'We trusted the government to fight for us': Kerala fishermen disappointed in Italian marines case

[A.P. Richelieu]

Ok. I will grant you that.

But as I said, once the marine goes back, he is not coming back either way. Even if the tribunal finds India has jurisdiction. So this whole thing is pointless.

They have been to Italy before and the Italian Prime Minister decided they have to go back to India.

 

[Nimitam]

They have been to Italy before and the Italian Prime Minister decided they have to go back to India.

Wrong.

One of the marine, Massimiliano Latorre was given bail by the SC and allowed to return to Italy. He has since then refused to return to India.

 

[Gufi]

A human being has died and those who killed him must be answerable... That is basic law, does not matter where or what the other person was thinking.... Maybe it can be pleaded as manslaughter, but you can not claim self defence against fishermen.... Plain and simple human life matters

 

[Nimitam]

Funny, according to this Indian Newspaper he is released on bail, and inside the Italian Embassy in India.

Do you even read your own link ?


This is from your own link ,

" While Latorre is already back home on health grounds, Italy has been seeking the return of Girone also."

Still think it is funny ?

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

A human being has died and those who killed him must be answerable... That is basic law, does not matter where or what the other person was thinking.... Maybe it can be pleaded as manslaughter, but you can not claim self defence against fishermen.... Plain and simple human life matters

The complete story needs to be investigated. There is very little public info available about the incident.
Why was the Indian ship so close?
Was the Indian ship following the ship?

There has been reports about U.S. Army troopers shooting for fun from helicopters,
so that cannot be ruled out, but the natural explanation would be that the Indian vessel
came up close, a warning shot was fired, and when that was ignored, a few shots were directed at the
vessel, killing two.

Until answers are given, it is very hard to make any judgement.

 

[Nimitam]

The complete story needs to be investigated. There is very little public info available about the incident.
Why was the Indian ship so close?
Was the Indian ship following the ship?

There has been reports about U.S. Army troopers shooting for fun from helicopters,
so that cannot be ruled out, but the natural explanation would be that the Indian vessel
came up close, a warning shot was fired, and when that was ignored, a few shots were directed at the
vessel, killing two.

Until answers are given, it is very hard to make any judgement.

There is plenty of public Info in India. maybe not in the EU.


So let me see if I can understand you correctly,

You ASSUME the following,

1. The Fishing Boat came up close to the Ship
2. The Ship first fired warning shots
3. The fishermen Ignored warning shots
4. The Marines then shot the fishermen

And all this ASSUMPTION is based on the fact that the marines were WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS

I would have called you a Racist, but that seems unnecessary now.


How about THIS story ? As told by the survivors of that boat.

1. Fishing boat was going about their business
2. Fishermen heard loud noise and saw that two of their men were bleeding and dead
3. They called for help, Ship ignored their plea.
4. They rush back home.


But given that this is the story given by POOR BROWN INDIANS, it must be false ........ the white man is always right. Your Racism and prejudice is so deep rooted that it comes out and you don't even realize it. Amazing.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Do you even read your own link ?


This is from your own link ,

" While Latorre is already back home on health grounds, Italy has been seeking the return of Girone also."

Still think it is funny ?

You are right, so I deleted the post.

 

[Nimitam]

You are right, so I deleted the post.

You deleted the wrong post.

You should have deleted the one where you made Racist observations and assumptions.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

There is plenty of public Info in India. maybe not in the EU.


So let me see if I can understand you correctly,

You ASSUME the following,

1. The Fishing Boat came up close to the Ship
2. The Ship first fired warning shots
3. The fishermen Ignored warning shots
4. The Marines then shot the fishermen

And all this ASSUMPTION is based on the fact that the marines were WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS

I would have called you a Racist, but that seems unnecessary now.


How about THIS story ? As told by the survivors of that boat.

1. Fishing boat was going about their business
2. Fishermen heard loud noise and saw that two of their men were bleeding and dead
3. They called for help, Ship ignored their plea.
4. They rush back home.


But given that this is the story given by POOR BROWN INDIANS, it must be false ........ the white man is always right. Your Racism and prejudice is so deep rooted that it comes out and you don't even realize it. Amazing.

I don't rule out anything.
I already pointed out that soldiers sometimes commit crimes.

