What does it mean to be Pakistani?

[313ghazi]

Why do some Pakistani focus on identity and definitions.

I'm British, most people in this country don't really agree on a national identity. We barely see any flags, the majority are English and they don't celebrate the day of thier patron saint, there is no equivalent of August 14th...

...yet everything just works.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What an utterly enfuriating experience, to have a smart-arse kid denying the slaughter of thousands, the driving out of 10 million refugees, of a movement for equal rights that was bludgeoned into becoming a struggle for independence.

How is it that there are still deniers of the events of 71 in Pakistan? Is it all carefully concealed from school and college students?

Well, honestly, I can't expect much from Sanghis all charged up by Godi Media's propaganda! Obviously, you're going to blindly believe in the carefully orchestrated narrative. Heck, I'd be surprised if you didn't, heh!

First of all, ask the Moderators and your seniors in this forum.

I am not a Sanghi.

Second, I don't have to blindly believe anything. I was there, watching from the sidelines.

Ask someone who knows - you are clearly a script kiddie - to identify the figures up there.

Fun fact - I am there, too, in person. In fact, the whole family is there, mother on one side, father on the other, three of us on the floor.

So don't give me those mysterious ones and hypotheticals.

Oh, and there's also this book "Dead Reckoning" by Sarmila Bose, if you want to know what's real and what's fiction.

She's made a career out of it. Why blame her? On the other hand, there are accounts by Pakistani serving officers that described, peripherally, what happened then.

Trouble is you weren't born till several decades after the event. You wouldn't know. You don't know.

Why do some Pakistani focus on identity and definitions.

I'm British, most people in this country don't really agree on a national identity. We barely see any flags, the majority are English and they don't celebrate the day of thier patron saint, there is no equivalent of August 14th...

...yet everything just works.

You got it right on target.

They don't need it, because - BECAUSE - everything works.

 

[Fish]

First of all, ask the Moderators and your seniors in this forum.

I don't have to validate anything. If you think you're some big hotshot here and/or I'm just a whiny arse kid, so be it. I won't argue.

Not everything has to be a d!ck measuring contest, after all!

You've got the bigger d!ck, I get it. So, shall we move on? Or do you want to indulge yourself in some more primitive chest-thumping to "intimidate" a newbie like me?

I am not a Sanghi.

Oh, of course not.
You're the champion of human freedom or something, am I right or am I right?!
Too bad there aren't any humans left in Kashmir for your lordship to save...

Fun fact - I am there, too, in person. In fact, the whole family is there, mother on one side, father on the other, three of us on the floor.

Well, I was in Islamabad during the 1999's coup d'état. Does that mean I know everything there's to know about the power shift?!

By your logic, I do so... ask away!

She's made a career out of it. Why blame her? On the other hand, there are accounts by Pakistani serving officers that described, peripherally, what happened then.

Made a "career" out of it? By painting Pakistan in a more positive light and practically getting vilified by the entire freaking world in the process?

Oh sure, bruv. I believe ya! You're one based old chap, ain't ya?

Have you even looked at the ratings her book is getting at GoodReads, let alone read the actual book?

smart-arse kid

Passing ageist remarks to take control of a situation, heh!

It's impressive how you conveniently ignored pretty much everything I said. All I'm hearing is: "Blah blah blah, I'm a wise old dude who was "there" (wherever the heck "there" was) and knows everything, praise be upon me!"

Yeesh, someone's so full of himself.

 

[Warking]

Pakistan is an Idea
Its not just a country its a group of different cultures and peoples united to form a unified Islamic state that's goal is to make sure its people and the honor of Islam is upheld and and citizens may practice Islam if they chose to do so. Although there is no specific version of Islam is you look at different sects but there are core values of Quran and Sunnah that are accepted by everyone and through that we drive aspects of our legal code. Our purpose is to create a world where our civilization part of the Islamic civilization is united and strong and to never let any outside power ever colonize or opress us ever again. Our borders are forged from the blood of our martyrs. Although we have been betrayed by those we expected would protect though Pakistan now is nothing more that a slave state it is our duty as Pakistanis and as Muslims to fight like our ancestors did for our nation and for Islam. "Tera mera rishta kya? la ilaha illah".
Do not let this Idea die for ideas are the only thing that are bullet proof. It is our duty to fight for our country for Allah will ask us what we were doing when our brothers were killed and sisters raped. Everyone here should make whatever kind of effort they can to achieve this.

