We need to talk about Indians and their "fakeness" in regards to Turkey, Islam, Japan and the West

[TheSolution]

The reason is simple. The ones that are more interested to be called as Turk Europeans, which are there atheists secular ones , don’t want that Islamic/Arabic stereotype on them. They pretend live as sophisticated human beings in there daily lives and most are not even Muslim. This Turkish people want to be called European because otherwise are only be called Asian, or Arabs camel riders. I’ve only pointed on this minority who I really believe are the trouble makers here not all of turkey maybe I’m wrong I don’t know.

I feel like this is at least half the population, from all the Turks I've met personally they were extremely secular, a lot actually hated Islam.

I've only met Islamic Turks online. Unless you're on Reddit.

 

[Naofumi]

Actually, the "study" is not study but a book. It was never peer reviewed but published for general consumption. So it had not much standing in the first place.

It does not matter for my point anyways, I used the word study because you used it here (same context) :

countries they study

But since you highlighted this anyways, here are my two cents - peer review is a sensitive subject in postmodern political correct science especially things about race. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grievance_studies_affair also important to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis#In_psychology. Psychology/Sociology/Anthropology and other humanities are not exact sciences and there will always be a possibility of dispute in them. When surrounding concepts like race, there is a word of caution exercised in academia. Anyways, I didn't vouch for Lynn to be completely correct but I am against the idea of discarding any discussion around it as political incorrectness when there is mounting evidence on the other side.

There has been only one single PISA participation from India. In 2009. That too in two states. Himachal and Tamil Nadu. India has participated in TIMSS in 2003 IIRC. Ofcourse, in both these tests, Indian students underperformed. Now comparing this Pakistan's students, I do not know what will be the outcome. Pakistan has only participated in TIMSS in 2019 IIRC. It got a score of 328 for grade 4. India's score for 2003 were 397. Both were below the benchmark of 400.

Simply put, enough data to compare average IQ in India or Pakistan is not there.

First Note: My comment did not mentioned any supposed superiority of Pakistanis, as a matter of fact I said:

Regarding Pakistan's underachievements, it could be due to highly religious culture rather than an inadequacy in IQ compared to India.

Which means I acknowledged that Pakistan is a laggard even when compared to India, I don't if you wilfully ignored this or not but since this clear, I will not address any Pakistan related points further. Also, you did not gave any interpretation regarding the abysmal performance other than a comparison with Pakistan so I will leave this point here.

Actually, on that front India has done much much better than Pakistan and in general as well (https://www.imo-official.org/year_country_r.aspx?year=2021). For instance India has ranked above likes of Denmark, France, Sweden... putting a hole in the entire IQ argument... atleast at the very top level.

IMO:
Pakistan (since 2005) : 7 Bronze and 1 Silver
India (in 2021 and 2020 alone): 2 Golds, 5 Silvers and 3 bronze)

International Mathematical Olympiad International Mathematical Olympiad
Internation physics olympiad (IPO : https://ipho-unofficial.org/timeline/2017/country)
India ranked 5th. 4 gold 1 silver.
Pakistan : 0 medals
I am discounting 2019, 2018 and 2021 ones because in each year either Pakistan was missing or India.
Feel free to go in the history as well.

International Chemistry Olympiad:

IChO: List of Dates

www.icho-official.org

India : 2 Gold 2 Silver
Pakistan : 0 medals

Again you can look at history too. India has performed much above Pakistan.

Thanks for the data actually.

Actually, on that front India has done much much better than Pakistan and in general as well (https://www.imo-official.org/year_country_r.aspx?year=2021). For instance India has ranked above likes of Denmark, France, Sweden... putting a hole in the entire IQ argument... atleast at the very top level.

This is incorrect to say the least. Except France, the listed nations have much much smaller population than India. If you how bell-curve works, then a higher population gives you larger curve hence you can go into extreme tails of the curve more easily - to explain more easily top 0.00003% of Denmark is actually 1.74 persons - there does not exist any Danish person with 4 to 5 standard deviation above Danish mean and for India that is nearly 400 individuals - larger population have a drastic advantage, not to mention that real life IQ works as a fat-tailed distribution hence magnifying this effect. Thus, If India's average would be equivalent to Denmark or say France it should at the top with China and not being there is underperformance. Also, I don't understand what you mean by "atleast at the very top level." - I am talking about averages here as hinted in the comment :

this explains the rigid social structures, lack of social discipline and superstitious societies.

