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We made a goof, we fixed it, says US on India map

If this is your means to justify oppression you are a sick person indeed.

it's what the bhartis have been doing for decades.....fortunately, Pakistan will always be on the right side of history as far as Kashmir is concerned. That is why there is no animosity against Pakistan amongst majority of Kashmiris.....Pakistan is not perceived as an occupation force in the Muslim majority region
 
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http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA935.PDF

Here's a document for the guy who just wants stats. As if subtracting a couple hundred from the figures will makes a difference.



If this is your means to justify oppression you are a sick person indeed.

It is not a couple of hundred we are talking about. You claimed 10,000+ mass rapes in kashmir. You still havent substantiated it using accredited news agencies. Sorry, I am done now. And unlike you, when I say I am done, I mean it. Unles of course, you do bring in a credible source for the claim that I asked you to substantiate.

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:57 AM ----------

it's what the bhartis have been doing for decades.....fortunately, Pakistan will always be on the right side of history as far as Kashmir is concerned. That is why there is no animosity against Pakistan amongst majority of Kashmiris.....Pakistan is not perceived as an occupation force in the Muslim majority region

The entire Indian kashmir is a muslim majority region today. Pakistan is not perceived as an occupying force because PAKISTAN DOES NOT OCCUPY those parts. It has tried and failed.
 
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Yes yes, so just like saddam and mubarak, India is going to fail in kashmir, isn't it? Well, do you have an idea of when it will happen? You see, thats what your grandparents thought during the 50s, thats what they thought when they tried to invade kashmir in 65 (that all the kashmiris would welcome you), and thats what your parents thought later. So what do you think, will it happen soon? In this millenium? Or is your time frame eternity? Glad to know that pakistanis have this dream to keep them going as a nation. Countries that have nothing realistic to dream about or aspire for have to manufacture unattainable dreams and false promises.

Meanwhile kashmiris live and flourish as proud Indians.

A basic error of a few lines had the Indians running around like headless Chicken worried...it's gonna go...it's going.....hence no guessing who is clutching on to the straws. Being a victim of your own frivolous media, one can't blame you for thinking, something like Kashmir is holding us together, none the less it does inspire us to witness the obsession our neighbour holds for us.
Very few countries can actually claim this honour. !!
 
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A basic error of a few lines had the Indians running around like headless Chicken worried...it's gonna go...it's going.....hence no guessing who is clutching on to the straws. Being a victim of your own frivolous media, one can't blame you for thinking, something like Kashmir is holding us together, none the less it does inspire us to witness the obsession our neighbour holds for us.
Very few countries can actually claim this honour. !!

Of course, you didn't answer the question posed in the post that you replied to. Exactly when is your prediction going to happen?

Oh and by the way, it wasn't just Indians who were concerned about the error in the map. Pakistan tried to protest too, nobody listened to them!:yahoo:

So that headless chicken comment (whatever it is supposed to signify) applies equally to you.
 
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Baluchistan in not a disputed territory in the UN. I am not going off-topic. I said the Kashmiris have a right to decide for themselves what they want.

This thread is not about the right of self determination of Kashmiris..

---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 PM ----------

this is hilarious.....the indians make a thread on the subject then wait in agony, praying it will become a troll-fest...and then PDF's resident bhartis wonder why we laugh and ridicule them all the time

so the US stated that it wont be party to the bilateral dispute and it corrected a map to RIGHTLY show the territory as disputed.....so what's the problem here and what is there new to report? :what:

Nothing except some Pakistani wanna be participants in that troll fest posting out of context pictures and then throwing a hissy fit when answered with a similar out of context comments about Balochistan..

---------- Post added at 11:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 PM ----------

The picture or rather the writing is there on the wall for all to read and see, one can digest the facts or digress from reality.
Before the likes of Saddam, Mubarak or Qadafi met their fate, albeit, there were crowds chanting their support but one could never miss their smeared portraits to conclude all is not honky dory....much like the obvious messages left by the oppressed Kashmiris, which no amount of fancy quotes can render.