 

[S.Y.A]

Its just a nationality for me, nothing really that special about it.

so is being a pashtun. did you choose to be born this way? its just a linguistic identity, nothing special about it either.

also, the kpk part of land belongs to hindkoh people, if we are talking about who get here first. pashtuns came wayy later.

 

[S.Y.A]

I am from Karachi; my grandparents were mohajirs. In school I was fed the propaganda of the Pakistani state. In reality there are really not many things that make me feel proud to be a Pakistani. If the state cannot ensure that my views are heard, that the rule of law and Constitution is followed, that my life is made better, I would be better of living in a Karachi that was independent.

so were mine. the state is not a propaganda. you live in pakistan, hence you are a paksitani. your grandparents chose to move to pakistan not karachi. so did mine. rule of law and constiution is a national problem, not a karachi problem. ethnic politics, and divisions along those lines is a national problem, not a karachi problem.

what will happen in an independent karachi? will mqm thugs listen to you? or anp ethno-fascists(pashtuns have a large population in khi)? or ppp waderas? will that get your voice heard? there will be even more infighting for the control of resources. karachi, the city, is a part of sindh province anyways. since you want to break up the country, will the sindhis allow you to break away? its their land after all.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If you think you're some big hotshot here and/or I'm just a whiny arse kid, so be it. I won't argue.

Not everything has to be a d!ck measuring contest, after all!

Unlike the rather linear, shall we say, thinking of a kind that seems to persist in your counsels, not all measures of capacity are taken through a tape-measure in my world.

If your world revolves around stables, and around producing excellent horseflesh, you may be forgiven for your quick self-assessment. The fact is that you are venturing to reflect on matters about which you have not even a glimmering of knowledge or information, and only the rudiments of a self-inflicted vision of things past.

As of the present writing, you remain a whiny arse of a kid. You need to make major efforts to improve, again, to coin a phrase, your standing.

You've got the bigger d!ck, I get it. So, shall we move on? Or do you want to indulge yourself in some more primitive chest-thumping to "intimidate" a newbie like me?

LOL.

Do I even need to?

Oh, of course not.
You're the champion of human freedom or something, am I right or am I right?!

You are right, but it would have come more aptly - the word gracious is best left in abeyance as long as you persist in defending the indefensible - after you had consulted those with more than a week or so of membership.

Well, I was in Islamabad during the 1999's coup d'état. Does that mean I know everything there's to know about the power shift?!

Again, since you are so blank, I am considered something of a military historian. Again, to labour a point, since that seems to be methodology most accessible to you, this is military history gained from the works of Pakistani military historian. That is over and above my personal interconnections.

It is reassuring to learn that you were alive and sentient in 1999.

Made a "career" out of it? By painting Pakistan in a more positive light and practically getting vilified by the entire freaking world in the process?

Oh sure, bruv. I believe ya! You're one based old chap, ain't ya?

Have you even looked at the ratings her book is getting at GoodReads, let alone read the actual book?

I realise that I have got in deeper than I had thought, when I understand that your view of historical information is guided by GoodReads.

 

[Joe Shearer]

It's impressive how you conveniently ignored pretty much everything I said. All I'm hearing is: "Blah blah blah, I'm a wise old dude who was "there" (wherever the heck "there" was) and knows everything, praise be upon me!"

Yeesh, someone's so full of himself.

Learn to live with it. It is unfortunately an irreducible minimum, so you might as well take your humiliation and roll with the punches.

Now.

Have you anything to say beyond this increasingly shrill series of whines?

 

[Mirzali Khan]

so is being a pashtun. did you choose to be born this way? its just a linguistic identity, nothing special about it either.

also, the kpk part of land belongs to hindkoh people, if we are talking about who get here first. pashtuns came wayy later.

Yeah but there’s Pashtuns in Afghanistan. Also, there’s no difference between someone from Quetta and someone from Kandahar and also no difference between someone from Waziristan and someone from Khost. With that being said, I have more in common with someone from Kandahar than someone from Larkana or Mirpur. I don’t think there’s anything inherently “special” about being Pashtun.

I’m not from KPK, and that migration occurred over thousands of years before Pakistan was made. No one made a case for nativism because if that was the case then Zardari’s entire tribe isn’t native to Sindh and Nawaz Sharif’s lineage isn’t native to Pakistan and Punjab as a whole.

 

[Zhukov]

A National of the Country Pakistan.
Nothing more nothing less.

 

[expert]

Awesome. Now I remember where I heard those other bits.