I described the situation where the soldiers were doing things by the book.
I have not seen the story as told by the Italian Marines.
When stories differ, then there is someone lying, and facts have to be found.

Witnesses that are involved in the incident, are inherently less reliable.
If it happened in the first way, the Indians would not admit ut.
If it happened the way the Indian Crew described, then the Italian Marines would like
to change the story...

To believe that POOR BROWN INDIANS must be right over WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS is also Racist.

 

[Nimitam]

I don't rule out anything.
I already pointed out that soldiers sometimes commit crimes.

I described the situation where the soldiers were doing things by the book.
I have not seen the story as told by the Italian Marines.
When stories differ, then there is someone lying, and facts have to be found.

Witnesses that are involved in the incident, are inherently less reliable.
If it happened in the first way, the Indians would not admit ut.
If it happened the way the Indian Crew described, then the Italian Marines would like
to change the story...

To believe that POOR BROWN INDIANS must be right over WHITE CHRISTIAN EUROPEANS is also Racist.

Correction, you MENTIONED soldiers shooting unarmed men but then ruled it out. It was an attempt at pretending to be neutral while expressing an prejudiced opinion.

The usual practice is to believe the unarmed VICTIM rather than believe the ARMED Perpetrators.

You chose to believe the Perpetrators were innocent, rather than the victim. That itself shows bad faith. Worse still you refuse to acknowledge this fact.

If they had gone by the book, nobody would have been shot and the marines would not have been facing trial. That would have been obvious to a neutral observer.

Indians have no ulterior agenda here. We are not at war with Italy. Indians were never perpetrators of Racism. There is no reason for an Indian to lie.

Same is not true for Italy.They have every reason to Lie. They have a history as a colonial power. From Libya to Ethiopia to Albania. They have a history of racism.

This again should have been obvious to a neutral observer. Which against proves your Prejudice.

Finally I have only given words to your unsaid racism. You implied it, and I have ripped away that flimsy cover and have given voice to what you implied. That is not Racism. That is called Exposing Racism. Fighting it.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Correction, you MENTIONED soldiers shooting unarmed men but then ruled it out. It was an attempt at pretending to be neutral while expressing an prejudiced opinion.

The usual practice is to believe the unarmed VICTIM rather than believe the ARMED Perpetrators.

You chose to believe the Perpetrators were innocent, rather than the victim. That itself shows bad faith. Worse still you refuse to acknowledge this fact.

If they had gone by the book, nobody would have been shot and the marines would not have been facing trial. That would have been obvious to a neutral observer.

Indians have no ulterior agenda here. We are not at war with Italy. Indians were never perpetrators of Racism. There is no reason for an Indian to lie.

Same is not true for Italy.They have every reason to Lie. They have a history as a colonial power. From Libya to Ethiopia to Albania. They have a history of racism.

This again should have been obvious to a neutral observer. Which against proves your Prejudice.

Finally I have only given words to your unsaid racism. You implied it, and I have ripped away that flimsy cover and have given voice to what you implied. That is not Racism. That is called Exposing Racism. Fighting it.

The usual practice is to analyze the facts after all stories have been told.
A crime needs to be proved, before a conviction.

If the Indians were trying to board the boat to steal something, they have a lot of reasons to lie.

I wrote:
"There has been reports about U.S. Army troopers shooting for fun from helicopters, so that cannot be ruled out"

That means that this is an alternative that must be considered.
I am not putting blame anywhere at this point and Your comments about Racism is unwarranted.
You are ruling out alternatives which puts blame on the Indian side, which is Racism.

The Indian "cast" system is similar to Racism.

 

[Nimitam]

The usual practice is to analyze the facts after all stories have been told.
A crime needs to be proved, before a conviction.

All stories HAVE been told, only you have not bothered to hear them. Especially the Indian side.

Crime need to be proved Only in the court, not outside the court and certainly not in forums.

If the Indians were trying to board the boat to steal something, they have a lot of reasons to lie.

If they were trying to board then they would also have no reason to go to the police and coast guard. No reason to call the media and no reason to involve the govt.

That is how innocent people behave, not pirates.

