What does Pakistan bring to the table on Kashmir, Siachen?

[KRAIT]

Regionalism is what did us in in 1971. The Punjabi-Sindhi feudal alliance sent the Bengalis packing.
Ethnic opportunists in Karachi/KPK/Baluchistan are both using and deriding regionalism for their own ends.
Ethnic and sectarian divides are increasing in society, but the national "leaders" are unconcerned beyond ritual sound bites.
Anyway, sorry for deviating from the main topic. Perhaps we can leave it here for now.

Believe me, many of us never liked Pakistan initially, may be due to what we saw during initial years but off lately, more I read and watch regarding situation of your country, I feel sympathy for those who are
suffering. I don't know what we are going to leave for our coming generations.


P.S. I know Indians are not living luxuriously. We have our share of misfortunes too. Many of grandeur proportions.

 

[illusion8]

@Bang Galore, with your permission I would like to add a couple of more questions.

To Pakistani members - Why is the Kashmir dispute resolution so crucial for Pakistan that it's imperative that it has to be resolved, and what would be an ideal resolution that is acceptable to the Pakistani people and the PA?.

To Indian members - Have Indian delegates demanded anything in return for settling of the various disputes that are so crucial and important for Pakistan while we are happy with the status quo?. The demands made by Pakistan are one sided as in it benefits Pakistan only that much is definitely obvious but have our worthwhile leaders demanded anything in return other than an end to terrorism (which by present situation in Pakistan is impossible) and a verdict on the Mumbai attack case that's gathering dust in Pakistani courts?.

 

[livingdead]

Honesty is not the issue, issue is pakistan is dominated by punjab just like UK is dominated by England.
The solution is more power to provinces, so that they dont feel like being ruled by punjab. Splitting punjab into few more states will also help.

@Bang Galore, with your permission I would like to add a couple of more questions.

To Pakistani members - Why is the Kashmir dispute resolution so crucial for Pakistan that it's imperative that it has to be resolved, and what would be an ideal resolution that is acceptable to the Pakistani people and the PA?.

To Indian members - Have Indian delegates demanded anything in return for settling of the various disputes that are so crucial and important for Pakistan while we are happy with the status quo?. The demands made by Pakistan are one sided as in it benefits Pakistan only that much is definitely obvious but have our worthwhile leaders demanded anything in return other than an end to terrorism (which by present situation in Pakistan is impossible) and a verdict on the Mumbai attack case that's gathering dust in Pakistani courts?.

ending terrorism is to remove the stick, I want to see the carrot.

 

[Sashan]

If Pakistan can give up its nuclear power ambitions and gets rid of its arsenal and also can end the cross border terrorism, then Siachen and to a certain extent Kashmir can be compromised(in that part of the Kashmir Valley can be compromised - mind it area around the rivers running across to other states like Punjab should be retained by India). Considering there is only a hostile population over there in the Valley to a certain extent and coupled with it, the rest of India need not be under the nuclear and terrorism blackmail, it will be only a win for India. And added to it, Kashmir Pandit issue should be settled as well as part of the discussions. If all these objectives are met, then the question is why not? . But practically speaking none of the objectives will be achieved and the issue will only drag on for another few decades until something unforeseen happens.

 

[illusion8]

Honesty is not the issue, issue is pakistan is dominated by punjab just like UK is dominated by England.
The solution is more power to provinces, so that they dont feel like being ruled by punjab. Splitting punjab into few more states will also help.


ending terrorism is to remove the stick, I want to see the carrot.

That's selling Indian interests down the river, terrorism is sr@wing Pakistan more than it is India so any moratorium on that (especially promises from Pakistani mouths is not even worth cow ****). I would personally want more than their word.

 

[Kaniska]

I am not against regional pride and regional power. I had discussed this with Indians some time back, and the reason regionalism works in India is because there are enough regional powerbrokers to reduce the chance of collusion and keep everyone (relatively) honest.

In Pakistan, on the other hand, the Punjabi (PML-N) and Sindhi (PPP) parties dominate the scene and take turns serving their regional constituencies.

Everyone else gets left out in the cold.

Perpetually.



I agree. Pakistan has had few governments (probably Musharraf's was one) which stressed national interests over regional interests.

I think, you are upset due to the situation in Pakistan today...But i feel that Pakistan as a nation and the concept of Pakistan is a evolving process till now...You have done so many good works limited resources....Your team is lacking a good leader like Jinnah..And 2nd thing what i like to see in Pakistan is for once an all, dude you have to move away with framing your policy with baggage of some foreign nation like US and SA....They may be your friends...But i can see your friends interere in your national affair more than your enemy like India..I mean my point is you have to understand your invisible challenges to your nation.

 

[American Pakistani]

The best solution to Kashmir issue is referendum in every district of Kashmir region. Where there is majority votes for independence those districts can form independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & India majority joins India. This is my honest opinion...people who are saying converting LoC into IB are not realistic as this means second defeat for Pakistan after 71.

