" We Made It " - Voyager 1 leaves Solar sytem

[xunzi]

Did I said you said so?

The charge of 'putting words' into another's mouth is cheap to make and equally easy to bring forth to distract others from the fallacies of one's own argument. Your argument here is that somehow the US is so severely bereft of intellectual capital in the field of rocketry that only a foreigner, be he German or Chinese, could remedy.

Nice try but you are one who trying to put words in my mouth. Let stick to one subject and that is the how the USA won the Space Race and who is that one single biggest contribution to the program and that is von Braun.

I read them and probably have a better understanding of it than you do.

Take you own source, for example...

Nope you didn't. This, here, tell me you are clueless about the Space Race.

If Werner von Braun was so crucial in the field of rocketry and that if the Soviets had him the Moon landing would have been done by Soviet astronaut, then why did the Soviets leapt ahead of the US with Sputnik when the US had von Braun and so many other German engineers? What happened? The lederhosens were too tight on those guys? Too much lagers and sauerkraut?

Werner von Braun was made direct or NASA as consequence of this event. Do you know what is the primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' of any organization? From your argument, the answer is clearly 'No'.

When I was active duty, our squadron CO was a mediocre pilot but an excellent-borderline-outstanding leader/administrator. When he flew, he had no problem reducing himself to being someone else's wingman if the guy is a superior pilot. He eventually was selected 'below the zone' to full colonel. All while being a mediocre fighter pilot among fellow pilots. When general officers fly to maintain proficiency and keep their flight pay, they have to fly only a few hours a month and they fly in the rear cockpit or as a co-pilot in the right seat. Back in WW II, enlisted pilots in both German and US air forces were often element leads due to their superior flying skills regardless of their status on the ground. If the aircraft is multi-engined, the enlisted pilot is often the aircraft commander and gave orders to his officers.

The primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' is not to be a super engineer or super lawyer or super pilot or super teacher or super whatever but the guardian of the organization's mission. A school's principal is such a person. He is not expected to teach but to make sure teachers do their jobs and that they have resources available so they can do their jobs. It would help if the principal came from the teaching ranks but essentially not necessary. It was not von Braun's daily duties in NASA to dart from department to department giving engineers brilliant and unheard of technical advice and relevation gleamed from his days back in Germany. Everything he knew of rocketry from Germany, he gave to the US by the time he was made NASA's director.

NASA's accomplishments belongs to the US from Americans of all origins and ultimately their origins does not matter. If the Saturn V had problems, it was low to mid level engineers who remedied those problems, not Werner von Braun. The most he probably did was to keep leadership of issues, from budget to manpower to technical, so that the organization's mission will not be distracted when there are competing priorities from the many departments.

The kind of mythology you are trying to impart to von Braun belongs in North Korea and China. Your emphasis on von Braun's German ethnicity is nothing but a feeble attempt to downplay America's accomplishment in any way possible, worst of all tactics is through racial division.

Here is your answer...

"Despite the work on the Redstone rocket, the twelve years from 1945 to 1957 were probably some of the most frustrating for von Braun and his colleagues. In the Soviet Union, Sergei Korolev and his team of scientists and engineers plowed ahead with several new rocket designs and the Sputnik program, while the American government was not very interested in von Braun's work or views and only embarked on a very modest rocket-building program. In the meantime, the press tended to dwell on von Braun's past as a member of the SS and the slave labor used to build his V-2 rockets."

The US never took his rocket work serious until they fell behind the Soviet. And do not forget, Russia also enjoyed the technical expertise and recruitment of German rocket program scientists and engineers. I believe more German scientists and engineers capture by Soviet than the USA.

"We see the results of Wernher von Braun's work on the V-2 for the Nazis at Mittelwerk and Peenemünde, and his final activities within Germany during the last years of the Second World War, as both American and Soviet forces race to capture German rocket technology. When the Americans gain the upper hand by recovering von Braun and most of his senior staff, along with all their technical documents and much other materiel, we see Sergei Korolev's release from the Gulag to act as the Soviets' rocketry expert alongside former colleague Valentin Glushko, and how he is set to work bringing Soviet rocket technology up to date with that of von Braun, working with what material and personnel are left after von Braun's escape to the US."

Watch the video and educated yourself, myself. I don't have time to argue with you when you don't have enough knowledge on the matter.

 

[xunzi]

Did I said you said so?

The charge of 'putting words' into another's mouth is cheap to make and equally easy to bring forth to distract others from the fallacies of one's own argument. Your argument here is that somehow the US is so severely bereft of intellectual capital in the field of rocketry that only a foreigner, be he German or Chinese, could remedy.

Nice try but you are one who trying to put words in my mouth. Let stick to one subject and that is the how the USA won the Space Race and who is that one single biggest contribution to the program and that is von Braun.

I read them and probably have a better understanding of it than you do.

Take you own source, for example...

Nope you didn't. This, here, tell me you are clueless about the Space Race.