And your bleeding heart I assume does not have any thing to do with the disputed nature of the territory.. Since neither options in that dispute give the right of independence to Kashmir

---------- Post added at 11:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 PM ----------

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA935.PDF

Here's a document for the guy who just wants stats. As if subtracting a couple hundred from the figures will makes a difference.



If this is your means to justify oppression you are a sick person indeed.

I thought you were done :lol:

yeh pdf ka nasha hai dost.. Aasani se nahin jaayega

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 PM ----------

it's what the bhartis have been doing for decades.....fortunately, Pakistan will always be on the right side of history as far as Kashmir is concerned. That is why there is no animosity against Pakistan amongst majority of Kashmiris.....Pakistan is not perceived as an occupation force in the Muslim majority region

May be, thats why Kashmiri residents laid to waste the Operation Gibraltar of Pakistan by reporting the so called liberators that Pakistan infiltrated into Indian territory ;)
 
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In the real world this stuff does not matter ..As we know East Pakistan was not a disputed territory either ..yet today it is a seperate country ..whereas Kashmir despite being disputed continues to be part of India even after six decades.

East Pakistan was part of Pakistan at one point in time for barely 2 decades -until a state-sponsored rebel group exploited the situation there (a political situation) for their own nefarious purposes

Kashmir since Pakistan got its independence (a day before your independence) has been disputed territory and it will be treated as thusly until the time that the bilateral issue is resolved

the Kashmiri nationalists and anti-india resistance groups are a local phenomenon --and a reaction to india's illegal occupation of Kashmiri lands....therefore it is only natural that there will be resistance, and its only natural for defensive indians to pretend like Kashmir is indian territory --despite the ground realities (which we know very well -despite indias curbs on the media there)



In this world ..if you are a bigger, stronger , more power full economically, militarily or diplomatically ..you will undoubtedly have you way.

if that were the case, why the noise against Pakistani (and even Chinese) administered Kashmir? If india ''had her way'' then a 7 times smaller Pakistan wouldnt have a chance at administering Azad Kashmir; Chinese wouldnt be administering Aksai Chin, etc. etc.

incidentally, the ''bigger stronger'' india's biggest single threat is the raging insurgencies in the northeast (e.g. naxals) ---and this is according to your own PM Singh. . .seems to me (and perhaps some bhartis here can better inform me) the northeast insurgency is picking up steam as of late.

I'll give the same advice to indians which they gave to us, some years back. Consolidate and control your own territory first before trying to worry about affairs in Kashmir. Especially given the fact that anti-indian sentiment is already high in Kashmir and majority of the people there want nothing to do with hindustan


Ans US state dept altering its maps on Indian request despite Pakistani protests ..is a diplomatic victory for India.

i havent heard any Pakistani protests on this subject. . . .you are just delusional and think that a few corrected maps or a few words from Washington (which naturally, given deteriorating relations with Islamabad --is seeking new 'partners' in the region) will suddenly mean ''victory'' with a big ''V'' for hindustani diplomacy


at the end of the day, the ground realities are always what matters




kashmir-pak-flag.jpg


kashmir-protest.jpg




an indian-backed blackout of media and india's banning of international press in Kashmir is the only reason why fewer people know about the conflict. Luckily, the rise in social media and online file sharing sites (facebook, twitter, youtube, etc.) has ensured there is no TOTAL blackout.

it's no wonder that the occupation entity in Kashmir --which is all about democracy and all -- imposes the most draconian laws and regulations on Kashmiris....all in the name of ''security'' :lol:

---------- Post added at 10:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:15 PM ----------

The entire Indian kashmir is a muslim majority region today. Pakistan is not perceived as an occupying force because PAKISTAN DOES NOT OCCUPY those parts. It has tried and failed.

no need for us to ''occupy'' those regions because sooner or later perhaps, the Kashmiris (hard-liners and moderates) will continue to fight for their freedom on their own --independent of Pakistani aspirations
 
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http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/INDIA935.PDF

Here's a document for the guy who just wants stats. As if subtracting a couple hundred from the figures will makes a difference.




