkhwa within Pakistan to merge the Pashtuns majority parts of Pakistan into 1 single province(KPK,Southern balochistan and FATA)

 

[Areesh]

Areesh, stop making such judgmental posts...In case you already knew that India doesn't want to resolve issue then why bother being part of a such threads??.

Well I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of Indians who keep on blaming Pakistan for all the mess in this region or in fact in this world. While it is India who is first responsible for creating a dispute and then not resolving it.

It seems you have missed the context of this thread. The basic purpose of this thread is to know what can Pakistan bring on table that will convince India to settle a dispute where we believe by maintaining status quo we are in advantageous position.

Why should Pakistan bring you anything when you aren't interested to resolve longstanding disputes with Pakistan. For such type of immature behavior by a state I don't know why state of Pakistan would be forced to offer something to resolve such issues. Interest is the basic prerequisite to resolve such issues. And India clearly lacks it. Good situation for the jihadis though.

So basically what you are putting on table is concessions like "trade". I am not sure if the option is good enough, no?? Try to put yourself in Indian shoes and then say Giving away land for which you have fought so many wars in getting a opportunity to trade with Pakistan is a deal worthy enough?

And what can you offer us if we accept your proposal to LOC as IB. Nothing. At least we are offering you something. Something important like regional stability. Most importantly regional stability to which state of India is the biggest hurdle.

A bit contradictory. On one hand you say India is not interested in solving the dispute, on other hand you say in case you want Pakistan do something first you change. Please explain a bit more on this.

What is contradictory in it? When India doesn't want to resolve issues with Pakistan, then it is totally meaningless to ask what Pakistan can offer to resolve these issues. Make up your mind firs that you really want to resolve these old issues and only then we can think of offering you something. This is where the change yourself part comes in.

 

[American Pakistani]

same reason why u bothered to answer.

You quote my post so i had to answer.

If the Kashmiris were truly a self respecting lot,they would refuse Indian Aid

India is not giving aid to Kashmir.

not step out of Jammu unless necessary,not study in Indian Universities,Not do business of Kashmiri products in India.

Why? Didn't many Indians before 1947 used to study in British Universities, hold British passport, do business with Britishers?

Not Omar Abdullah,not Mufti Mohd Sayeed or yasin Malik.

Omar Abdullah is Indian installed puppet. Yasin Malik slammed one Indian anchor hard & shut his mouth when that anchor asked similar question. As for Mufti Mohd Sayeed...i never hear that name.

They only talk but they also want to lead a nice life,khao piyo aish karo.

Thats the issue.

lol...prove that they are living nice lives. They have dedicate their whole life fighting for Kashmiris(going jails, getting torture, etc)...do you call this nice life?

KPK is not going anywhere,Not even the FATA.
Infact not even the TTP has ever demanded to annex FATA into Afghanistan

These trolls think they got their doctorate in Pakistan Affairs.

Pakistani pashtuns(more than 30millions) compared to in afghanistan only less than 10millions and of them 2-3millions are already in Pakistan will never ever want to merge with afghanistan until and unless dirty people like tajik and uzbek are in Afghanistan.

Sorry Sir...I didn't understand the bold part. Do you mean if Tajik & Uzbek leave Afghanistan then Pakistani Pashtuns will join Afghanistan?

I rather see a formation of Loy Pakhtunkhwa within Pakistan to merge the Pashtuns majority parts of Pakistan into 1 single province(KPK,Southern balochistan and FATA)

I will respectfully disagree with you. Actually Pakistan needs more provinces. All Pakistani provinces need to be divided so that governing & developing them will get easier.

 

[jaunty]

Pakistan is doing fine since last 64+years. Even currently when it is engaged in wars it's economy is still slowly moving ahead. Not to forget this situation won't lasts long...everyone will try their luck on a huge market of 200Million & a land with plenty of natural resources so Pakistan has a future.

My best wishes with that but I wasn't even talking about the economy. Your problems are deep rooted and there is no magic wand to solve them. It is a culmination of decades of wrong policies and they aren't going to go away that easily.

Well it is your closed mind that thinks India won't benefit. The reality is India will benefit much more than Pakistan as it's business man can have friendly access to a huge market right on their doors...not only that but if the ties are friendly India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CAR's & Iran. And who knows Pakistan will help China & India get closer & friendlier. India will have to spend much less resources on military. This is like saving billions of $$ which are getting wasted rite now either by purchasing arms from foreigners or using longer routes to other countries.

All of those are mere conjectures with no certainties. I was explaining the ground realities.

The problem is India who is not willing to solve the issue

Isn't that exactly what I said too? GoI is perfectly happy maintaining the status quo. And I have already explained the reasons why. It's much more of a drag on the economy of Pakistan than India. India is not going to spend less on defense even if Kashmir gets solved. I think you should understand this clearly. It's not about what India should or should not do. India is NOT going to give up even an inch of land that it controls now. So any solution that involves India giving up any land is not practical.