I wrote:
"There has been reports about U.S. Army troopers shooting for fun from helicopters, so that cannot be ruled out"

That means that this is an alternative that must be considered.
I am not putting blame anywhere at this point and Your comments about Racism is unwarranted.
You are ruling out alternatives which puts blame on the Indian side, which is Racism.

The Indian "cast" system is similar to Racism.

As I said, you mentioned it only to rule it out by making it sound improbable.

You ARE attempting to DEFLECT from the criminal actions of the marines and caste aspirations on the poor fishermen.

My comment about Racism is spot on as explained in detail.

Finally,

1. Indian "caste" has nothing to do with this topic
2. Indian "caste" is actually the British caste system imposed on India
3. Even if it is racist, it is non of your business. our Constitution will take care of it.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

All stories HAVE been told, only you have not bothered to hear them. Especially the Indian side.

Crime need to be proved Only in the court, not outside the court and certainly not in forums.

If they were trying to board then they would also have no reason to go to the police and coast guard. No reason to call the media and no reason to involve the govt.

That is how innocent people behave, not pirates.

As I said, you mentioned it only to rule it out by making it sound improbable.

You ARE attempting to DEFLECT from the criminal actions of the marines and caste aspirations on the poor fishermen.

My comment about Racism is spot on as explained in detail.

Finally,

1. Indian "caste" has nothing to do with this topic
2. Indian "caste" is actually the British caste system imposed on India
3. Even if it is racist, it is non of your business. our Constitution will take care of it.

I have read a number if explanations of what happened, and none have presented any detailed statement
from the Indian crew, and no statement whatsoever from the accused.
A few statements from other crew of the Italian vessel.

Crime needs to be proven in court.
The forum allows speculations on what really happened.
That involves exploring as many theories as possible, and compare with evidence
to rule out theories until,only the truth remains.

It is not normal behaviour of professional soldiers of ANY nation to take random pot shots of civilian vessels.
That makes it improbable. An improbable theory THAT REMAINS AN ALTERNATIVE.
Like any other theory, it needs to be proved or disproved.

Another theory is that the Indian Crew saw an impressive ship coming close, they changed course
to have a closer look, with or without intention to rob/board.
The change of course was noticed by the Italian Marines which, when the Indian vessel was
50 meters from the Italian ship fired warning shots.
The Indians went into shock, and did nothing except continuing to stay beside the Italian ship,
causing the Italian Marines to believe they were going to attack, so they fired the deadly shots.

When You claim that Indians are never racist, you certainly open up the subject.
Even if the British established it, it still exists, almost 70 years after the Independence.
If You don't want to discuss it, just withdraw the claim.

 

[Nimitam]

I have read a number if explanations of what happened, and none have presented any detailed statement
from the Indian crew, and no statement whatsoever from the accused.
A few statements from other crew of the Italian vessel.

Not a very convenient excuse, This is the statement of the Freddie Louis, captain of the Fishing boat St. Antony.

The incident occurred at approximately 16:30 IST (UTC+05:30, 2:30 PM, Rome time) when the fishing boat was returning from a fishing expedition and happened within the Indian Contiguous Zone around 20.5 nautical miles off the coast of Kerala.

The captain and crew said that their boat was returning from their fishing expedition and was waiting for the tanker to pass when the security men on board the tanker fired at the boat “without provocation”. According to him, the firing lasted for two minutes, killing driver Gelastine immediately and injuring Ajesh Binki; soon after the trawler steered out of the firing range, Binki succumbed to injuries.

The fishermen rushed back to India with their injured (dead) and reached Kochi late night. The two victims were immediately taken to the hospital where they were declared dead on arrival. Later in the day the bodies were taken to the Medical College Hospital in Thiruvananthapuram after completing the initial legal formalities.

Meanwhile the Enrica Lexie continued on its way and DID NOT REPORT the incident.

The Police was informed and a case of Murder was filed. Senior police officials from the Mattancherry, Fort Kochi police stations along with the Coastguard officials went in a Coastguard vessel to the Italian ship.

The Coast Guard launched a Dornier to search for and locate Enrica Lexie. Two ships, ICGS Samar and ICGS Lakshmibai, were sailed to intercept her. They found the ship about 39 nm from the site of the incident. It was at this time, after being intercepted by the Indian Coast Guard, that Enrica Lexie first reported the incident and described it as an attempted pirate attack.