If Werner von Braun was so crucial in the field of rocketry and that if the Soviets had him the Moon landing would have been done by Soviet astronaut, then why did the Soviets leapt ahead of the US with Sputnik when the US had von Braun and so many other German engineers? What happened? The lederhosens were too tight on those guys? Too much lagers and sauerkraut?

Werner von Braun was made direct or NASA as consequence of this event. Do you know what is the primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' of any organization? From your argument, the answer is clearly 'No'.

When I was active duty, our squadron CO was a mediocre pilot but an excellent-borderline-outstanding leader/administrator. When he flew, he had no problem reducing himself to being someone else's wingman if the guy is a superior pilot. He eventually was selected 'below the zone' to full colonel. All while being a mediocre fighter pilot among fellow pilots. When general officers fly to maintain proficiency and keep their flight pay, they have to fly only a few hours a month and they fly in the rear cockpit or as a co-pilot in the right seat. Back in WW II, enlisted pilots in both German and US air forces were often element leads due to their superior flying skills regardless of their status on the ground. If the aircraft is multi-engined, the enlisted pilot is often the aircraft commander and gave orders to his officers.

The primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' is not to be a super engineer or super lawyer or super pilot or super teacher or super whatever but the guardian of the organization's mission. A school's principal is such a person. He is not expected to teach but to make sure teachers do their jobs and that they have resources available so they can do their jobs. It would help if the principal came from the teaching ranks but essentially not necessary. It was not von Braun's daily duties in NASA to dart from department to department giving engineers brilliant and unheard of technical advice and relevation gleamed from his days back in Germany. Everything he knew of rocketry from Germany, he gave to the US by the time he was made NASA's director.

NASA's accomplishments belongs to the US from Americans of all origins and ultimately their origins does not matter. If the Saturn V had problems, it was low to mid level engineers who remedied those problems, not Werner von Braun. The most he probably did was to keep leadership of issues, from budget to manpower to technical, so that the organization's mission will not be distracted when there are competing priorities from the many departments.

The kind of mythology you are trying to impart to von Braun belongs in North Korea and China. Your emphasis on von Braun's German ethnicity is nothing but a feeble attempt to downplay America's accomplishment in any way possible, worst of all tactics is through racial division.

Here is your answer...

"Despite the work on the Redstone rocket, the twelve years from 1945 to 1957 were probably some of the most frustrating for von Braun and his colleagues. In the Soviet Union, Sergei Korolev and his team of scientists and engineers plowed ahead with several new rocket designs and the Sputnik program, while the American government was not very interested in von Braun's work or views and only embarked on a very modest rocket-building program. In the meantime, the press tended to dwell on von Braun's past as a member of the SS and the slave labor used to build his V-2 rockets."

The US never took his rocket work serious until they fell behind the Soviet. And do not forget, Russia also enjoyed the technical expertise and recruitment of German rocket program scientists and engineers. I believe more German scientists and engineers capture by Soviet than the USA.

"We see the results of Wernher von Braun's work on the V-2 for the Nazis at Mittelwerk and Peenemünde, and his final activities within Germany during the last years of the Second World War, as both American and Soviet forces race to capture German rocket technology. When the Americans gain the upper hand by recovering von Braun and most of his senior staff, along with all their technical documents and much other materiel, we see Sergei Korolev's release from the Gulag to act as the Soviets' rocketry expert alongside former colleague Valentin Glushko, and how he is set to work bringing Soviet rocket technology up to date with that of von Braun, working with what material and personnel are left after von Braun's escape to the US."

Watch the video and educated yourself, myself. I don't have time to argue with you when you don't have enough knowledge on the matter.

 

[xunzi]

Did I said you said so?

The charge of 'putting words' into another's mouth is cheap to make and equally easy to bring forth to distract others from the fallacies of one's own argument. Your argument here is that somehow the US is so severely bereft of intellectual capital in the field of rocketry that only a foreigner, be he German or Chinese, could remedy.

Nice try but you are one who trying to put words in my mouth. Let stick to one subject and that is the how the USA won the Space Race and who is that one single biggest contribution to the program and that is von Braun.

I read them and probably have a better understanding of it than you do.

Take you own source, for example...

Nope you didn't. This, here, tell me you are clueless about the Space Race.

If Werner von Braun was so crucial in the field of rocketry and that if the Soviets had him the Moon landing would have been done by Soviet astronaut, then why did the Soviets leapt ahead of the US with Sputnik when the US had von Braun and so many other German engineers? What happened? The lederhosens were too tight on those guys? Too much lagers and sauerkraut?

Werner von Braun was made direct or NASA as consequence of this event. Do you know what is the primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' of any organization? From your argument, the answer is clearly 'No'.