If this is your means to justify oppression you are a sick person indeed.

Unless i am blind or an delinquent who does not understand his own words ..pls do point out..where I have justified oppression..I have simple stated a fact of life ..that Pakistan being a smaller and weaker state can not have it way either diplomatically or militarily..when it comes to Kashmir.

If it tries to create problems for India in Kashmir..India will return the favor other parts of Pakistan..but I don't need to tell you this ..you have already had your East Pakistan .. courtesy your obsession with Kashmir.
 
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Unless i am blind or an delinquent who does not understand his own words ..pls do point out..where I have justified oppression..I have simple stated a fact of life ..that Pakistan being a smaller and weaker state can not have it way either diplomatically or militarily..when it comes to Kashmir.

If it tries to create problems for India in Kashmir..India will return the favor other parts of Pakistan..but I don't need to tell you this ..you have already had your East Pakistan .. courtesy your obsession with Kashmir.

Wish I could thank this post twice.. ;)
 
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no need for us to ''occupy'' those regions because sooner or later perhaps, the Kashmiris (hard-liners and moderates) will continue to fight for their freedom on their own --independent of Pakistani aspirations

Yes of course they will. Its only a matter of time. Say, in a thousand years from now. Or a hundred thousand. First pak tries to invade and occupy it by force, fails miserably every time, and then keeps telling this fairytale. Meanwhile, kashmiris continue to flourish happily as proud Indians, with all the freedom that comes from living in a free, prospering country. :cheers:
 
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Just a refresher (one of my initial posts on the forum)

Since the article is about 8 years old, it will be interesting to evaluate if the last 8 years have shown the hypothesis in the article to be correct or not. Lets try and have a healthy debate on this if possible. Also some of the comments in the article are provocative(it seems to be written by an indian muslim so no surprises there) but lets ignore those and focus on the over all theme only

To the Mods, I was not able to find a similar thread and hence started a new one. If I missed an existing one, then my apologies and request you to merge it with that one


The way you catch a monkey is quite simple. What you do is put a large, heavy jar with a mango or banana in it out in the open. The jar has a very small neck. Soon enough, a monkey will come along and stick his hand inside to grab the fruit. When he tries to draw his hand out he can't. The hand with the fruit is too large for the neck of the jar. The monkey could easily let go of the bait and escape, but they never do. Even when he sees the catcher with his net, he'll jump up and down and squeal ferociously, but he won't let go of the fruit. He simply can't. It's quite beyond his power. No one knows why, but that's the way it is, and that's how they catch the monkey.

(Source: Indian children's fable.)

The Pakistani elite have long justified their terrorism in India as a low cost solution to "bleeding India dry". Somewhere amidst the grand visions of these strategic thinkers, the Pakistanis missed the rather prosaic fact that during the decade long terror war, India not only didn't "bleed white" but in fact did far better than it had ever done.

Pakistani spent the last decade of the Twentieth Century screeching the battle cry of Jehad, creating the Taliban, supporting Osama bin Laden and waging a war of terror on the people of India, Iran, Afghanistan, Russia, the Central Asian states and even China. Meanwhile the elites attempted to loot everything in sight. India, on the other hand, quietly went about producing the fastest economic growth since Independence and, among other things, become a world power in software. Pakistan's strategic gambit in Kashmir failed spectacularly and brought Pakistan to the verge of state failure and being declared a terrorist state, it came astonishingly close to collective suicide during it's years of delusion.

We put forward the hypothesis that India, faced with the threat of a bankrupt, unstable and permanently recalcitrant neighbor which could soon join the list of failed states, and acting in the interests of it's own security, engaged the "monkey trap" as India's solution to the half century long Kashmir dispute and Pakistan problem. We do not however, provide any supporting evidence. The "trap" is a hypothesis, no more.