 

[deckingraj]

Well I just wanted to point out the hypocrisy of Indians who keep on blaming Pakistan for all the mess in this region or in fact in this world. While it is India who is first responsible for creating a dispute and then not resolving it.

Ummm...but that is not this thread is for...b/w i do see people in opposite side of the border that all the wrongs in their country is due to India/USA/Israel and the entire west...so again let's not get in that tangle and discuss the issue if you want to....Otherwise you have done your bit by showing the hypocrisy and now can bid adieu..fair??

Why should Pakistan bring you anything when you aren't interested to resolve longstanding disputes with Pakistan.

bcoz as per you Pakistan want's to solve the dispute but India doesn't....heck, not sure why it is difficult to put even a basic thing across...Look you are party to this dispute because there is an interest that you want to protect, no?? Obviously you want India to agree to vacate some area as per your aspirations....In a situation of "Might is Right" you could have forced india out of the Kashmir which you are unable to...so in case you want India to still agree to your terms you will have to bring something on the table...The thread is to figure out what possibly can that something be...

Now may i ask you to either answer that or feel free to opt out of the discussion.

For such type of immature behavior by a state I don't know why state of Pakistan would be forced to offer something to resolve such issues. Interest is the basic prerequisite to resolve such issues. And India clearly lacks it. Good situation for the jihadis though. And what can you offer us if we accept your proposal to LOC as IB. Nothing. At least we are offering you something. Something important like regional stability. Most importantly regional stability to which state of India is the biggest hurdle.

Now this is a good enough question. However you could have asked this without the other rhetoric...Anyhow based upon your replies so far what i can make out about Pakistan offer is

- Trade
- Regional Stability

Let me first talk about later...Offering regional stability is pure black-mail...It is like saying that we will continue to support terrorists in case you don't heed to our demands...First one i have already debunked in last post...in short there is nothing much that Pakistan can offer even if she wishes to...

Now let's talk about us...What we can offer
- Addressing Pakistan concern about water sharing..
- Completely forgo our claim on Gilgit/Baltistan and other areas in P-O-K..
- Solving Siachen in an amicable fashion and addressing Pakistan concerns there...
- For sake of keeping it short not going into the other areas of co-operation where Pakistan can benefit by improving ties...

Now you may find them not enough as well...but then please note the status quo is in our favor and thus onus is definitely more on you.

What is contradictory in it? When India doesn't want to resolve issues with Pakistan, then it is totally meaningless to ask what Pakistan can offer to resolve these issues. Make up your mind firs that you really want to resolve these old issues and only then we can think of offering you something. This is where the change yourself part comes in.

Don't be stubborn....you are behaving as if India is a child and Pakistan her mommy who is instructing her to make up her mind!! Are you going to create something new once India makes up her mind?? Your ability to offer something or not won't change irrespective of what's there in India's mind...Why can't you admit there is practically nothing worth that can be offered by which India be lured into settling Kashmir issue?? This admission is not going to lessen your stand by any stretch of imagination...

 

[Areesh]

Ummm...but that is not this thread is for...b/w i do see people in opposite side of the border that all the wrongs in their country is due to India/USA/Israel and the entire west...so again let's not get in that tangle and discuss the issue if you want to....Otherwise you have done your bit by showing the hypocrisy and now can bid adieu..fair??

I would leave the thread when I want to. Not of your concern.

bcoz as per you Pakistan want's to solve the dispute but India doesn't....heck, not sure why it is difficult to put even a basic thing across...Look you are party to this dispute because there is an interest that you want to protect, no?? Obviously you want India to agree to vacate some area as per your aspirations....In a situation of "Might is Right" you could have forced india out of the Kashmir which you are unable to...so in case you want India to still agree to your terms you will have to bring something on the table...The thread is to figure out what possibly can that something be...

And my point is that Pakistan shouldn't bring anything to table as it is useless due to Indian attitude. An obvious problem is not a problem for you guys. And nowhere I want you to agree to Pakistani terms. Or else I would have asked India to hand over whole of Kashmir including Siachen to Pakistan as this is our official stance. I provided you with the most suitable solution on both Siachen and Kashmir issues. And in return I gave a few options that Pakistan can share with India. But then as I said. You guys are just not serious about resolving issues with Pakistan and that's why dialogues with you guys are a waste.

Offering regional stability is pure black-mail...It is like saying that we will continue to support terrorists in case you don't heed to our demands...

We might not support terrorists but we might not also stop them from working in IOK. Particularly at a moment when Indian state is busy oppressing and murdering people in Kashmir. I don't why we should make these terrorists our enemies when India on the other hand is involved in human rights violations in Kashmir. Like it looks stupid that we should stop militants from going to IOK while Indian security forces are busy murdering Kashmiri youth.