When I was active duty, our squadron CO was a mediocre pilot but an excellent-borderline-outstanding leader/administrator. When he flew, he had no problem reducing himself to being someone else's wingman if the guy is a superior pilot. He eventually was selected 'below the zone' to full colonel. All while being a mediocre fighter pilot among fellow pilots. When general officers fly to maintain proficiency and keep their flight pay, they have to fly only a few hours a month and they fly in the rear cockpit or as a co-pilot in the right seat. Back in WW II, enlisted pilots in both German and US air forces were often element leads due to their superior flying skills regardless of their status on the ground. If the aircraft is multi-engined, the enlisted pilot is often the aircraft commander and gave orders to his officers.

The primary role of a 'director' or 'administrator' is not to be a super engineer or super lawyer or super pilot or super teacher or super whatever but the guardian of the organization's mission. A school's principal is such a person. He is not expected to teach but to make sure teachers do their jobs and that they have resources available so they can do their jobs. It would help if the principal came from the teaching ranks but essentially not necessary. It was not von Braun's daily duties in NASA to dart from department to department giving engineers brilliant and unheard of technical advice and relevation gleamed from his days back in Germany. Everything he knew of rocketry from Germany, he gave to the US by the time he was made NASA's director.

NASA's accomplishments belongs to the US from Americans of all origins and ultimately their origins does not matter. If the Saturn V had problems, it was low to mid level engineers who remedied those problems, not Werner von Braun. The most he probably did was to keep leadership of issues, from budget to manpower to technical, so that the organization's mission will not be distracted when there are competing priorities from the many departments.

The kind of mythology you are trying to impart to von Braun belongs in North Korea and China. Your emphasis on von Braun's German ethnicity is nothing but a feeble attempt to downplay America's accomplishment in any way possible, worst of all tactics is through racial division.

Here is your answer...

"Despite the work on the Redstone rocket, the twelve years from 1945 to 1957 were probably some of the most frustrating for von Braun and his colleagues. In the Soviet Union, Sergei Korolev and his team of scientists and engineers plowed ahead with several new rocket designs and the Sputnik program, while the American government was not very interested in von Braun's work or views and only embarked on a very modest rocket-building program. In the meantime, the press tended to dwell on von Braun's past as a member of the SS and the slave labor used to build his V-2 rockets."

The US never took his rocket work serious until they fell behind the Soviet. And do not forget, Russia also enjoyed the technical expertise and recruitment of German rocket program scientists and engineers. I believe more German scientists and engineers capture by Soviet than the USA.

"We see the results of Wernher von Braun's work on the V-2 for the Nazis at Mittelwerk and Peenemünde, and his final activities within Germany during the last years of the Second World War, as both American and Soviet forces race to capture German rocket technology. When the Americans gain the upper hand by recovering von Braun and most of his senior staff, along with all their technical documents and much other materiel, we see Sergei Korolev's release from the Gulag to act as the Soviets' rocketry expert alongside former colleague Valentin Glushko, and how he is set to work bringing Soviet rocket technology up to date with that of von Braun, working with what material and personnel are left after von Braun's escape to the US."

Watch the video and educated yourself, my friend. I don't have time to argue with you when you don't have enough knowledge on the matter.

 

[xunzi]

Again, where did I say anything about him being born American? Read English better and stop misquoting me.

I said the overwhelming MAJORITY of men in the photo are pure-blood Americans, and that is a fact, and the person you are referencing was an immigrant, like all Americans if you go back only 400 years.

Werner Von Brauhn is American; his children are American, his grandchildren, etc.

Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.

Again, where did I say anything about him being born American? Read English better and stop misquoting me.

I said the overwhelming MAJORITY of men in the photo are pure-blood Americans, and that is a fact, and the person you are referencing was an immigrant, like all Americans if you go back only 400 years.

Werner Von Brauhn is American; his children are American, his grandchildren, etc.

Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.

Again, where did I say anything about him being born American? Read English better and stop misquoting me.

I said the overwhelming MAJORITY of men in the photo are pure-blood Americans, and that is a fact, and the person you are referencing was an immigrant, like all Americans if you go back only 400 years.

Werner Von Brauhn is American; his children are American, his grandchildren, etc.

Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.

 

[Wright]

Germans always were a gigantic chunk of the american populace. In fact the US was close to making German the official language.

This Chinese guy thinks Germans are secondary freeloaders like His kin, when it was the germanics who built the US into what it is today.

 

[Audio]

Listen, yankee! Did I said China space program is indigenous? We are talking about Rocketry here okay? Pay attention to what I said or just get the **** out of my face and shut up. I'm getting very irritated with your idiot comment regarding the father of modern space program and your attempt to demonize my country.

If you are talking about the Soviet R2. Don't forget, that is also a reverse engineer of Nazi German. Nazi German rocket program is the most advance and both the USA and Soviet benefit immensely in their acquisition of their expertise and knowledge.

lol, little chi bot. You are trying to imply throughout this thread there was some great contribution of Chinese scientists to the Voyager programme. Which are just filthy lies. Paid for by the CCP.