This is what the Indian Investigators found,

1. No report regarding the suspected ‘piracy’ incident was made by the ship when it occurred. The vessel sent a report by e-mail to her owners only at about 1917 IST, after interception by the Indian Coast Guard. International procedure requires that the vessel report piracy events or attempts immediately to the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre. No report was made at the time of the incident.

2. No arms or signs thereof were found on St Antony.

3. Marks of 15 bullets were found on St Antony, while two bullets were recovered from the bodies. A total of 20 bullets were fired. This would indicate that the boat was the target.

4. There is no evidence by way of bullet marks to indicate that Enrica Lexie had been fired upon by the trawler.

5. The maximum speed of St Antony was 8 knots, as compared to more than 14 for Enrica Lexie. There was no question of the trawler catching Enrica Lexie if the ship took avoiding action. In accordance the IRPCS, the trawler had the right of way and it was for Enrica Lexie to take avoiding action to ensure she did not collide with the trawler.

6. Umberto Vitelli, the Captain of Enrica Lexie, in his deposition to Indian investigators has said, “When they (the marines) were standing to starboard with their weapons, I never thought they would start to fire”. He adds that it was only after he heard gunshots that he increased speed, sounded the foghorn and the general alarm.

7. The ship’s Chief Officer told Kerala police that he used binoculars and did not see any person with weapons in the boat.

8. India’s Ministry of Shipping guideline SR-13020/6/2009-MG(pt) dated 29 August 2011 require commercial merchant vessels with PCASPs (Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel) and VPDs (Vessel Protection Detachments) to obtain a Pre-Arrival Notification for Security (PANS) prior to entrance and transit through the Indian EEZ or the Indian Search and Rescue Region (ISRR). Enrica Lexie did not have PANS.

9. Enrica Lexie failed to archive data from the ship’s Voyage Data Recorder (the ship’s black box) as required by international regulations. International maritime rules insist that in the event of any incident, the ship’s master is to lock VDR data and surrender it to investigation officials immediately after berthing the vessel at the nearest port.

Crime needs to be proven in court.
The forum allows speculations on what really happened.
That involves exploring as many theories as possible, and compare with evidence
to rule out theories until,only the truth remains.

There is NOTHING to speculate. This was COLD BLOODED MURDER. You are however, free to speculate and worship them as heroes.

It is not normal behaviour of professional soldiers of ANY nation to take random pot shots of civilian vessels.
That makes it improbable. An improbable theory THAT REMAINS AN ALTERNATIVE.
Like any other theory, it needs to be proved or disproved.

I agree, this is NOT Normal behaviour for an Indian.

But from an European, I will not venture to say what is normal. Especially given your history with Colonialism, Racism and Exploitation and scant regard for human life in the rest of the world.

Another theory is that the Indian Crew saw an impressive ship coming close, they changed course
to have a closer look, with or without intention to rob/board.
The change of course was noticed by the Italian Marines which, when the Indian vessel was
50 meters from the Italian ship fired warning shots.
The Indians went into shock, and did nothing except continuing to stay beside the Italian ship,
causing the Italian Marines to believe they were going to attack, so they fired the deadly shots.

You can spin all the Lies and Misdirection you want, NO ONE in India is going to buy it.

I have provided a 9 point proof of guilt. Feel free to disregard and dismiss it.

When You claim that Indians are never racist, you certainly open up the subject.
Even if the British established it, it still exists, almost 70 years after the Independence.
If You don't want to discuss it, just withdraw the claim.

I called YOU a Racist, you reply back by saying 1.2 Billion Indians are Racist

If anything, it only confirms that you are a Racist. Not that it required any more confirmation.

I certainly don't want to discuss it as it does not concern you. But I will say this, 60 years of Independence is not enough to wash away the tyranny of the British.

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

Not a very convenient excuse, This is the statement of the Freddie Louis, captain of the Fishing boat St. Antony.

The incident occurred at approximately 16:30 IST (UTC+05:30, 2:30 PM, Rome time) when the fishing boat was returning from a fishing expedition and happened within the Indian Contiguous Zone around 20.5 nautical miles off the coast of Kerala.