Question - localised and modified - Will the Tamils feel Tamil first or Indian first?
Question - will the Telugus of Hyderabad and of Andhra feel Telugu first or Indian first?
Also for the Malayali, the Santal, the Gond, the Maria, the Bengali, the Sikkimese, the Nagas, the Meitei, the Mizo and the six tribes in Arunachal.

So creepy to read this, as every constitutional safeguard is being overwritten by the thugs in Delhi and the UP.


Word for word, fitting the Indian situation.

The difference between India and Pakistan is rule of law and democracy. Yes, they oppress Muslims and minorities but their elections are far freer and fairer than Pakistan where governments are selected and the army decides whether or not to even have elections. This ensure accountability.

People who say stuff against the state aren’t killed, jailed or threatened (except in Kashmir) on a scale that has happened in Pakistan in 1971, 1992 and 2023. Their fundamental rights are more or less protected. Their courts don’t follow a doctrine of necessity where the army decides how the case will be decided.

India is progressing. Pakistan is regressing.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The difference between India and Pakistan is rule of law and democracy. Yes, they oppress Muslims and minorities but their elections are far freer and fairer than Pakistan where governments are selected and the army decides whether or not to even have elections. This ensure accountability.

People who say stuff against the state aren’t killed, jailed or threatened (except in Kashmir) on a scale that has happened in Pakistan in 1971, 1992 and 2023. Their fundamental rights are more or less protected. Their courts don’t follow a doctrine of necessity where the army decides how the case will be decided.

India is progressing. Pakistan is regressing.

I sincerely hope and wish things will improve. In BOTH countries.

 

[Goritoes]

There is no such thing as " Pakistani ", we have Pashtoons, Punjabi, Sindhi, Saraiki, Kashmiri, Balochi, Urdu speaking, Shia , Sunni , Deobandi , etc etc but we have no Pakistani.

 

[TNT]

What does being Pakistani mean to you?

Pakistan is a diverse country. We have multiple nations, ethnicities, faiths—even though powerful quarters have, over the years, tried to limit this diversity thru various failed experiments and actively limiting freedom of expression. Narratives cannot be controlled in 2023. We should realize that in diversity is strength.

The force that binds us together should be the Constitution—not the army, or even religion. Yes, Islam is the state religion, but we cannot force upon a specific interpretation of Islam on the people. Hence, religion has been devisive, not unifiying.

With recent events and violation of the Constitution becoming the norm, what are the real sentiments of the different peoples of Pakistan? I am specially interested in KPK. What makes the people of KPK feel attachment to Pakistan? Do most people feel Pakhtun first and Pakistani second?

The 18th ammendment was supposed to be the answer. Federalism when implemented properly is the only way forward. How different are the current cirumstances from 1971 when the will of the people was blatantly ignored. I don’t see the army allowing the Constitutionin to be followed and the PTI coming to power in KPK thru the vote. What will happen next? We have been thru two coups since 1971. Pakistan survived those. Will it be different this time? Will there be armed resisitance? Will the army shoot down unarmed civilians? I am not aware of Balochistan, but it feels like there is a chance KPK might rise up if their Constitutional rights are trampled.

I am from Karachi; my grandparents were mohajirs. In school I was fed the propaganda of the Pakistani state. In reality there are really not many things that make me feel proud to be a Pakistani. If the state cannot ensure that my views are heard, that the rule of law and Constitution is followed, that my life is made better, I would be better of living in a Karachi that was independent. Unfortunately, none of the people that have represented us have been sincere. Then there is the establishment—who sees itself as the ”unifier”—who will not allow us to have our fundamental rights.

Where are we headed?

A someone born and living in KPK, i can tell u the sentiment of ppl and its hayred towards the army. Pashtuns have been thought to be anti Pakistan in the initial decades of Pakistan but that was just exaggeration, the real hatred is now and is growing. People now feel enslaved and think Afghanistan is better than Pakistan because in Afghanistan they wont be enslaved by a colonial remnant force. This hatred wont go away and will caise huge problems in future.
The only hope i saw was when ppl of punjab came out against the company and there seemed a country wide hatred for colonial sepoys, its the only hope of uniting Pakistan, united in hatred of the parasite.

 

[ThunderCat]

Pakistan was made in 1947, while Pashtuns, Punjabis, Sindhis, and Baloch have existed for 1000s of years.

Its not division, it is just facts.

All those groups are Indo-Iranic and have been since their formation thousands of years ago.