Calculations referred above:
Percentage of people between 4th and 5th SD: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=1/2(1+erf(5/sqrt(2)))-1/2(1+erf(4/sqrt(2)))
Denmark's population between 4th and 5th SD .0000003*5800000 = 1.74 ~ 2
India's population between 4th and 5th SD .0000003*1300000000 = 390 ~ 400
Feel free to point any errors in calculations (done hastily) but I feel any errors should not change the main argument.

IMO:
Pakistan (since 2005) : 7 Bronze and 1 Silver
India (in 2021 and 2020 alone): 2 Golds, 5 Silvers and 3 bronze)

International Mathematical Olympiad International Mathematical Olympiad
Internation physics olympiad (IPO : https://ipho-unofficial.org/timeline/2017/country)
India ranked 5th. 4 gold 1 silver.
Pakistan : 0 medals
I am discounting 2019, 2018 and 2021 ones because in each year either Pakistan was missing or India.
Feel free to go in the history as well.

International Chemistry Olympiad:

IChO: List of Dates

www.icho-official.org

India : 2 Gold 2 Silver
Pakistan : 0 medals

Again you can look at history too. India has performed much above Pakistan.

While IPO and IChO record of India is great, India sucks at IMO. Advanced mathematics is the most g-factor loaded filed in exact sciences (actually is the only exact science but that's besides the point) and it is impossible to compensate the lack of raw talent with hard work - anecdotal examples - Terence Tao, Von Neumann etc also there was a study regarding this but can not find it now. This strengthens my point - For IMO, India doesn't lack infrastructure as otherwise IPO and IChO records should be worse, the lacking part is something India as a nation can not control - g-factor of average population. Another case in point is the Indian Americans and their participation in American IMO team as opposed East Asian Americans, despite Indians outperforming Chinese in earnings, not many Indians have participated in IMO - a phenomenon explained by the above hypothesis.
Still I would not call this as my final beliefs, I was just elaborating that regardless of Richard Lynn, there are unexplained cues that points to the same general direction.

 

[Maula Jatt]

There are a couple things you should be aware before coming to a judgment.

1. The German-Turkish relationship is almost one thousand years old and dates back to the Holy Roman Empire.

Don't you worry about the Turko-German friendship.


"The love between Turk and Germans is so old that this love bond will never be broken."

- Otto v. Bismarck

2. Whatever problem might be in the German-Turkish community, since the arrival of Syrians, Africans and South Asians, the whole perception of Turks has changed drastically. The Germans quickly realized that Turks were a blessing in disguise.

3. Don't you get it? We're not talking about a common Pakistani citizen in Islamabad, Karachi or Lahore. These people are criminals by definition of law upon their illegal arrival in Turkey. People don't want them, this is not a xenophobic outburst of people on the internet. It's a legit demand that is shared by the overwhelming majority of Turkish people.

Show me one country on this planet that would accept this kind of disrespect for its borders. If you have a legal visa, be my guest! Come, celebrate, eat and enjoy.

What is wrong with this opinion? Why is it racist?

-kick them out, protecting borders is your responsibility,

your issue isn't your opinion - no one in Thier sane mind is expecting you to welcome them, we are not idiots
All we are saying is either stop them at the border in the first place or let em through to Europe like they have been going for decades, your own underworld mafias accommodate these people

I don't know what do you even expect from GOP or anyone here?


- we have 2.5 million Bangladeshis currently living, on top of that rohingyas in Thier 100,000s
Peak Afghan refugees of 8 million, 1947 migration created a whole new ethnic group from scratch and there was plenty of unsavory stuff going on because of all these groups

We know issues with migrants way more than any other country, we have been a hub of migrations for 100s of years

Also
I just want to know what's different this time around?

Growing up I have always grown up hearing of people going to Europe with route

Why is it that only now people are saying that's it? Cause Europe is tightening down? Turkey is going through economic issues and this is becoming a way to lash out?

Or migrants are increasing more than usual?

 

[INS_Vikrant]

There are a couple things you should be aware before coming to a judgment.