First one i have already debunked in last post

About trade. State of India always wanted to discuss trade related issues more than Kashmir. If it is that less important why GOI was always so excited about Pakistan giving MFN status to India.

in short there is nothing much that Pakistan can offer even if she wishes to

OK.

- Addressing Pakistan concern about water sharing..

Looking at the Indian behavior this doesn't seems to be a very exciting or compelling prospect for us. Even the present talks on different dams and electricity projects failed to materialize.

- Completely forgo our claim on Gilgit/Baltistan and other areas in P-O-K..

Not good enough for us. In fact it is you who needs Pakistan to forgo its claim on IOK as it would help you to cool down things in IOK. Things are very peaceful and smooth in AJK and GB and I don't think Indian claim on those territories creates any major problem for us. In fact by converting LOC into IB we might start a new trouble in our parts of Kashmir.

- Solving Siachen in an amicable fashion and addressing Pakistan concerns there...

Would like you to explain this part. How would you address Pakistani concerns and that too without withdrawing your forces from it.

- For sake of keeping it short not going into the other areas of co-operation where Pakistan can benefit by improving ties...

Explain this part too.

Don't be stubborn....you are behaving as if India is a child and Pakistan her mommy who is instructing her to make up her mind!! Are you going to create something new once India makes up her mind?? Your ability to offer something or not won't change irrespective of what's there in India's mind...Why can't you admit there is practically nothing worth that can be offered by which India be lured into settling Kashmir issue?? This admission is not going to lessen your stand by any stretch of imagination...

Again you didn't get the point. You think all is good. Everything is normal. And that's why you don't need to resolve anything with Pakistan. While the ground reality is totally different. This is why I said you to change your mind. Realize that Yes there is a problem. Things are not normal. There is an issue in a territory called as Kashmir. Once you have realized this, only then we would be able to move forward with dialogues. Or else we have seen rounds after rounds of useless talks which turnout to be meaning less high tea sessions.

 

[Jade]

I am not interested in any talks on Kashmir with Pakistan. It is waste of time of all the people involved as is this debate. Present situation between India and Pakistan suits India fine.

 

[deckingraj]

I would leave the thread when I want to. Not of your concern.

of-course...but then being on a thread which is stark opposite to your pre-conceived notion kind of not making sense either...anyhow u r the best judge...b/w since our posts are getting very long i have trimmed them...Plz let me know in case i have missed some point where you wanted my reply...

And my point is that Pakistan shouldn't bring anything to table as it is useless due to Indian attitude.

Forget about Indian attitude and for once assume Indian attitude changes as per your liking...Now tell me what do you have to offer apart from Trade and control on Jihadi's...As said your ability to provide something in return will not change irrespective of what Indian attitude is...The thread is to understand "what is that"...I hope i am able to make myself clear this time...

Again you didn't get the point. You think all is good. Everything is normal. And that's why you don't need to resolve anything with Pakistan. While the ground reality is totally different. This is why I said you to change your mind. Realize that Yes there is a problem. Things are not normal. There is an issue in a territory called as Kashmir. Once you have realized this, only then we would be able to move forward with dialogues. Or else we have seen rounds after rounds of useless talks which turnout to be meaning less high tea sessions.

What a biased opinion....What made you think I am saying everything is hunky dowry in Kashmir?? Show me my comments that made you say so....All i am saying is that present status quo favors us viz-a-viz Pakistan...this is from the perspective of L-O-C...I would be a fool to say that there is no turmoil in Indian Kashmir....however saying things are normal in P-O-K is also not a smart statement to make....Anyhow i have nothing much to discuss in that regard.

I am not interested in any talks on Kashmir with Pakistan. It is waste of time of all the people involved as is this debate. Present situation between India and Pakistan suits India fine.

Not really my friend...Having said that we have learned to live with the cost involved...both in terms of men and resources...that doesn't mean the situation suits us...but yes we are in advantageous position viz-a-viz Pakistan in strategic terms.

 

[Pakistanisage]

Thats a nice offer and in return India will offer Pakistan the best and easiest direct land and rail route to Nepal, Bhutan, Burma and Bangladesh. Route ke badle route.

But the questions in the OP still stands.

Are you really devoid of intelligence.

We already have Sea routes to Bangladesh and Burma which are the cheapest mode of Transportation. We do not need India's help to reach them.

Central Asian Markets are land locked and there India needs Pakistan's or Iran's help to reach those Markets.

 

[Bang Galore]

Are you really devoid of intelligence.

We already have Sea routes to Bangladesh and Burma which are the cheapest mode of Transportation. We do not need India's help to reach them.

...and you ask whether anyone else is devoid of intelligence?