Here is a prime example:

Rocketry is an invention of ethnic Nazi German and Ethnic Han Chinese.

As if rocket engines in the 20th century about which this thread is about had anything to do with ancient concepts. LOL! Just another lame attempt to propagate China everywhere.

Also another of your blunders:

Did I said China space program is indigenous?

While two pages back:

You keep propagating that **** again. Give evidence that Chinese rockets are Russian originated or shut up

This is nothing new from you to be honest, in the previous thread we debated you already shown signs of senility and lack of understanding what it is to stand by what you've said.
oh and so you understand what this means, in layman's terms:

• you put a claim up
• i debunk it
• you scream saying where did i claim that.
• i LOL!

 

[Audio]

Oi you Chubby Bunny* don't take digs at my Chinese Brethren !

I find it hilarious you felt the urge to run in and help the filthy liar.

 

[Nowruz]

Germans always were a gigantic chunk of the american populace. In fact the US was close to making German the official language.

This Chinese guy thinks Germans are secondary freeloaders like His kin, when it was the germanics who built the US into what it is today.

Chinese = Good

German = Bad

 

[Nowruz]

Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.


Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.


Like I told you, he is considered an immigrant who became a naturalized American. He had no choice but to join America, for his family and own safety. Here is a tidbit on his experience living and working in America.

"Von Braun would later write he found it hard to develop a "genuine emotional attachment" to his new surroundings. His chief design engineer Walther Reidel became the subject of a December 1946 article "German Scientist Says American Cooking Tasteless; Dislikes Rubberized Chicken,' exposing the presence of von Braun's team in the country and drawing criticism from Albert Einstein and John Dingell. Requests to improve their living conditions such as laying linoleum over their cracked wood flooring were rejected.[51] Von Braun remarked that "...at Peenemünde we had been coddled, here you were counting pennies..." At the age of 26, von Braun had thousands of engineers who answered to him, but was now answering to "pimply" 26 year-old Major Jim Hamill who possessed an undergraduate degree in engineering. His loyal Germans still addressed him as Herr Professor, but Hamill addressed him as Wernher and never bothered to respond to von Braun's request for more materials, and every proposal for new rocket ideas was dismissed.

Xunzi my Chinese brother who is that in your avatar?

Dont forget we Iranians are always with our Chinese brothers.

Iran&China against the West

 

[gambit]

Nope you didn't. This, here, tell me you are clueless about the Space Race.

Watch the video and educated yourself, myself. I don't have time to argue with you when you don't have enough knowledge on the matter.

Speak for yourself...

NOVA | Wernher von Braun?s Legacy

Before then the true foundation of his career had not been space but rather the interest of nation-states in the revolutionary strategic potential of the ballistic missile. What he had to offer was not his space plans but rather his "indisputable genius" for the management of huge military-industrial engineering projects. As a designer of nuts-and-bolts rocket technology, he was no better than many others, but as a manager he had few peers. He had a vision of how to build a giant engineering organization for producing such a radical new technology.

Wernher von Braun became more of a leader than an engineer by the time the German V2 program got underway.

Want some more...???

Goddard went further, developing the world's first liquid-fuel rocket, but he was a poor engineer and one constitutionally unsuited to leading a larger group.

Shocking, ain't it? Robert Goddard is honestly exposed as a 'poor engineer' and mentally unsuited as a leader. And Wernher von Braun explained as a mediocre engineer.

It fell to the second generation of rocket and space enthusiasts—chief among them being von Braun and Sergei Korolev [the Soviet engineer behind Sputnik]—to realize the founders' vision by serving their governments as engineering managers in the development of ballistic missiles, then by selling those governments on the idea of spaceflight.

What frustrated von Braun while he was with the US Army's ballistic missile program was its limited vision, not its engineering capabilities and potential. If you can build a suborbital vehicle, you can build a fully orbital one. But that was not in the US Army's interests at that time. You can have all the tools enough to build a Formula racer but if your vision and assignment is a bicycle, what are you going to do? Which part of 'manager' escaped you?

Take your racial nit-picking to China where it belongs.

 

[xunzi]

lol, little chi bot. You are trying to imply throughout this thread there was some great contribution of Chinese scientists to the Voyager programme. Which are just filthy lies. Paid for by the CCP.

Here is a prime example:



As if rocket engines in the 20th century about which this thread is about had anything to do with ancient concepts. LOL! Just another lame attempt to propagate China everywhere.

Also another of your blunders:

Listen Yankee! When I said something, you got to listen. It's true that Han Chinese started Rocket first. The idea of rocketry technology started by us even though our original idea of gun-powder rocket never materialized. But the idea and concept is already in place. Now in modern term, I gave you two names (one ethnic German, one ethnic Han-Chinese) as someone who in the 20th century were leading Rocket Scientist. Please look those two names and what contribution they make to Rocket Science.