The solution of Kashmir issue will create a friendly environment between Pakistan & India & the markets of both countries will open for each other. India will get a huge market of almost 200million people to export it's Automobiles, etc right next door & Pakistan will get a market to export it's gems/minerals/natural resources, cement & can benefit from India's space experience. Further more India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CARs & Iran which will be a plus to 200million Pakistanis. Pakistan will then also help India get closer to China & play a role that can end disputes between China & India. A friendly relationship between Pakistan, China & India will be a force to reckon with.

P.S There is some serious trolling & derailing going on in this thread about Pakistani survival. So i request @Aeronaut for clean up the thread from offtopic posts.

 

[Kaniska]

The best solution to Kashmir issue is referendum in every district of Kashmir region. Where there is majority votes for independence those districts can form independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & India majority joins India. This is my honest opinion...people who are saying converting LoC into IB are not realistic as this means second defeat for Pakistan after 71.

The solution of Kashmir issue will create a friendly environment between Pakistan & India & the markets of both countries will open for each other. India will get a huge market of almost 200million people to export it's Automobiles, etc right next door & Pakistan will get a market to export it's gems/minerals/natural resources, cement & can benefit from India's space experience. Further more India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CARs & Iran which will be a plus to 200million Pakistanis. Pakistan will then also help India get closer to China & play a role that can end disputes between China & India. A friendly relationship between Pakistan, China & India will be a force to reckon with.

P.S There is some serious trolling & derailing going on in this thread about Pakistani survival. So i request @Aeronaut for clean up the thread from offtopic posts.

I agree with your suggestion of points of benefits of good relation..But I am not sure India will be ready for this referendum in near future...

 

[Capt.Popeye]

@Developereo; You have raised some serious points below. Let me try to respond as sincerely.

Well, I don't want to deviate from the thread, but I really don't feel it is as far-fetched as I would have hoped.


1.Baluchistan and KPK will become Afghanistan #2 and #3: lawless wastelands where Iran/Arabs/US/everyone will jockey to install their favorite puppet.
2.Kashmir will be gobbled up by India.
3.Punjab will get the bulk of Pakistan's military might.
4.Karachi will become a city state like Monaco or Luxemburg.
5.Sindh will become a vassal state of India like Nepal or Bhutan.

Point#1 is very valid, and your prediction will be absolutely correct.
Point#2 is not viable; at worst (or best), some re-adjustment of the LOC can take place.
Point#3 is a fact; the center of gravity in Pakistan is and will remain Punjab.
Point#4 can't say anything for sure.
Point#5 seems impossible; there is no reason that the people of Sind (regardless of internecine battles) will ever want to accept subservience to India.

It's not about what India wants, but what Pakistan will do to itself, all by itself.

Yes, that part is a matter of concern; certainly.

As I wrote above, this is about internal dynamics of Pakistan. India doesn't need to do anything.

Agreed on this point. People within Pakistan have the potential to do more harm to Pakistan than India can.

The capable, nationalist leaders are few and far between. The field is dominated by ethnic and self-serving politicians who act more like regional governors (or worse) than national leaders.

What you say here, has been an intrinsic part of Pakistan's existence since her inception. But Pakistan still exists! I do feel that your pessimism is "over-blown".

 

[joekrish]

The best solution to Kashmir issue is referendum in every district of Kashmir region. Where there is majority votes for independence those districts can form independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & India majority joins India. This is my honest opinion...people who are saying converting LoC into IB are not realistic as this means second defeat for Pakistan after 71.

The solution of Kashmir issue will create a friendly environment between Pakistan & India & the markets of both countries will open for each other. India will get a huge market of almost 200million people to export it's Automobiles, etc right next door & Pakistan will get a market to export it's gems/minerals/natural resources, cement & can benefit from India's space experience. Further more India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CARs & Iran which will be a plus to 200million Pakistanis. Pakistan will then also help India get closer to China & play a role that can end disputes between China & India. A friendly relationship between Pakistan, China & India will be a force to reckon with.

P.S There is some serious trolling & derailing going on in this thread about Pakistani survival. So i request @Aeronaut for clean up the thread from offtopic posts.

Mate, Business or no business is a different discussion, you will gain and we will too but you are yet to address the core question, what is Pakistan bringing to the table?

 

[American Pakistani]

I agree with your suggestion of points of benefits of good relation..But I am not sure India will be ready for this referendum in near future...

If majority people are peace loving then i' am sure they will come up with something similar which will be acceptable to all three parties. The benefits & fruits of Peace are infinite...fighting & quarreling since last 64+years could achieve nothing for either side but alot for outsiders.

Mate, Business or no business is a different discussion, you will gain and we will too but you are yet to address the core question, what is Pakistan bringing to the table?

Well that is a troll question, what if i say you too are bringing anything on the table as IOK/Maqbooza Kashmir is not your territory. Same as India bringing that Eastern part of Kashmir Pakistan can bring Western part.

 

[livingdead]

If majority people are peace loving then i' am sure they will come up with something similar which will be acceptable to all three parties. The benefits & fruits of Peace are infinite...fighting & quarreling since last 64+years could achieve nothing for either side but alot for outsiders.