1. The German-Turkish relationship is almost one thousand years old and dates back to the Holy Roman Empire.

Don't you worry about the Turko-German friendship.


"The love between Turk and Germans is so old that this love bond will never be broken."

- Otto v. Bismarck

This is a bit off topic but werent Germans (Habsburg Holy Roman Empire) and Turks (Ottoman Empire) were primary enemies of each other historically?

 

[lastofthepatriots]

This is a bit off topic but werent Germans (Habsburg Holy Roman Empire) and Turks (Ottoman Empire) were primary enemies of each other historically?

They were. But then they had sex.

 

[Maula Jatt]

You know what?
since European doongi ride is part of our blood, culture, way of life

I suggest we give instructions to human trafficking mafias to go through CAR instead of Iran, turkey
That's the only solution- Change the route to Europe- innovate

More dangerous is North Africa and catch a boat to Europe

Cause I don't see people would stop going unless they're literally machine gunned down

 

[Black Vigo]

The German-Turkish relationship is almost one thousand years old and dates back to the Holy Roman Empire.

Maybe, I don't know and I don't really care either (No Offense)

Don't you worry about the Turko-German friendship.

I don't worry because I don't really care I just used it as an example to show your absurd analogy

"The love between Turks and Germans is so old that this love bond will never be broken."

- Otto v. Bismarck

Sorry to burst your bubble but he never said such a thing (People make such words up all the time)

2. Whatever problem might be in the German-Turkish community, since the arrival of Syrians, Africans and South Asians, the whole perception of Turks has changed drastically. The Germans quickly realized that Turks were a blessing in disguise.

Sure buddy whatever helps you sleep at night it is a known fact that the Kemalist Turks (not others) have the urge to be accepted by whites so its no wonder you'll go as far as criticize Islam and Muslims for that but the funny thing is the whites don't even consider you as their equal but on the contrary they think of you as an inferior being

3. Don't you get it? We're not talking about a common Pakistani citizen in Islamabad, Karachi or Lahore. These people are criminals by definition of law upon their illegal arrival in Turkey. People don't want them, this is not a xenophobic outburst of Turks on the internet. It's a legit demand that is shared by the overwhelming majority of Turkish people.

And where did I say it's not a legit demand? Where did I say turks are wrong for this? Where did I say I blame Turks? I literally said it is your country and your internal matter do whatever you want just don't criticize my country and Islam that's the only issue I have

Show me one country on this planet that would accept this kind of disrespect for its borders. If you have a legal visa, be my guest! Come, celebrate, eat and enjoy.

What is wrong with this opinion? Why is it racist?

None except Pakistan with illegal Afghans entering our borders and the authorities are sleeping like logs
and secondly no thanks, the way Turks disrespect my country and Islam I'm fine where I am but thanks for the offer regardless I appreciate it

lastly like I said before Turkey belongs to Turks they can do whatever they want in their own country I only have one issue that they abuse Pakistan and tarnish Islam's image on social media when showing their anger that's all

 

[PakistaniandProud]

A certain degree of hypocrisy is part of our human nature. Religious leaders, communities and individuals in countries like Turkey and Iran are showing a similar mindset to what you have described with regards to Pakistan.

This kind of insincerity of self-declared Hyper-Muslims is not a Pakistani specificum, though, in your case it's much more severe. Many Pakistanis try to emulate the Arabian oil-rich societies which culminates in ridiculous ancestry claims sometimes. The problem is that if you don't have an endless stream of US-Dollars providing you with unparalleled wealth to cover your stone age mentality, you're pretty much going to look like a neanderthal in the eyes of the world.

Pakistan hasn't reached that point - yet - but it's gravitating towards something that should make us all scared of the future.

Do you

There are a couple of things you should be aware of before coming to a judgment.

1. The German-Turkish relationship is almost one thousand years old and dates back to the Holy Roman Empire.

Don't you worry about the Turko-German friendship.

"The love between Turks and Germans is so old that this love bond will never be broken."

- Otto v. Bismarck

2. Whatever problem might be in the German-Turkish community, since the arrival of Syrians, Africans and South Asians, the whole perception of Turks has changed drastically. The Germans quickly realized that Turks were a blessing in disguise.

