'We trusted the government to fight for us': Kerala fishermen disappointed in Italian marines case

[Nimitam]

If everyone agrees that the St Anthony was dead in the water, and the Enrica Lexia was passing close by,
then this certainly not a situation where a professional soldier would take any action.
A boat with maximum speed of 8 knots is certainly not suitable for piracy.
Not reporting is making the case worse for the Italians.

How about the 20 bullet holes found on the boat ?

How about the fact that they failed to inform India about having armed men (PANS) when in Indian EEZ ?

How about the fact that they conveniently ' failed' to archive data from the ship’s Voyage Data Recorder ?

Does any of that sound like a professional behaviour ?

In court, the Italian crew claim to have activated the Ship Security Alert System which automatically sends a message to the Italian Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre. However, they could not provide any evidence of this. Neither could Italy. How is that for professional behaviour ?

 

[Spectre]

If everyone agrees that the St Anthony was dead in the water, and the Enrica Lexia was passing close by,
then this certainly not a situation where a professional soldier would take any action.
A boat with maximum speed of 8 knots is certainly not suitable for piracy.
Not reporting is making the case worse for the Italians.

Look mate, Let me give you a short summary from a neutral PoV so that things stand a bit clearer.

1. Shooting happened and the facts presented by Indian prosecution were disputed by the Italians. Indian case has been well laid out by @Nimitam, Italians argue that shooting happened outside of Indian territorial waters (which India disputes) as such Indian jurisdiction is not applicable. They have not commented on "GUILT"

2. Indian courts have been perfectly cognizable of rights of Italian Marines. They have been given bail and conditions were only put when the Italians refused to send the Marines back which is in direct violations of bail conditions and guarantee by Italian Ambassador. After Supreme court of India held Italian Ambassador accountable for violation of bail, Italy sent the marines back.

3. Indian courts have granted all recourse to defence team of Italian Marines which adopted two pronged strategy
a. They delayed and delayed the trial by continuously asking for extensions and bringing motion upon motion related to choice of investigating agency.

- This confirms that they were willing accept Indian jurisdiction or else why ask for extensions and appeal for change in investigating agency

b. After they had managed to delay the trial for two/three years they moved to UNCLOS suddenly for arbitration where they sighted that Marines should be sent back to Italy as Indian courts have not managed to complete the trial

Do you see this duplicity First delay the trial by - i sighting that you are not prepared - ii wrong investigation agency (not prosecuting agency) has investigated the case leading to completely new investigation and then ask for nullification of trial on the grounds that it has been delayed.

Despite all this Indian court has agreed for arbitration and have sent one of the Marines back to Italy on humanitarian grounds.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

How about the 20 bullet holes found on the boat ?

How about the fact that they failed to inform India about having armed men (PANS) when in Indian EEZ ?

How about the fact that they conveniently ' failed' to archive data from the ship’s Voyage Data Recorder ?

Does any of that sound like a professional behaviour ?

In court, the Italian crew claim to have activated the Ship Security Alert System which automatically sends a message to the Italian Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre. However, they could not provide any evidence of this. Neither could Italy. How is that for professional behaviour ?

India only has sovereignity over territorial waters, not over EEZ.
In the EEZ, International Laws apply.
Not sure they grant India any rights to ask for information.

At court, if they have not followed the rules, that will be detrimental to their cause.

Look mate, Let me give you a short summary from a neutral PoV so that things stand a bit clearer.

1. Shooting happened and the facts presented by Indian prosecution were disputed by the Italians. Indian case has been well laid out by @Nimitam, Italians argue that shooting happened outside of Indian territorial waters (which India disputes) as such Indian jurisdiction is not applicable. They have not commented on "GUILT"

2. Indian courts have been perfectly cognizable of rights of Italian Marines. They have been given bail and conditions were only put when the Italians refused to send the Marines back which is in direct violations of bail conditions and guarantee by Italian Ambassador. After Supreme court of India held Italian Ambassador accountable for violation of bail, Italy sent the marines back.

3. Indian courts have granted all recourse to defence team of Italian Marines which adopted two pronged strategy
a. They delayed and delayed the trial by continuously asking for extensions and bringing motion upon motion related to choice of investigating agency.

- This confirms that they were willing accept Indian jurisdiction or else why ask for extensions and appeal for change in investigating agency

b. After they had managed to delay the trial for two/three years they moved to UNCLOS suddenly for arbitration where they sighted that Marines should be sent back to Italy as Indian courts have not managed to complete the trial

Do you see this duplicity First delay the trial by - i sighting that you are not prepared - ii wrong investigation agency (not prosecuting agency) has investigated the case leading to completely new investigation and then ask for nullification of trial on the grounds that it has been delayed.

Despite all this Indian court has agreed for arbitration and have sent one of the Marines back to Italy on humanitarian grounds.

The trial needs to run to completion, and the Marines needs to give a good explanation.

 

[Nimitam]

India only has sovereignity over territorial waters, not over EEZ.
In the EEZ, International Laws apply.
Not sure they grant India any rights to ask for information.

At court, if they have not followed the rules, that will be detrimental to their cause.

Wrong.

In the EEZ, India has Sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring, exploiting, conserving and managing natural resources, whether living and nonliving, of the seabed and subsoil and the superjacent waters and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;

It also has Jurisdiction as provided for in international and domestic laws with regard to the establishment and use of artificial islands, installations, and structures, marine scientific research, and the protection and preservation of the marine environment.

All Other rights and duties provided for under international and domestic laws.

This include granting passage rights on request to foreign warship. Similarly any foreign vessel who carry armed guards are required to get PANS or they can and will be considered Pirates ships themselves.

Consider the fact that Enrica Lexie did not get the requierd PANS from the GoI and disclosed they were carrying armed men, GoI is well within its right to declare them Pirates or TERRORISTS.