While two pages back:



This is nothing new from you to be honest, in the previous thread we debated you already shown signs of senility and lack of understanding what it is to stand by what you've said.
oh and so you understand what this means, in layman's terms:

• you put a claim up
• i debunk it
• you scream saying where did i claim that.
• i LOL!

Rocket does not equal WHOLE SPACE PROGRAM! PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. None of our modern Rocket (Long-March family) got any help from the Soviet Union. It was developed during period of intense Sino-Soviet Split.

Now, if you don't know anything. It would be a good idea to shut up because at this point, I'm getting very irritate and tiring to talking to a dumbass who had no knowledge on the history of Rocket history, Space program history.

Xunzi my Chinese brother who is that in your avatar?

Dont forget we Iranians are always with our Chinese brothers.

Iran&China against the West

An unorthodox Confucian ancestor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi

 

[xunzi]

Speak for yourself...

NOVA | Wernher von Braun?s Legacy

Wernher von Braun became more of a leader than an engineer by the time the German V2 program got underway.

Want some more...???


Shocking, ain't it? Robert Goddard is honestly exposed as a 'poor engineer' and mentally unsuited as a leader. And Wernher von Braun explained as a mediocre engineer.


What frustrated von Braun while he was with the US Army's ballistic missile program was its limited vision, not its engineering capabilities and potential. If you can build a suborbital vehicle, you can build a fully orbital one. But that was not in the US Army's interests at that time. You can have all the tools enough to build a Formula racer but if your vision and assignment is a bicycle, what are you going to do? Which part of 'manager' escaped you?

Take your racial nit-picking to China where it belongs.

LOL You are such a joke. Without his V2 Rocket technology sample, there wouldn't be such a rapid development in Space Program or Missile Program. He already provided the blueprint. It is easy to build something if you have the blueprint to modify and reverse engineer by the contemporary engineers of his time.

First of all, Robert Goddard's contribution to liquid fuel rocket paved the way for Modern Rocket but it is very raw and needs refinement from von Braun's rocket work. Secondly I never deny his contribution but to say he's playing a leading figurere role in the US's space race and rocket technology is off the book, my friend. Lastly my friend, watch the video.

 

[Indo-guy]

LOL You are such a joke. Without his V2 Rocket technology sample, there wouldn't be such a rapid development in Space Program or Missile Program. He already provided the blueprint. It is easy to build something if you have the blueprint to modify and reverse engineer by the contemporary engineers of his time.

First of all, Robert Goddard's contribution to liquid fuel rocket paved the way for Modern Rocket but it is very raw and needs
refinement from von Braun's rocket work. Secondly I never deny his contribution but to say he's playing a leading figurere role in the US's space race and rocket technology is off the book, my friend. Lastly my friend, watch the video.

@gambit , @Audio

China's nuclear, missile , space programme is based on beg , borrow and steal tactics....

And these tactics continue even today ....


here is the proof !



" Without Soviet assistance, it would not have been possible for China to make rapid progress in its nuclear and missile endeavours. Some senior Chinese still alive in 1985 blamed Mao for the collapse of the Sino-Soviet alliance. One military leader even admitted, "We should apologise to Moscow."
Marshal Nie Rongzhen acknowledged China's immense debt to the Soviet Union. According to him, the Russians provided China with prototypes of several kinds of guided missiles, aircraft, and other military equipment and relevant technical data."

Source : Lewis and Litai, op. cit., pp. 63-4.





" China also sought Soviet assistance in the development of missile technology. Under the New Defence Technical Accord of October 15, 1957, Khruschev sent an Army missile battalion with two R-2 missiles (code-named SS-2 in the West), with a range of 590 kilometres, and their associated launching equipment. The nuclear warhead China was then developing was heavier than R-2's throw-weight limit of 950 kilograms. Blueprints and technical documents in 10,151 volumes and missiles were also sent to China for manufacturing, testing, and launching purposes. Soviet missile engineers arrived in Beijing to help China set up its missile industry. China purchased 12 more R-2s. This marked the beginning of China's ballistic missile programme. The missile was now called 1059.

The Soviet Union refused to supply R-12 (its code name in the West was SS-4) because, as a rule, it did not transfer state-of-the-art weapons to allies before its own deployment of at least two more advanced systems. This did not deter the Chinese from obtaining the technology even if it had to be done in an underhand manner. Chinese students studying at the Aviation Institute, Moscow, had acquired a rudimentary knowledge of the missile. This provided the basis for the dongfeng (East Wind) DF-1 missile.

Those students learned more about R-5 because it was included in their courses and was displayed during the October 1957 parade in the Red Square. They copied restricted data and notes and questioned Soviet experts in order to extract vital information about the missile. It was not on the authorised list of sales to China because the Soviet Rocket Forces had deployed its follow-on model, the R-7 that had launched the Soviet Sputnik on October 4, 1957.

Source :
John Wilson Lewis and Hua Di, "China's Ballistic Missiles: Technologies, Strategies, Goals",
International Security, vol. 17, no. 2, pp. 13-4.