The essence of the monkey trap is its simplicity, which in turn is based on the limited strategic options available to Pakistan and the national character of its elite. Pakistan is caught in a self-destructive cycle with no way out, trapped between rhetoric and reality. It cannot abandon the anti-Indian crusade and Kashmir because too much has been invested into it and without the Indian enemy they have no identity and no method to maintain their rentier control of the Pakistani state. This fundamental basis of Pakistan can be understood within the context of the earlier section.

The monkey trap, in our opinion, was the only method available to India to engage and permanently destroy an unhinged enemy, and played almost perfectly to India's strengths and to Pakistani weaknesses. All that it is necessary for India to do is to stand firm, make no significant concessions, and quietly watch Pakistan's long slide into irrelevance, as it seeks ever more desperate ways to obtain that ever elusive "victory" over India.

It does not require the political or economic penalty that a major war would have, but its effect on Pakistan has been just as destructive. It allowed Pakistan's elites to flay away pointlessly at a controlled target, Kashmir, while the Indian economy continued to outgrow it's previous growth bounds. The strength of the trap lies in the fact that, given the character of the Pakistani state and its ruling elites, it requires India to do the absolute minimum for it's success. In fact, India has to do nothing more other than protect it's citizens and territory for the trap to work. It is a passive strategy and consequently fits in well with India's democracy. Furthermore, it is virtually impossible to tell a politician, do nothing, and you will triumph, and NOT expect them to overwhelmingly accept that as a "brilliant" Fabian like strategy.

India did, and the trap, in our opinion, worked.

It should be noted that, it is irrelevant whether the trap was deliberately set to bait Pakistan, or whether it evolved as India realized that Pakistan may have over-reached itself. It is also irrelevant if, as far as India is concerned, there is no "trap" at all. The end result is the same. Pakistan is irrevocably locked into an impossible endeavor and caught in a cycle it cannot withdraw from while it's society and nation rapidly slips into an abyss and India grows from strength to strength.

Pakistan could, of course, in principle let go the fruit and remove it's hand from the jar. However, just as the mythical monkey does not have the slightest idea why it's trapped, the structure of Pakistan's elite society precludes any such behavior. More over any such move would endanger their control of Pakistan, relinquishing the fruit cannot happen unless the Pakistani elite are collectively willing to let go of their control. Additionally, if this was possible, the elite would have done so long ago, but Pakistan's ideology comes into play, and to "let go” negates the very existence of Pakistan itself.

After 9-11: Enter the Gorilla
A strategy such as the Monkey Trap would obviously require an end game. 9-11 however, made all such calculations redundant. In this section, we shall argue that the essence of the trap has not in fact changed, but may have even greater benefits than before 9-11.

In order to understand the role of the trap in the post 9-11 world, it's necessary to understand that the US is well aware of Pakistan's links with Osama bin Laden's Al-Qaeda network, the Taliban and Pakistan's sponsorship of terrorism in Kashmir. The testimony of Vincent Cannistraro, the former CIA Chief of Counter terrorism Operations and Analysis, before the House Committee on International Relations and the work done by Yossef Bodansky, the former Director of the Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare of the U.S. Congress, makes this clear [26] , [27] .

The Pakistani government's links to these terrorists are now so well known, that even Pakistan's friends in the US have admitted, as the Brooking Institute's Stephen Cohen did recently, that if bin Laden were to be "found" by the Pakistani's, then;

... there will be a corpse of Osama bin Laden. That would solve the Pakistani problem. Somebody would get a reward. You don't want him talking and explaining exactly who he got his support from. Also the-you know, so I think his guards and people around him, especially the Afghans are-you know, he has more to fear from them [the Pakistani's] than, perhaps, from American bombing in the next few days. [28]

Since the 9-11 attacks, Pakistan seems to once again have become an American "ally". Our argument is that as far as Pakistan's status as a failed state and it's entanglement in the monkey trap is concerned, 9-11 changed nothing despite the rhetoric. This claim is quite easy to defend. Our fundamental argument is that nothing has changed because the rentier-elite and it's ideological framework, the Nazria-e-Pakistan is the fundamental source of all of Pakistan's problems and this elite is exactly where it was prior to 9-11, firmly in charge.