You should be grateful that India was gracious enough to not try the marines as Terrorists which would have put Italy as a state sponsor of Terrorism.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Wrong.

In the EEZ, India has Sovereign rights for the purpose of exploring, exploiting, conserving and managing natural resources, whether living and nonliving, of the seabed and subsoil and the superjacent waters and with regard to other activities for the economic exploitation and exploration of the zone, such as the production of energy from the water, currents and winds;

It also has Jurisdiction as provided for in international and domestic laws with regard to the establishment and use of artificial islands, installations, and structures, marine scientific research, and the protection and preservation of the marine environment.

All Other rights and duties provided for under international and domestic laws.

This include granting passage rights on request to foreign warship. Similarly any foreign vessel who carry armed guards are required to get PANS or they can and will be considered Pirates ships themselves.

Consider the fact that Enrica Lexie did not get the requierd PANS from the GoI and disclosed they were carrying armed men, GoI is well within its right to declare them Pirates or TERRORISTS.

You should be grateful that India was gracious enough to not try the marines as Terrorists which would have put Italy as a state sponsor of Terrorism.

Please point to the chapter granting India that right.

 

[Nimitam]

Please point to the chapter granting India that right.

which specific right ?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

which specific right ?

Right to request PANS.

 

[Nimitam]

Right to request PANS.

Read IMO Resolution A.1044(27) .

section 8 (d)

"in their capacity as port or coastal States, if applicable and taking into account the recommendations and guidance developed by the Organization, promulgate their national policy on the embarkation, disembarkation and carriage of privately contracted armed security personnel and of the firearms, ammunition and security-related equipment to be used by such security personnel on board ships; to make known such policies and procedures to the shipping industry, the providers of privately contracted armed security personnel and all Member Governments in order to enable flag States to act accordingly; and to provide relevant information to the Organization"


Based on that, GoI has issued guideline SR-13020/6/2009-MG(pt) dated 29 August 2011.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Read IMO Resolution A.1044(27) .

section 8 (d)

"in their capacity as port or coastal States, if applicable and taking into account the recommendations and guidance developed by the Organization, promulgate their national policy on the embarkation, disembarkation and carriage of privately contracted armed security personnel and of the firearms, ammunition and security-related equipment to be used by such security personnel on board ships; to make known such policies and procedures to the shipping industry, the providers of privately contracted armed security personnel and all Member Governments in order to enable flag States to act accordingly; and to provide relevant information to the Organization"


Based on that, GoI has issued guideline SR-13020/6/2009-MG(pt) dated 29 August 2011.

That says that PANS should be implemented,
but does not give any specific rights to do so outside the territorial waters of India.

 

[Nimitam]

That says that PANS should be implemented,
but does not give any specific rights to do so outside the territorial waters of India.

The Murder occurred 20 nautical miles from the coast of Kerala.

Upto 24 n. miles is contiguous zone of India and that means the crime happened inside the territorial waters of India and in zone where by convention Indian law can be implemented. gives Indian specific rights to implement the PANS.

In fact the 90th session of IMO's Maritime Safety Commission stated that "Ship entering the territorial sea and/or port of a state are subject to that Sates Legislation."

Only right of innocent passage exist, not right to bear arms and ammunition which an pose a danger to the state and its citizen.

Many nations have similar laws to protect it citizens and its sovereignty. India is just one of them.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

The Murder occurred 20 nautical miles from the coast of Kerala.

Upto 24 n. miles is contiguous zone of India and that means the crime happened inside the territorial waters of India and in zone where by convention Indian law can be implemented. gives Indian specific rights to implement the PANS.

In fact the 90th session of IMO's Maritime Safety Commission stated that "Ship entering the territorial sea and/or port of a state are subject to that Sates Legislation."

Only right of innocent passage exist, not right to bear arms and ammunition which an pose a danger to the state and its citizen.

Many nations have similar laws to protect it citizens and its sovereignty. India is just one of them.

Territorial waters is 12 nm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

 

[Nimitam]

Territorial waters is 12 nm.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_waters

Which is why I specifically said Contiguous Zone which is upto 24 nautical mile from the coast and ALL state laws and regulations extend up to this zone. The highlighted part says Territorial 'sea' not zone, and that includes Contiguous zone.

You are clutching at straws and nit picking.

 

[Nimitam]

Kerala, wake up. India is not your country! India is a fake country created by the British and carried on by the so called high caste hindus. The nonsense which is India will always make sure that the southern people are always kept under the rule of the north! WAKE UP!! They call you southern people shudras! Don't you have any self respect. If those fishermen were high caste then things would have turned out very differently. Since the fishermen are christian dalit converts, the northerners(who invented this crazy good for nothing joke of a religion) dont care about you. They are using this god forsaken religion to dominate you both culturally and politically. WAKE UP!

...........

Did you know Jinnah came from a family of fishermen ? Maybe that is why he created pakistan

 

[Nilgiri]

Kerala, wake up. India is not your country! India is a fake country created by the British and carried on by the so called high caste hindus. The nonsense which is India will always make sure that the southern people are always kept under the rule of the north! WAKE UP!! They call you southern people shudras! Don't you have any self respect. If those fishermen were high caste then things would have turned out very differently. Since the fishermen are christian dalit converts, the northerners(who invented this crazy good for nothing joke of a religion) dont care about you. They are using this god forsaken religion to dominate you both culturally and politically. WAKE UP!

Here is the thread you should post your message in:

https://defence.pk/threads/kerala-corner.99978/

Let's see what response you get

 

[Nimitam]

Here is the thread you should post your message in:

https://defence.pk/threads/kerala-corner.99978/

Let's see what response you get

u'r a mallu too ? I thought you were tamil.