For those who doubt veracity and authenticity of Source

Hua Di is one of the top-ranking Chinese missile scientists. With the blessings of the Chinese government, Hua began in the 1980s a long association with the Centre for International Security and Cooperation at Stanford University. He left for a short visit to China on December 31,1997 and was arrested shortly after arrival in Beijing. Accused of revealing Chinese secrets, Hua was recently sentenced to 15 years in prison. ( Mike Moore, "The Kafkaesque case of Hua Di", Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, November/December 1999, pp. 12-14 and Mike Moore "Hua Di convicted", Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists, January/February 2000, p.17.)



" Despite worsening Sino-Soviet relations, Khrushchev authorised the sale in December 1959 of R-11 FM as well as the Golf submarine on which it could be deployed. It was the only Soviet missile capable of hitting targets in the United States. This was also the last major Soviet weapons system received by China"

Source : John Wilson Lewis and Hua Di, op. cit., pp. 31-2




The Soviets provided the Chinese with a nuclear reactor, a cyclotron and fissionable material. (Lewiss and Xue, 41)

These accords also included a geological survey for uranium in exchange for the Chinese supplying raw materials to the Soviets.
In the initial stages of the nuclear project Chinese scientists and planners stressed the need for the “vigorous assistance” of the Soviets. (Ibid., 48)
The Soviets, according to Davis and Xue, felt compelled to give the Chinese more than they were comfortable in doing, because their position among socialist countries was deteriorating. (Ibid., 62)
The Soviets directly aided Chinese scientists with the deployment of Russian experts and advisers, blueprints, machinery and scientific journals; the Chinese also indirectly pushed for scientific growth out of intrinsic strategic concerns.
Chinese scientists of the Communist period were much more deliberate at acquiring as much as they could from the Soviets before the 1960 Sino-Soviet split.
Sino-Soviet relationship deteriorated as time moved on and tensions between the Chinese and the Soviets grew worse. The Soviets pulled out early on during the bomb project, but they had provided enough materials and schematics so that the Chinese could reverse engineer and innovate the necessary procedures and components to build a bomb.
The following Sino-soviet split period would be one of counterproductive populist science and general decline that would last until Deng Xiaoping’s reforms in 1978.
Sino-Soviet Scientific Collaboration B Y K E V I N H O

Kevin's Work



" Marshal Nie Rongzhen, veteran of the Long March who later became the overlord of China's scientific development including the nuclear enterprise, suggested to the Central Committee and the Central Military Commission that China should start its own "preparations for research to develop missiles, atomic bombs, new fighter planes and other sophisticated weapons, while striving to continue the negotiations with the Soviet Union, trying everything possible to get help." The Soviet government had agreed to train 50 missile specialists, and China "should make the most of this chance".

Source : Excerpts from Marshal Nie Rongzhen's memoirs, titled "How China Develops Its Nuclear Weapons", in Beijing Review, April 29, 1985, pp. 15-18.




" Soviet aid began to flow and in July 1953 about 10,000 metric tonnes of nuclear equipment and material were sent to China. Soviet experts helped in the setting up of a number of laboratories. In 1954 a Joint Institute of Nuclear Research was established in Dubna near Moscow with nuclear experts from 11 countries of the Socialist bloc. About 1100 Chinese scientists received training at this institute."

Morton H. Halperin, China and the Bomb (New York: Praeger, 1966), p.79. On Soviet nuclear assistance, see pp. 51, 71, 74, 75, 77, 78-82, 102-4, 130, and 160.



" Between 1955 and 1958 six accords were signed relating to Soviet assistance in the development of China's science, industry, and weapons programmes. These included joint surveys of Chinese uranium ores, supply of a nuclear reactor and a cyclotron, and aid in building China's nuclear research facilities and industries. The New Defence Technical Accord of October 15, 1957, however, was unusual in the history of the nuclear age; the Soviet Union promised to supply China with blueprints for, and a working prototype of, an atomic bomb and missiles, as well as related data."

Source : Lewis and Litai, op. cit.,-" China Build the Bomb" - p. 41. Stanford University Press







@xunzi
Now stop trolling .

There are relevant threads in Word Affairs section such as " Soviet Russia's contribution to China's Nuclear , Missile , Space programme "

" Role of espionage in Chinese Technology " etc where all these facts are discussed . If you have something to say with facts go and do there .

 

[Audio]

Listen Yankee! When I said something, you got to listen.

I see you finally started to quote from the CCP Manual.

Rocket does not equal WHOLE SPACE PROGRAM! PLEASE GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL. None of our modern Rocket (Long-March family) got any help from the Soviet Union. It was developed during period of intense Sino-Soviet Split.

Now, if you don't know anything. It would be a good idea to shut up because at this point, I'm getting very irritate and tiring to talking to a dumbass who had no knowledge on the history of Rocket history, Space program history.