The elite is intelligent, nimble and amoral enough to take advantage of the US's blood loss on September 11 that Pakistan did so much to cause. We do not claim that "Pakistani's are stupid", or incapable of changing. We simply claim that the "system" in Pakistan does not allow them to make any more than cosmetic changes. This will not save Pakistan from becoming a failed state, just as Gorbachev’s “tinkering” with the Soviet system failed to save the Soviet Union. The only change that could make a permanent difference is if Pakistan abandons it's ideology and it's Kashmir claim. Neither can happen.

Therefore, we contend that 9-11 made no fundamental changes to the Pakistani elite, except for the vast amount of humiliation they had to bear as the US, after greasing them with the IMF, forced them to bend and receive whatever the US decided to insert into their body politic. Of course, this entry of the US, per se a 1000 pound gorilla, does change the dynamics in the subcontinent.

However, as the massive mobilization by the Indian Armed Forces showed, India's coercive ability within it's own backyard is enormous. The force displayed seemed to be designed to send multiple messages. On behalf of the US, the mobilization ensured that the Pakistani Army was forced to move to forward positions, putting the entire PA within the open persuasion range of the USAF's "daisy cutters". This gave Pakistan a certain level of incentive to co-operate with the US, and also ensured that the US's Special Forces do not trip over them along the Afghan borders as they try to "help".

On another level, the mobilization also sent a clear message by India to not only the Pakistanis, who are already aware of the "messages" the Indian Armed Forces are capable of sending, but more importantly, to the US and anyone else interested. The message said that if India was forced into war, it would do so on a scale and size that would alter the regional agenda towards Indian geo-political objectives instead of the American ones. This is not a trivial point, and was succinctly stated by Indian's former Prime Minister, V.P Singh, " If there is another war, we will not stop until our strategic aims are obtained."

It is here that Pakistani begging for US intervention to "force" India to make concessions preferably regarding Kashmir is nothing short of astonishing. It never seems to occur to Pakistani “strategists” and “intellectuals" that except for all out war, (in which the US would risk billions of dollars, thousands of casualties a depressed world economy and a potential nuclear exchange), there is no possible way for this to happen. Exactly why the US should opt for war against India on Pakistan's behalf is never clear. This lack of understanding of the real world is India's greatest weapon against Pakistan.

India is clearly not interested in war, not even against Pakistan. After all, why should India expend blood, sweat and treasure taking down Pakistan?. If the Americans want to do it, its perfectly fine from an Indian perspective. The US has accomplished more in Afghanistan, than India ever could. And there is every reason for India to ensure that the US finishes the job before getting distracted by Iraq. This leads, quite serendipitously to perhaps the most important role of the Monkey Trap; it's generalization.

Pakistan currently provides the most tempting fruit available for the neighborhood’s newest and largest primate. Pakistan, a nuclear armed "moderate" Islamic state, controlled or influenced by the US a la Egypt or Turkey, and a potential check on Indian, Iranian, Russian and Chinese influence in Central Asia is a tempting ally. It remains to be seen whether or not the Americans have realized that way madness lies. Perhaps, the Americans will be successful. On the other hand, a failing Pakistan is a clear and present danger to the US as it's nuclear weapons may fall into the hands of non-state actors. The temptation to act pre-emptively would be overwhelming.

Then the Monkey Trap would morph into the Gorilla Trap.

Either way, India stands to gain. As it would lock the US into doing precisely what India wants, to clean up the Pakistani mess at their own cost. All in all, India benefits whether America succeeds or fails. [/I]
 
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If Kashmir matters so much to Pakistan why did they give parts of it away to China?

If Pakistan cares so much about Muslims why are there no formal protest against the oppression of Muslims in china?

If Pakistan is having the same problems with unrest in Balochistan that India has had in Kashmir, does that mean both countries should be partitioned further? Are Kashmiris in India better off or are Balochis in Pakistan?

Just some simple questions I have for Pakistani members who love to bash India.
 
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