3. Don't you get it? We're not talking about a common Pakistani citizen in Islamabad, Karachi or Lahore. These people are criminals by definition of law upon their illegal arrival in Turkey. People don't want them, this is not a xenophobic outburst of Turks on the internet. It's a legit demand that is shared by the overwhelming majority of Turkish people.

Show me one country on this planet that would accept this kind of disrespect for its borders. If you have a legal visa, be my guest! Come, celebrate, eat and enjoy.

What is wrong with this opinion? Why is it racist?

Do you honestly think the Europeans view Turkey in a positive light?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Do you


Do you honestly think the Europeans view Turkey in a positive light?

YES.

 

[ThunderCat]

A turk went as far to translate what he/she wanted to say in Urdu

https://twitter.com/x/status/1521175650014568448

All the more reason we need to get rid of this Turkic name for our language given by that Delhi poet in the 1780s. Our ancestors in Lahore and their Ghaznavid rulers called it Lashkari or Lashkari Zaban, the language of the Battalions before it was brought to Delhi.

It's quite ridiculous because this name has given Pakistani salafis the impression that it's a Turkic language rather than Indo-Aryan.

They literally believe that and use this to 'relate' themselves to Turks. It is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Madni Bappa]

Treatment of people at local Turkish restaurant towards me has changed a little bit as well

 

[PakistaniandProud]

Treatment of people at local Turkish restaurant towards me has changed a little bit as well

Could you elaborate a little more? What happened?

 

[Naofumi]

Divide these commensurately by 6 - 8 (population ratio) and please explain to me why those numbers are not reached (anywhere close) in the other large population south asian countries..... and if we should derive extreme conclusions on that (or are there again many other factors past intelligence accounting for it).

This is the crux of your hollowness of your argument.

India 8000 patents granted (not just filed) internationally (2020)...adding 1000 per year to its rate:

One thing I will point out here, you are referencing absolute numbers here, which by the nature of imbalance in population/resources are skewed towards larger nations regardless of the nature of the average populace. I also addressed this post#107. Read the whole post too.
Quoting myself :

This is incorrect to say the least. Except France, the listed nations have much much smaller population than India. If you how bell-curve works, then a higher population gives you larger curve hence you can go into extreme tails of the curve more easily - to explain more easily top 0.00003% of Denmark is actually 1.74 persons - there does not exist any Danish person with 4 to 5 standard deviation above Danish mean and for India that is nearly 400 individuals - larger population have a drastic advantage, not to mention that real life IQ works as a fat-tailed distribution hence magnifying this effect. Thus, If India's average would be equivalent to Denmark or say France it should at the top with China and not being there is underperformance. Also, I don't understand what you mean by "atleast at the very top level." - I am talking about averages here as hinted in the comment :

I will encourage you to post these number after normalisation by per capita.

Indian science output proliferating w.r.t world average increasingly (2021 given here, check the prior years as required to see the relative changes):

Quantity it is. Says nothing about quality of research. Rather look at the the breakdown of contribution in top 1% and top 0.1% of research output, that is the research that opens new avenues and require real brainpower.

India Intellectual property earnings: 1.25 billion USD (2020):

You are embarrassing yourself at this point. Compare this East Asian nations like SK, Japan, China et al. South Korea alone leaves India in ashes when compared, especially on a per-capita basis.

Was PRC similarly suddenly similarly deficient in intelligence when it was at these numbers in many cases just a few years ago?

Why don't you post the numbers for that yourself? PRC was designing their own Jets (which India has not done these decades later), founding multibillion dollar companies like Lenovo, Huawei, winning IMO repeatedly (most brain heavy competition with average required IQ exceeding 170).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenyang_J-8 - 1980

Lenovo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of countries by medal count at International Mathematical Olympiad - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

What numbers are we talking about?
Also, try to include less rants in your posts - sounds more like ad hominem rather than an actual argument.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Even the US can't ignore him now. He'll be back in a year. Plus I'm of the view that there should be no dialog with india whatsoever. I didn't like the rapprochement policy with india by imran. I did like when he sent abhinandan back black and blue.

View attachment 840860

That was disgraceful.

often too high.

NEVER too high.

 

[Joe Shearer]

A few thousand dollars more wont be able to buy you class beta.

I'm glad for your sake that it made a difference to you, beta.