Yes, Long March didn't get help from the USSR, it was done with the knowledge Qian brought from the US when he was booted due to anti communist purges in 1955.
But Soviets helped you extensively at the beginning, with jump starting the entire programme, training students, providing samples for studies etc......
In modern times, China leans heavily on Russian designs again, Shenzhou is based on Soyuz, Long March has a crew escape system identical to Russian with the deployable flaps (for example, US doesnt need flaps, neither on Saturn 5's escape system nor on the new planned SLS rocket). And that's only the stuff we can see on photos.

Oh and your irritation, that's only because you're trying to present a sugar coated version of events and it's not really working so you get all worked up. Your problem, i couldn't care less.

 

[Indo-guy]

I see you finally started to quote from the CCP Manual.




Yes, Long March didn't get help from the USSR, it was done with the knowledge Qian brought from the US when he was booted due to anti communist purges in 1955.
But Soviets helped you extensively at the beginning, with jump starting the entire programme, training students, providing samples for studies etc......
In modern times, China leans heavily on Russian designs again, Shenzhou is based on Soyuz, Long March has a crew escape system identical to Russian with the deployable flaps (for example, US doesnt need flaps, neither on Saturn 5's escape system nor on the new planned SLS rocket). And that's only the stuff we can see on photos.

Oh and your irritation, that's only because you're trying to present a sugar coated version of events and it's not really working so you get all worked up. Your problem, i couldn't care less.

Truth is that China continues to spy and steal US military secrets even today ....it has got most expansive espionage network.

increasing cyber-attacks from Chinese mainland on US universities and research institute is proof of that !!!



Surging Chinese Espionage Targets U. S. Space Components « AmericaSpace



The FBI is pursuing a growing number of Chinese agents trying to obtain and smuggle U. S. space system components into China for use in spacecraft being developed by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA).

“Multiple cases of economic espionage and theft of dual use and military technology have uncovered pervasive Chinese collection activities”, Army Lt. Gen. Ronald L. Burgess Jr. Director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) told the Senate Armed Services Committee Feb. 16.

“China has used its intelligence services to gather information via a significant network of agents and contacts utilizing a variety of methods to obtain U. S. technology to advance their defense industries, global command and control and strategic warfighting capabilities, the DIA director said in a formal Threat Assessment document and briefing to the Congress.

Key missile and stealth technology is also a target of increased Chinese espionage, Justice Dept prosecutions indicate.

Chinese economic espionage and smuggling has already involved secret technology from the Delta IV launch vehicle, space shuttle, the B-2 bomber and space radiation hardened components.

U. S. analysts agree that China is developing a broad range of new military spacecraft and that by smuggling in U. S. space components and designs is a way to increase the capability and reliability of these satellites.

Just this month a Chinese national was indicted by a federal grand jury in Colorado on charges of conspiracy and violations of the Munitions Control Act for allegedly attempting to ship to China hundreds of U. S. satellite computer chips packaged as baby formula.

The radiation hardened chips were bound for Shanghai, where they would have likely ended up inside spacecraft being developed by the PLA, according to documents involved in the case.


Rare image shows a Chinese Beidou navigation spacecraft being lowered into a vacuum chamber for testing. Photo Credit: China Defense Mashup.com

Chinese manufacturers have not yet mastered hardening microchips that are as well protected against space radiation as U. S. made chips. The lack of such protected circuits can be fatal to a spacecraft. For example, the Russians found that the recent failure their Phobos mission craft occurred because its circuits contained non radiation hardened chips.

The U. S. components involve in the most recent China case are radiation hardened “programmable read-only memory” (PROM) devices that facilitate the start-up of space based computer systems and also “static random access memory” (SRAM) devices to store information in space-based hard drives.

“China relies on foreign technology, acquisition of key dual-use components…to advance its military modernization,” says a 2011 Defense Dept. report to Congress.

China “also utilizes a large, well-organized network of enterprises, defense factories, affiliated research institutes, and computer network operations to facilitate the [smuggling] of sensitive U. S. information and export-controlled technology,” says the Defense Dept. report.

According to the grand jury indictment returned earlier this month in Colorado, federal investigators allege the man, Philip Chaohui He (aka Philip Hope) purchased more than 300 integrated circuits in May, 2011 from Aeroflex, a company in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Court papers state that Aeroflex employees grew suspicious of Mr. He’s motives for buying such components.

Mr. He planned to send the electronics to China in two shipments, one in July, 2011, and another in October, the indictment says.
According to the indictment, the first shipment allegedly contained the PROM computer chips. Mr. He allegedly smuggled those into China himself during the summer of 2011 by carrying them into Mexico with a co-conspirator, then flying them from Mexico City to Shanghai, federal authorities believe.

The second shipment that led to his arrest had the SRAM chips, the indictment says.

The indictment alleges that Mr. He drove to the port of Long Beach on Dec. 11, 2011 with the 200 radiation hardened SRAM integrated circuits worth nearly $550,000 in the trunk of his car. The chips were concealed in plastic infant formula containers inside five sealed boxes marked “baby milk powder” in Chinese, the indictment says.