The captain and crew said that their boat was returning from their fishing expedition and was waiting for the tanker to pass when the security men on board the tanker fired at the boat “without provocation”. According to him, the firing lasted for two minutes, killing driver Gelastine immediately and injuring Ajesh Binki; soon after the trawler steered out of the firing range, Binki succumbed to injuries.

The fishermen rushed back to India with their injured (dead) and reached Kochi late night. The two victims were immediately taken to the hospital where they were declared dead on arrival. Later in the day the bodies were taken to the Medical College Hospital in Thiruvananthapuram after completing the initial legal formalities.

Meanwhile the Enrica Lexie continued on its way and DID NOT REPORT the incident.

The Police was informed and a case of Murder was filed. Senior police officials from the Mattancherry, Fort Kochi police stations along with the Coastguard officials went in a Coastguard vessel to the Italian ship.

The Coast Guard launched a Dornier to search for and locate Enrica Lexie. Two ships, ICGS Samar and ICGS Lakshmibai, were sailed to intercept her. They found the ship about 39 nm from the site of the incident. It was at this time, after being intercepted by the Indian Coast Guard, that Enrica Lexie first reported the incident and described it as an attempted pirate attack.

This is what the Indian Investigators found,

1. No report regarding the suspected ‘piracy’ incident was made by the ship when it occurred. The vessel sent a report by e-mail to her owners only at about 1917 IST, after interception by the Indian Coast Guard. International procedure requires that the vessel report piracy events or attempts immediately to the Maritime Rescue Coordination Centre. No report was made at the time of the incident.

2. No arms or signs thereof were found on St Antony.

3. Marks of 15 bullets were found on St Antony, while two bullets were recovered from the bodies. A total of 20 bullets were fired. This would indicate that the boat was the target.

4. There is no evidence by way of bullet marks to indicate that Enrica Lexie had been fired upon by the trawler.

5. The maximum speed of St Antony was 8 knots, as compared to more than 14 for Enrica Lexie. There was no question of the trawler catching Enrica Lexie if the ship took avoiding action. In accordance the IRPCS, the trawler had the right of way and it was for Enrica Lexie to take avoiding action to ensure she did not collide with the trawler.

6. Umberto Vitelli, the Captain of Enrica Lexie, in his deposition to Indian investigators has said, “When they (the marines) were standing to starboard with their weapons, I never thought they would start to fire”. He adds that it was only after he heard gunshots that he increased speed, sounded the foghorn and the general alarm.

7. The ship’s Chief Officer told Kerala police that he used binoculars and did not see any person with weapons in the boat.

8. India’s Ministry of Shipping guideline SR-13020/6/2009-MG(pt) dated 29 August 2011 require commercial merchant vessels with PCASPs (Privately Contracted Armed Security Personnel) and VPDs (Vessel Protection Detachments) to obtain a Pre-Arrival Notification for Security (PANS) prior to entrance and transit through the Indian EEZ or the Indian Search and Rescue Region (ISRR). Enrica Lexie did not have PANS.

9. Enrica Lexie failed to archive data from the ship’s Voyage Data Recorder (the ship’s black box) as required by international regulations. International maritime rules insist that in the event of any incident, the ship’s master is to lock VDR data and surrender it to investigation officials immediately after berthing the vessel at the nearest port.




There is NOTHING to speculate. This was COLD BLOODED MURDER. You are however, free to speculate and worship them as heroes.



I agree, this is NOT Normal behaviour for an Indian.

But from an European, I will not venture to say what is normal. Especially given your history with Colonialism, Racism and Exploitation and scant regard for human life in the rest of the world.



You can spin all the Lies and Misdirection you want, NO ONE in India is going to buy it.

I have provided a 9 point proof of guilt. Feel free to disregard and dismiss it.



I called YOU a Racist, you reply back by saying 1.2 Billion Indians are Racist

If anything, it only confirms that you are a Racist. Not that it required any more confirmation.

I certainly don't want to discuss it as it does not concern you. But I will say this, 60 years of Independence is not enough to wash away the tyranny of the British.

If everyone agrees that the St Anthony was dead in the water, and the Enrica Lexia was passing close by,
then this certainly not a situation where a professional soldier would take any action.
A boat with maximum speed of 8 knots is certainly not suitable for piracy.
Not reporting is making the case worse for the Italians.