Well that is a troll question, what if i say you too are bringing anything on the table as IOK/Maqbooza Kashmir is not your territory. Same as India bringing that Eastern part of Kashmir Pakistan can bring Western part.

its not a troll question. Its a question of real give and take. Whether IoK is our or not is not the issue. We are the status quo power.
Now if any negotiation to be made regarding kashmir with pakistan then I dont understand what will pakistan bring to negotiating table.

The reason why talks fail, is because we believe lack of peace (status quo) is better off than giving up something. Its for others to change our mind and say 'you will lose x, but you will gain y, so why not do a deal'?

when foregn ministry mandarins meet and talk, what exactly will they agree about. Do you think Indian counterpart will just give things for free and walk empty handed. He will lose his job in no time.

 

[joekrish]

If majority people are peace loving then i' am sure they will come up with something similar which will be acceptable to all three parties. The benefits & fruits of Peace are infinite...fighting & quarreling since last 64+years could achieve nothing for either side but alot for outsiders.



Well that is a troll question, what if i say you too are bringing anything on the table as IOK/Maqbooza Kashmir is not your territory. Same as India bringing that Eastern part of Kashmir Pakistan can bring Western part.

That would be a no deal, we do have a way bigger share, you need to add a lot, lot more than that, like bringing your nukes on to the table.
That does sound intresting, what do you think?

 

[American Pakistani]

its not a troll question. Its a question of real give and take. Whether IoK is our or not is not the issue. We are the status quo power.
Now if any negotiation to be made regarding kashmir with pakistan then I dont understand what will pakistan bring to negotiating table.

The reason why talks fail, is because we believe lack of peace (status quo) is better off than giving up something. Its for others to change our mind and say 'you will lose x, but you will gain y, so why not do a deal'?

when foregn ministry mandarins meet and talk, what exactly will they agree about. Do you think Indian counterpart will just give things for free and walk empty handed. He will lose his job in no time.

India & Pakistan will both bring the regions of Kashmir under their control. It's not like India will bring East Punjab or Delhi & give it away.

As for the question what India will achieve...that answer i give in post #52. Read the bold part.

The best solution to Kashmir issue is referendum in every district of Kashmir region. Where there is majority votes for independence those districts can form independent Kashmir, Pakistan majority joins Pakistan & India majority joins India. This is my honest opinion...people who are saying converting LoC into IB are not realistic as this means second defeat for Pakistan after 71.

The solution of Kashmir issue will create a friendly environment between Pakistan & India & the markets of both countries will open for each other. India will get a huge market of almost 200million people to export it's Automobiles, etc right next door & Pakistan will get a market to export it's gems/minerals/natural resources, cement & can benefit from India's space experience. Further more India will get shortest route to Afghanistan, CARs & Iran which will be a plus to 200million Pakistanis. Pakistan will then also help India get closer to China & play a role that can end disputes between China & India. A friendly relationship between Pakistan, China & India will be a force to reckon with.

P.S There is some serious trolling & derailing going on in this thread about Pakistani survival. So i request @Aeronaut for clean up the thread from offtopic posts.

That would be a no deal, we do have a way bigger share, you need to add a lot, lot more than that, like bringing your nukes on to the table.

I can do better trolling then you & remain in stealth mode, but don't wanna ruin the thread.

 

[Areesh]

# What exactly does Pakistan want to practically achieve on Siachen in any discussion with India? Considering that India holds the higher ground militarily, what is the reason (in Pakistani opinion) that might make India agree to give up that position? What exactly is Pakistan's part in the quid pro quo that would be the basis of any such agreement? What will Pakistan be putting on the table?

To be honest we would offer you nothing on Siacehn. Considering the fact even you haven't achieved anything expect occupying a frozen wasteland. I don't think we would be able to give anything for this futile exercise except making it a peace park or something like that. Siachen hasn't give anything to India either except casualties and expenses and false bravado. Neither you can target KKH. Nor you can threaten any populated region of GB like Skardu.

So if we can offer you anything on Siachen. We can offer you to withdraw our troops if you withdraw your troops and make Siachen a peace park or something like that. We are also ready for third party meditation for this issue, which we know you won't agree to.

# The same question on the larger issue of Kashmir. Pakistanis keep asking for a dialogue process but what is the reasonable settlement they seek, one that obviously will have to be signed off by India and therefore one that must meet its approval? Again what is it that Pakistan will offer in return for any compromise that they may seek from India? Why , in your view, do you think that India might be inclined to accept any such deal?

Best solution would be that India can continue holding Ladakh and Jammu. While Pakistan can be given the valley part which is the most anti-India region of Kashmir. In return we can accept Indian sovereignty on Ladakh and Jammu and LOC can be turned into IB. Or else like today you can continue lame as$ "Kashmir is India's integral part" rant and in return we can give you confusion, destabilization, deaths and threat of war. We might not war but then we are responsible for act of any jihaidi if India continues with its ignorant attitude.