The indictment alleges that at the port, Mr. He met two men, including one with a Chinese passport “in front of a docked ship bearing a Chinese flag. The Chinese flagged ship was registered to Zhenhua Port Machinery Co. Ltd. a subsidiary of the Chinese government owned corporation China Communications Construction”. The ship was scheduled to return to China in a few days.

After his arrest, he was extradited back to Colorado where if convicted he faces up to 35 years in prison and up to $1.5 million in fines on charges of conspiracy, attempted unlawful export and attempted smuggling of U. S. defense articles.


China’s most powerful satcom is the DFH-4 spacecraft bus. Photo Credit: China Defense Mashup.com

The Justice Dept. cited other cases of Chinese space component smuggling. Investigators from the FBI, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)and the Pentagon’s Defense Criminal Investigative Service (DCIS) have worked several recent important cases. They are:

Economic Espionage / Theft of Shuttle and Delta IV Secrets– According to the Justice Dept., NASA investigators and the FBI collaborated on the FBI arrest of Dongfan “Greg” Chung, a former Rockwell and Boeing engineer on charges of “economic espionage” and the shipment to China of restricted technology and Boeing trade secrets involving the space shuttle and the Delta IV launch vehicle. Chung has been sentenced to 15 years in prison and three years of close supervision after serving his term.

NASA and the FBI discovered that Chung served as an illegal agent of China for more than 30 years and kept more than 300,000 pages of Boeing secrets stashed in his home as part of his Chinese espionage mission. The Justice Dept. says the documents were shipped to China by mail, by ship and also routed by another U. S. based Chinese agent named Chi Mak. Shuttle and Delta IV secrets were also sent to China by diplomatic pouch from the Chinese Consulate in San Francisco, the Justice Dept. says. Chung also made several verbal briefings in China to government military and technology personnel.

More Radiation-Hardened Defense Components–On March 24, 2011, Lian Yang, a Chinese resident of Washington state, pleaded guilty to conspiring to violate the Arms Export Control Act by attempting to sell radiation hardened military and aerospace technology to China. Yang attempted to purchase and export from the United States to China 300 radiation-hardened, PROM programmable semiconductor devices that are used in satellites. The complaint alleges that Yang contemplated creating a shell company in the United States that would appear to be purchasing the parts, concealing the fact that the parts were to be shipped to China.

In another case, the Justice Dept says that two Chinese nationals, Hong Wei Xian, and Li Li, have pleaded guilty in federal court in Virginia for conspiring to violate the Arms Export Control Act by attempting to export more PROM circuits designed for satellite use. The pair is associated with the Beijing Space Science and Technology Development Company, China’s primary contractor for satellite and launch vehicle development. They have been sentenced to two years in prison.

Military Technical Data to China – Another Chinese man “Sixing Liu”, aka “Steve Liu,” of Deerfield, Ill., has been arrested in Chicago on a criminal charge of exporting defense-related technical data without a license. Liu, a native of China with a doctorate degree in electrical engineering, worked as a senior staff engineer for Space & Navigation, a New Jersey-based division of L-3 Communications.

He was part of a team that worked on precision navigation devices and other innovative components for the U.S. Defense Dept. In November 2010, he traveled to China and, upon his return to the United States later that month, federal inspectors found him to be in possession of a computer that contained hundreds of documents related to the company’s projects, as well as images of Liu making a presentation at a technology conference sponsored by the Chinese government. Many of the documents on his computer were marked as containing sensitive proprietary company information and/or export-controlled technical data which he carried into China and revealed to officials there.

Electronics Used in Military Radar & Electronic Warfare—In early 2011 Ms. Yufeing Wei was sentenced in the District of Massachusetts to 36 months in prison, while her co-defendant, Zhen Zhou Wu, was sentenced to 97 months in prison. Their company, Chitron Electronics, Inc. was fined $15.5 million. The pair and their company were convicted of conspiring for a period of more than ten years to illegally export sensitive U. S. components to China. They included military components and sensitive electronics used in military phased array radar, electronic warfare and missile systems. Several Chinese military entities were among those receiving the exported equipment, the Justice Dept. says.

Stealth Missile Exhaust Designs and B-2 bomber Data to China –Also in early 2011 a federal judge in the District of Hawaii sentenced Noshir Gowadia, 66, of Maui to 32 years in prison for communicating classified national defense information to China. Gowadia assisted the China in developing a low-signature cruise missile exhaust system capable of rendering a Chinese cruise missile resistant to detection by U. S. infrared missiles, the Defense Dept. report to Congress says. A jury also convicted Gowadia of three counts of illegally communicating classified information to China regarding lock-on range for infrared missiles that could be used to attack U.S. B-2 bombers. Gowadia was also convicted of unlawfully exporting classified information about the B-2, this country’s most highly classified aircraft.